Ponds - 1st NBA game

[room112]

I guess it's all subjective how you define "all time greats". If you're going to say we only have 10 all time greats in the programs history, then sure Shamorie won't be on the list. But to me, he's one of the greatest scorers in program history which is proven by his play and the stats, and deserves to be recognized as such. 

There were times when Shamorie's volume shooting carried us to victory, and there times when it cost us games. Chris could have scored 40 points per  game if he had Shamorie's lack of conscience and there was a 3 point line. 


 

I'm not saying Mullin and Ponds are in the same category, heck who would even argue that? But in reality who is in the same category as Mullin? Pretty much nobody, and that should not be a barrier to entry into the all time great, or else we should cancel the rest of the list. 

Ponds shot 45% from the field his junior year, and 35% from 3. It's not like he was some volume chucker. He definitley took ill advised shots at times, I'm not denying that. But he finsihed averaging nearly 20 ppg in college, that's not an easy task to accomplish. Had he returned for his senior season, who knows what his stats would have ended up like. 

 

[monte]

I guess it's all subjective how you define "all time greats". If you're going to say we only have 10 all time greats in the programs history, then sure Shamorie won't be on the list. But to me, he's one of the greatest scorers in program history which is proven by his play and the stats, and deserves to be recognized as such. 

There were times when Shamorie's volume shooting carried us to victory, and there times when it cost us games. Chris could have scored 40 points per  game if he had Shamorie's lack of conscience and there was a 3 point line. 



 

I'm not saying Mullin and Ponds are in the same category, heck who would even argue that? But in reality who is in the same category as Mullin? Pretty much nobody, and that should not be a barrier to entry into the all time great, or else we should cancel the rest of the list. 

Ponds shot 45% from the field his junior year, and 35% from 3. It's not like he was some volume chucker. He definitley took ill advised shots at times, I'm not denying that. But he finsihed averaging nearly 20 ppg in college, that's not an easy task to accomplish. Had he returned for his senior season, who knows what his stats would have ended up like. 

I didn't mean to suggest that you were comparing the 2. My point was just that more points don't necessarily equate to better team results. For instance, IMO Champ's points all come within the flow of the game. He takes what the D gives him. I rarely if ever find myself questioning his shot selection or his decisions with the ball. That was not the case a lot of the time with Ponds, who often forced things on offense. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. He'd get his points, but many times it was at the expense of the flow of the game. At times I found him very exciting, other times  I found his style of play (on both ends) extremely frustrating. 
 

 

[boo haarvey]

Let's be real here, Shamorie was a very good college player for us, but he does not compare to the all time greats. Most of whom were All-American caliber players.  Was Shamorie ever even 1st team All Big East?  His lack of effort and decision making often had us very frustrated.  My sense is that CMA would have taken him if he wanted to come here, but probably would not have pursued him very hard coming out of high school. He's the antithisis of a typical CMA type of player. Because of his size, Shamorie was going to have a hard time making the NBA under any circumstance. But by all accounts, his lack of commitment, especially during the off season, hurt him tremendously. For that, Shamorie deserves most of the blame. By comparison, I never got the sense that was a problem for his teammate Justin Simon. So clearly the opporitunitiy was there for any kid who wanted to work hard to make himself in to a better player. There have been a lot of players who have played for our storied program who gave 100%, not just the all time greats, and we know they became the very best player they could be during thier time here. Shamorie was not one of those kids. 

He was first team All Big East his last two years.  The kid was never even close to chunky.  If anything, he was too skinny.  Also, there is no question that Mullin, his Dad and the pundits all raved about his change in diet his final year.  Whether the last point is true, who knows.  I think there is a fair amount of revisionist history and speculation among many in this board.  What we do know is that Ponds had a good junior season but it wasn't what we all hoped it would be.  Seems like there are a number of reasons foe that.
 

 

[boo haarvey]

Wow! I'm surprised there is so much negative about Shamorie . He doesn't deserve it . He was our Best Player for the 3 years here and for most of it , played with players who weren't at his talent level . Simon was a very good 4 tool player but , a train wreck as a shooter . He was pretty easily defensed by opponents . Great kid , great defender , rebounder , jump out of the building but , missed a awful lot of easy shots . Clark , also great team player but , very streaky shooter . When he was good , he was very ,very good but , had a lot of 2-14 shooting days too . And , fouled out a lot . Thus , the Scoring load and playmaking role fell to Ponds , who every one defended aggtesively . Ponds was certainly a All BE player and almost won ROY in hhs first season and was BE Pre Season POY his last year .  Not to include him among the top players here , is just not fair .  I'm only speculating but , if Ponds options were to play Overseas in a Pandemic year , it might be more a risk than worth it . Just saying ..  I think Mullin , Richmond , St Jean coached Ponds to the fullest extent . Picking on his weight and perceived lack of work ethic demean a player who left it all in the Court every game .  He earned his spot on our Wall of Honor and certainly among the top 5 players of the last 15 -20 years . Maybe even the best Player of the last  20 years . 

You are surprised but I am not. Just look at the history of our fan base over the last 40 years we love players who work their buts off to improve their game.  Be it Chris Mullin, Marc Jackson , Jayson Williams, Ron Artest, Matt Brust , Tyrone Grant, D Harrison , Posh Alexander, Dylan Wusu and I could go on and on. That is what this fan base appreciates first and foremost. 
Shamorie just does not fit into that group. He was not in great shape, did not work overly hard in the off season and was preoccupied with his Instagram posts. He lacked the humility of the players I named and the many others who I failed to list as my point had been made. 
As for teammates who were not at his talent level it has been a long time since we had a team of top 50 players. However, he was surrounded by some very good talent. Tariq has had a sniff or two in the league, Simon was a top 30 player coming out of high school, Clark top 50, Bashir a jc aa , Lovett top 100, so to say he did not have good talent around him is just false. His teams certainly lacked a good bench. 
Was he a volume scorer on a mediocre team he certainly was. Was he one of our best players over the last 20 years he certainly was, but to characterize him with Malik, Walter, Ron A, Sonny Dove, Chris, Tony J, just to name a few, does not hold water with me. 

What he accomplished, I would agree with you.   I just never heard  him being criticized by those close to the program in the manner that he has been criticized here.   Was he an elite player compared to our all time greats.  I can't comment on guys I never saw.   Alan Seiden was a smart ass who basically annoyed himself out of the league for the St. Louis Hawks,  You'd have to be almost 80 to remember Tony Jackson.   I missed Sonny Dove amd never saw Mel Davis as a collegiate player.    

But to be completely fair, Ponds came here with zero supporting cast with a roster that has zero sustainability.   What pisses me about the NR compliments about handing Lavin an NCAA team, was that he couldn't win with a better roster (Anthony Mason Jr) the year before, and it was a messed up roster of all seniors.   By Jordan and Obekpa leaving Mullin started from ground zero.   Shamorie came in year two and he and Lovett were the catalysts towards program resurgence, which is no easy task as we have seen this year.   Had Lovett not left, it's possible, Ponds may have seen the NCAA tournament in 3 years.   He was definitely the recipient of thin rosters and virtually no front line.   I would have liked to have seen him with a solid supporting cast around him.  The closest we came was his junior year, and those around him (Heron, Clarke, Simons) performed so inconsistently, he tried to carry a burden that makes almost any player ineffective.

It's a fun discussion, but I'm not very big on characterizing any player as lazy or out of shape, especially because I am both.,    /media/kunena/emoticons/smile.png

Excellent post.  And I wonder how many of the arm chair basketball gurus on this site (myself included) have any first-hand knowledge of Shamorie's work ethic or dietary habits.  As I said in my prior post, the word was  that he worked very hard to change his diet by his junior year.  That may have been pure spin, but other than one or two posters on this site, I think we're all speculating.  For my part, I appreciated all that Shamorie did for the program.  What's ironic is that if he hadn't  come back for his junior year -- as we were all begging him to do  -- his legacy would likely have been better.  Nonetheless, Shamorie had an All Conference final season and was instrumental in piloting a very limited team to the program's third NCAA tournament in 20 years.  Where he fits with the all time greats, I'm not sure.  But he was terrific.  And as much as we all love Posh, let's give him a little time before we annoint him an all time great.

 

[SLYFOXX1968]

It's only fair to mention that Ponds was not helped a lot by Clark or Simon and their shooting and scoring . They both contributed but , the 2 of them combined could be shooting 4-27 in many games . Only a slight exaggeration perhaps ., And , given that what would you expect a player of his skills to do ? He did get some help from Figgy and Herron in his last year but , not enough . I often wished he would have put it up over 20 times a game , like Howard often did at Marquette . Ponds wasn't a ball hogging chucker .    For the naysayers , who would you pick , if not Ponds for best 10-12 players of the last 50-60 years . His career stats prove it . He's not top 5 because we have had a lot of Legends play here . Whom I did name in a earlier post . But , let's give Shamorie his due . 

 

[redmannorth]

Wow! I'm surprised there is so much negative about Shamorie . He doesn't deserve it . He was our Best Player for the 3 years here and for most of it , played with players who weren't at his talent level . Simon was a very good 4 tool player but , a train wreck as a shooter . He was pretty easily defensed by opponents . Great kid , great defender , rebounder , jump out of the building but , missed a awful lot of easy shots . Clark , also great team player but , very streaky shooter . When he was good , he was very ,very good but , had a lot of 2-14 shooting days too . And , fouled out a lot . Thus , the Scoring load and playmaking role fell to Ponds , who every one defended aggtesively . Ponds was certainly a All BE player and almost won ROY in hhs first season and was BE Pre Season POY his last year .  Not to include him among the top players here , is just not fair .  I'm only speculating but , if Ponds options were to play Overseas in a Pandemic year , it might be more a risk than worth it . Just saying ..  I think Mullin , Richmond , St Jean coached Ponds to the fullest extent . Picking on his weight and perceived lack of work ethic demean a player who left it all in the Court every game .  He earned his spot on our Wall of Honor and certainly among the top 5 players of the last 15 -20 years . Maybe even the best Player of the last  20 years . 

You are surprised but I am not. Just look at the history of our fan base over the last 40 years we love players who work their buts off to improve their game.  Be it Chris Mullin, Marc Jackson , Jayson Williams, Ron Artest, Matt Brust , Tyrone Grant, D Harrison , Posh Alexander, Dylan Wusu and I could go on and on. That is what this fan base appreciates first and foremost. 
Shamorie just does not fit into that group. He was not in great shape, did not work overly hard in the off season and was preoccupied with his Instagram posts. He lacked the humility of the players I named and the many others who I failed to list as my point had been made. 
As for teammates who were not at his talent level it has been a long time since we had a team of top 50 players. However, he was surrounded by some very good talent. Tariq has had a sniff or two in the league, Simon was a top 30 player coming out of high school, Clark top 50, Bashir a jc aa , Lovett top 100, so to say he did not have good talent around him is just false. His teams certainly lacked a good bench. 
Was he a volume scorer on a mediocre team he certainly was. Was he one of our best players over the last 20 years he certainly was, but to characterize him with Malik, Walter, Ron A, Sonny Dove, Chris, Tony J, just to name a few, does not hold water with me. 

What he accomplished, I would agree with you.   I just never heard  him being criticized by those close to the program in the manner that he has been criticized here.   Was he an elite player compared to our all time greats.  I can't comment on guys I never saw.   Alan Seiden was a smart ass who basically annoyed himself out of the league for the St. Louis Hawks,  You'd have to be almost 80 to remember Tony Jackson.   I missed Sonny Dove amd never saw Mel Davis as a collegiate player.    

But to be completely fair, Ponds came here with zero supporting cast with a roster that has zero sustainability.   What pisses me about the NR compliments about handing Lavin an NCAA team, was that he couldn't win with a better roster (Anthony Mason Jr) the year before, and it was a messed up roster of all seniors.   By Jordan and Obekpa leaving Mullin started from ground zero.   Shamorie came in year two and he and Lovett were the catalysts towards program resurgence, which is no easy task as we have seen this year.   Had Lovett not left, it's possible, Ponds may have seen the NCAA tournament in 3 years.   He was definitely the recipient of thin rosters and virtually no front line.   I would have liked to have seen him with a solid supporting cast around him.  The closest we came was his junior year, and those around him (Heron, Clarke, Simons) performed so inconsistently, he tried to carry a burden that makes almost any player ineffective.

It's a fun discussion, but I'm not very big on characterizing any player as lazy or out of shape, especially because I am both.,    /media/kunena/emoticons/smile.png

Excellent post.  And I wonder how many of the arm chair basketball gurus on this site (myself included) have any first-hand knowledge of Shamorie's work ethic or dietary habits.  As I said in my prior post, the word was  that he worked very hard to change his diet by his junior year.  That may have been pure spin, but other than one or two posters on this site, I think we're all speculating.  For my part, I appreciated all that Shamorie did for the program.  What's ironic is that if he hadn't  come back for his junior year -- as we were all begging him to do  -- his legacy would likely have been better.  Nonetheless, Shamorie had an All Conference final season and was instrumental in piloting a very limited team to the program's third NCAA tournament in 20 years.  Where he fits with the all time greats, I'm not sure.  But he was terrific.  And as much as we all love Posh, let's give him a little time before we annoint him an all time great.

I have no clue as to why you added Posh to the Shamorie thread , this one really has me scratching my head ? Furthermore, I know I am optically challenged but I have not read a post where anyone has said that Posh should be listed with the all time SJU greats. What I have read is a consensus that he should be BE ROy, that many believe he should be BE Defensuve player of the year and that I have gone on record in saying that he is the most important freshman we have had in the 39 years I have followed the team. But amongst our all time greats no one has said that. 

 

[beast of the east]

For the record Mullin came to st John's on a squad that had just lost Wayne mckoy, frank gilroy and ron plair, all key players on an 8-6 conf team.   Goodwin had averaged about 6 pts and William's 4 on that team.  Mullin averaged 16.6 and led the team to the NCAA tourney with a 9-5 record.  Syracuse and uconn missed the dance and were 7-7.  Without mullin we likely lose close games to Syracuse and uconn, finish 7-7 or worse and dont make the NCAA tourney.

Comparing Posh' tremendous contribution to a dual college HOF and nba HOF player is like comparing a fantastic key lime pie to a superb French dessert at a Michelin 2 star restaurant. 

Let's see how Posh finishes his freshman year before anointing him.  Making the dance would validate that he and the team finished strong.  I hope it and he does.  Personally I like him and champ as much as anyone since artest 

 

[monte]

Few on this board would consider D'Lo one of the all time greats. No doubt a very good player, and a fine young man and representative of the school to this day. Statistically and otherwise(all big east freshman, 2 time all big east 1st team), he's very comparable to Ponds. Same could be said of Zendon and others; very good all-big east level ball players who put up nice stats. That's no knock on Ponds, D'Lo, Z or anyone else. Lots of very good ball players, few truly great ones. 

 

[ras]

Mullin , Berry , Tony Jackson, Mark Jackson and Malik Sealy , Sonny Dove , Reggie Carter were All American Players of the last 50 -60 years . Mark might have been Honorable Mention . These are top of the tier Players . Right behind would be George Johnson , Mel Davis , Felipe Lopez . Ponds is in that tier . I have not included Players that were in that category but , didn't play 4 years . Artest , Barkley, Hatten . I'm
sure I might have forgotten a few of the old timers. But , this is a pretty good Group . So , yes Shamorie is breathing in the rarefied Air of St John's greats . Berry only played 2 years here but   , no one would doubt his stature among Redmen Legends . 
---
I believe Mark Jackson was 2nd team AA.
 

 

[beast of the east]

I believe Harrison is now eligible for the sju HOF.    I hope he gets in.

 

[boo haarvey]

To respond to North, I brought up Posh to illustrate the whimsical nature of fans, myself included.  After his sophomore year and midway through his junior year, Ponds could do no wrong in many fans' eyes.  It's much the same with Posh today.  Wait until we hit a rough patch.  I promise you that many of the same posters on this thread were lauding Ponds' improved body and diet during the start of his last season.

 

[boo haarvey]

Few on this board would consider D'Lo one of the all time greats. No doubt a very good player, and a fine young man and representative of the school to this day. Statistically and otherwise(all big east freshman, 2 time all big east 1st team), he's very comparable to Ponds. Same could be said of Zendon and others; very good all-big east level ball players who put up nice stats. That's no knock on Ponds, D'Lo, Z or anyone else. Lots of very good ball players, few truly great ones. 

I don't think D'Lo ever averaged more than 16 points a game.  Nor do I think he had anywhere near the assists and steals that Ponds had.  D'Lo was terrific, but not the star that Ponds was. Zedon Hamilton drove me crazy.  He was a black hole on lousy teams his first three years.  The team enjoyed a bit of a resurgence his senior year (Lopez and Artest), but Z's stats notably declined -- which was a good thing.  Conversely, Ponds carried us for three years.
 

 

[Jack Williams]

Don't know if I'd say Harrison is an "all time great" talent. 

but he is an all time great SJU player. Without a doubt. We went through some lows, and he worked on himself and he came back and was a phenomenal leader and personality. 

#3 in scoring in sju history. 

I think a lot of times we think a player has to have postseason success to be considered one of the greats for our school. But I disagree for the simple fact that I've never seen any St. John's player have a lot of postseason success, but DLos tenure still feels extremely significant and awesome to look back on. 

when they showed the clip the other night of the "last time we had beat Xavier" they showed DLo's patented clutch 3 and then scream of excitement. I got pretty emotional seeing it. Brought back great memories. 

im younger so that probably changes what I view as "great" but I'd totally give Harrison the all time great status at St. John's  

 

[monte]

Few on this board would consider D'Lo one of the all time greats. No doubt a very good player, and a fine young man and representative of the school to this day. Statistically and otherwise(all big east freshman, 2 time all big east 1st team), he's very comparable to Ponds. Same could be said of Zendon and others; very good all-big east level ball players who put up nice stats. That's no knock on Ponds, D'Lo, Z or anyone else. Lots of very good ball players, few truly great ones. 

I don't think D'Lo ever averaged more than 16 points a game.  Nor do I think he had anywhere near the assists and steals that Ponds had.  D'Lo was terrific, but not the star that Ponds was. Zedon Hamilton drove me crazy.  He was a black hole on lousy teams his first three years.  The team enjoyed a bit of a resurgence his senior year (Lopez and Artest), but Z's stats notably declined -- which was a good thing.  Conversely, Ponds carried us for three years.



 

[attachment=1942]A241D43F-B27B-42A7-8E52-8843650B3899.jpeg[/attachment]

Yeah, Zendon completely sucked. D'Lo averaged between 17-18PPG all 4 years. Remarkably consistent. He averaged 20 points per 40 minutes. Ponds averaged 22. Their other stats are similar. D'Lo better at some, Ponds better at others. D'Lo a more intense defender, although Ponds was excellent when he felt like it. I call them similar caliber players, maybe slight edge to Ponds. 

 

[NCJohnnie]

Boo Harvey wrote: I don't think D'Lo ever averaged more than 16 points a game.  Nor do I think he had anywhere near the assists and steals that Ponds had.  D'Lo was terrific, but not the star that Ponds was. Zedon Hamilton drove me crazy.  He was a black hole on lousy teams his first three years.  The team enjoyed a bit of a resurgence his senior year (Lopez and Artest), but Z's stats notably declined -- which was a good thing.  Conversely, Ponds carried us for three years.

DLO was incredibly consistent, averaged 17 plus points all 4 years. What he shared with Shamorie was not playing for very good teams and Shamorie played for an underachieving team in his senior year which we (and pundits) all thought would be at least 3rd or 4th in BE. Individual stats are great, but basketball is a team game and vitrually all the guys I'd consider all time SJU greats played on very successful teams. 

That last team was very talented with Ponds, Figgy, Heron, Simon (BE defensive player of the year w/o whom we don't beat Marquette twice or the Hall) & Clark. Admittedly no depth and little coaching but let's not make it seem like Shamorie was playing with a bunch of second rate players. That is revisionist history    

 

[Section3]

Ponds was a stud and a great Johnnie. For me,what hurt him was his preoccupation with getting to the NBA and being the next Curry. During his last year, he was too fixated on the attributes that scouts wanted to see - and too many times forced the issue (e.g. giving up a clear layup to pass to someone 22 feet away from the basket).

At times he gave the impression that he was "over" the college experience and that it was a foregone conclusion that he was destined for the pros. Too much showboating - even on the layup line.

With all that said, one of my favorites. Mullin should have reined him in.

 

[monte]

Speaking of very good Johnnies, in the last 20 years, I could only find one of our players who made the year-end Wooden Award finalist list, Name him. 

 

[SJU61982]

Speaking of very good Johnnies, in the last 20 years, I could only find one of our players who made the year-end Wooden Award finalist list, Name him. 

Hatten?

 

[monte]

Speaking of very good Johnnies, in the last 20 years, I could only find one of our players who made the year-end Wooden Award finalist list, Name him. 

Hatten?

Nope 
 

 

[Jack Williams]

Speaking of very good Johnnies, in the last 20 years, I could only find one of our players who made the year-end Wooden Award finalist list, Name him. 

Interesting question. I know Harrison was on the Wooden Award watchlist for awhile his senior year but he had some injury issues down the stretch and he kind of faded a little bit. So don't think he made it to the final stage.

maybe Dwight Hardy? He was excellent all season that one year.