I agree completely except that it may have been a 2/1 ratio for the one's that left NYC which we did not get.
Pitino: St. John's Made Mistakes After Louie
- Thread starter NYCRedmen
- Start date
I agree completely except that it may have been a 2/1 ratio for the one's that left NYC which we did not get.
One of the biggest misses was the NYC class of 1990 - probably the greatest amount of talent ever produced by the city in one year.
Here is the Hoop Scoop national rankings:
4. Jamal Mashburn - Cardinal Hayes: Kentucky
12. Brian Reese - Tolentine - UNC
13. Adrian Autry - Tolentine - Syracuse
15. Derrick Phelps - CTK - UNC
22. Rob Phelps - Nazareth - Providence
23. Khalid Reeves - CTK - Arizona
24. Lee Green! - St. John's
45. Shawnelle Scott - All Hallows - St. John's
95. Sergio Luyk - St. John's
Shawnelle Scott was one of the better big men we've had, but never rose to all conference status. The fact that Lee Green was 24th is a bit mind blowing since he had arguably the worst fundamentals I ever saw out of a STJ player (no right hand and a horrible shot).
-Mashburn became a first team AA. (lottery pick)
-Reese and Phelps were starters on a championship UNC team.
-Autry was all conference, 1,500 pt scorer
-Rob Phelps was a solid role player but never lived up to the hype.
-Reeves became a 2nd team AA at Arizona putting up 24 ppg as a senior (lottery pick)
Thought you where saying that we didn't get top 5 kids. Regardless, prior to Norm, we got plenty of top NYC area kids( I didn't even mention Jersey kids Felton, McLoed, James Scott, etc.) to come here. Between 1988 and 2000, we got Sealy, Lopez, Artest. Glover and Cook. All arguably the best NYC player of their class. Not to shabby.
JackofVirginia
Active member
I guess your memory has faded badly. LOL.
beast of the east
Active member
I'm not sure what your point is here. Carnesecca would playfully complain for years that his recruiting budget consisted of a roll of subway tokens. After the final four year (1985) he was given a budget to recruit nationlly, which yielded the heralded bust from Colorado, Chucky Sproling. Before that, the strategy was always that NYC had more than enough players to field a top 20 team, even while NYC was raided by the ACC, Northeastern schools, and eventually everyone else. For most of Carnesecca's career, getting the rest of the best most of the time, and a true super blue chipper every few years, it was good enough to consistently be ranked 15-20.
As we all know by now Coach C. had HOF success, and for it, took a below market salary (max 125K on a verbal agreement never to take more than Cahill in salary). My recollection is that Mahoney was only hired when the committee headed by Frank Layden yielded zero big names that the school thought would line up (also at below market salaries) for what they thought was a top 5 job. Mahoney was subsequently paid a below market $400K, Fraschilla (who rebounded the program but was still underpaid - which led to his firing for testing the market while under contract). Jarvis (after moderate success at GW) was thought to be the upstanding man that the school felt Frachilla wasn't, and was paid somewhere in the 800K range, more in line with a competitive salary. When that turned out horribly in all ways, the school retrenched, and went back to penny pinching ways and hired a neophyte career assistant, whose early head coaching failures were ignored. All in all, the mistakes were always about money, and the adminsitration drove the program into the ground, until rescued by Repole and company (the alumni in the background who ponied up $$ to convince FH that you had to ante up to hire a top guy.
Without reading the article (which I'll do now) Pitino doesn't have any special inside knowledge beyond the realities of what we all lived through. Pitino however, has always had a condescending view of the SJU program. Perhaps he was just another Long Island Catholic HS runt upset at not being recruited by St. Johns (like Donovan).
beast of the east
Active member
Perhaps the main thing about Jarvis is that in those days (when AAU coaches were jsut coming to power in being a huge part of the equation that determined where a kid went), the college coaches who had the most success in NYC made sure they got to know the HS coaches from the best programs as friends.
There are a boatload of current and former NYC HS coaches who are still friends with Carnesecca to this day. Like all successful recruiters, he knew that like any good salesman, that people buy from people they like. Jay Wright is highly regarded in this area (and I'm guessing all areas), and even Calipari is well liked from the days that he scoured the NYC scene for Pitt. Jarvis was considered a dog by NYC coaches, who somehow was under the notion that they should be thankful for the chance to send top recruits here. He had it all backwards, and combined with the greater disdain he had for the temerity of AAU coaches to insert themselves into the process proclaimed that he wasn't going to recruit in NYC anymore. Maybe it was the typical anti-NYC attitude that many across the US have against native New Yorkers. All I know is that there was no love lost for the Atheltic department staff when he was fired. When JArvis junior was finally dumped, the first thing a young staffer did was walk over to his office, get his nameplate, and ceremoniously loudly deposited it into the trash to a round of applause.
Also forgot to mention Eric Barclay, who I believe was the # 1 NYC kid the year he graduated. So over a 12 year period, we got arguably the # 1 NYC ballplayer 6 of those years. Pretty sure that Mo Brown, for all his shortcomings as a college player, was one of the top NYC players in his class as well. Plus guys like Rob Wedann and Zendon Hamilton, not # 1s in their class but both McDonald All Americans. Up until 2001, there was no shortage of top NYC kids coming here.
To get a better sense of STJ's local recruiting, here's a list of McDonald's All Americans from New York state 1977 to 2011
Tobias Harris 2010 Tennessee 6-7 PF Dix Hills NY
Jayvaughn Pinkston 2010 Villanova 6-6 PF Brooklyn NY
Lance Stephenson 2009 Cincinnati 6-5 WF Brooklyn NY
Sylven Landesberg 2008 Virginia 6-7 WF Flushing NY
Kemba Walker 2008 Connecticut 6-1 PG New York NY
Jonny Flynn 2007 Syracuse 6-0 PG Niagara Falls NY
Danny Green 2005 North Carolina 6-5 WF Manhassett NY
Greg Paulus 2005 Duke 6-2 PG Syracuse NY
Sebastian Telfair 2004 Portland Trail Blazers 6-0 PG Brooklyn NY
Jason Fraser 2002 5 Villanova 6-8 PF Amityville NY
Julius Hodge 2001 7 NC State 6-5 WG-WF Bronx NY
Andre Barrett 2000 15 Seton Hall 5-9 PG New York NY
Taliek Brown 2000 10 Connecticut 6-1 PG Astoria NY
Omar Cook 2000 11 St. John's 6-1 PG Middle Village NY
Majestic Mapp 1999 23 Virginia 6-1 PG Bronx NY
Kenny Satterfield 1999 13 Cincinnati 6-2 2G New York NY
Ron Artest 1997 St. John's New York NY
Elton Brand 1997 Duke Peekskill NY
Lamar Odom 1997 Rhode Island Troy NY
Willie Dersch 1996 Virginia Flushing NY
Vassil Evtimov 1996 North Carolina Brookville NY
Stephon Marbury 1995 Georgia Tech Brooklyn NY
God Shammgod 1995 Providence New York NY
Adonal Foyle 1994 Colgate Hamilton NY
Zendon Hamilton 1994 St. John's Floral Park NY
Felipe Lopez 1994 St. John's Manhattan NY
Kareem Reid 1994 Arkansas Bronx NY
John Wallace 1992 Syracuse Rochester NY
Adrian Autry 1990 Syracuse Bronx NY
Derrick Phelps 1990 North Carolina Middle Village NY
Brian Reese 1990 North Carolina Bronx NY
Khalid Reeves 1990 Arizona Middle Village NY
Kenny Anderson 1989 Georgia Tech Jamaica NY
Darryl Barnes 1989 Georgia Tech Brooklyn NY
Jamal Faulkner 1989 Alabama Middle Village NY
Conrad McRae 1989 Syracuse Brooklyn NY
Christian Laettner 1988 Duke Buffalo NY
Malik Sealy 1988 St. John's Bronx NY
Robert Werdann 1988 St. John's Jamaica NY
Greg Koubek 1987 Duke Clifton Park NY
King Rice 1987 North Carolina Binghamton NY
Keith Robinson 1986 Notre Dame Buffalo NY
Derrick Chievous 1984 Missouri Flushing NY
Edward Davender 1984 Kentucky Brooklyn NY
Shelton Jones 1984 St. John's Amityville NY
Curtis Aiken 1983 Pittsburgh Buffalo NY
Tom Sheehey 1983 Virginia Rochester NY
Kenny Smith 1983 North Carolina Jamaica NY
Dwayne Washington 1983 Syracuse Brooklyn NY
Tim Kempton 1982 Notre Dame Oyster Bay NY
Ernie Myers 1982 NC State Bronx NY
Chris Mullin 1981 St. John's Brooklyn NY
Ed Pinckney 1981 Villanova Bronx NY
Bill Wennington 1981 St. John's Brookville NY
Bret Bearup 1980 Kentucky Greenlawn NY
Matt Doherty 1980 North Carolina Hicksville NY
Vern Fleming 1980 Georgia Astoria NY
Sam Perkins 1980 North Carolina Latham NY
Gary Springer 1980 Iona New York NY
Tony Bruin 1979 Syracuse Astoria NY
Sidney Green 1979 UNLV Brooklyn NY
Scooter McCray 1978 Louisville Mt. Vernon NY
Albert King 1977 Maryland Brooklyn NY
Wayne McKoy 1977 St. John's Glen Head NY
Jeff Ruland 1977 Iona Lake Ronkonkoma NY
STJ also had Michael Porter from Virginia and Elijiah Ingram from NJ.
Tobias Harris 2010 Tennessee 6-7 PF Dix Hills NY
Jayvaughn Pinkston 2010 Villanova 6-6 PF Brooklyn NY
Lance Stephenson 2009 Cincinnati 6-5 WF Brooklyn NY
Sylven Landesberg 2008 Virginia 6-7 WF Flushing NY
Kemba Walker 2008 Connecticut 6-1 PG New York NY
Jonny Flynn 2007 Syracuse 6-0 PG Niagara Falls NY
Danny Green 2005 North Carolina 6-5 WF Manhassett NY
Greg Paulus 2005 Duke 6-2 PG Syracuse NY
Sebastian Telfair 2004 Portland Trail Blazers 6-0 PG Brooklyn NY
Jason Fraser 2002 5 Villanova 6-8 PF Amityville NY
Julius Hodge 2001 7 NC State 6-5 WG-WF Bronx NY
Andre Barrett 2000 15 Seton Hall 5-9 PG New York NY
Taliek Brown 2000 10 Connecticut 6-1 PG Astoria NY
Omar Cook 2000 11 St. John's 6-1 PG Middle Village NY
Majestic Mapp 1999 23 Virginia 6-1 PG Bronx NY
Kenny Satterfield 1999 13 Cincinnati 6-2 2G New York NY
Ron Artest 1997 St. John's New York NY
Elton Brand 1997 Duke Peekskill NY
Lamar Odom 1997 Rhode Island Troy NY
Willie Dersch 1996 Virginia Flushing NY
Vassil Evtimov 1996 North Carolina Brookville NY
Stephon Marbury 1995 Georgia Tech Brooklyn NY
God Shammgod 1995 Providence New York NY
Adonal Foyle 1994 Colgate Hamilton NY
Zendon Hamilton 1994 St. John's Floral Park NY
Felipe Lopez 1994 St. John's Manhattan NY
Kareem Reid 1994 Arkansas Bronx NY
John Wallace 1992 Syracuse Rochester NY
Adrian Autry 1990 Syracuse Bronx NY
Derrick Phelps 1990 North Carolina Middle Village NY
Brian Reese 1990 North Carolina Bronx NY
Khalid Reeves 1990 Arizona Middle Village NY
Kenny Anderson 1989 Georgia Tech Jamaica NY
Darryl Barnes 1989 Georgia Tech Brooklyn NY
Jamal Faulkner 1989 Alabama Middle Village NY
Conrad McRae 1989 Syracuse Brooklyn NY
Christian Laettner 1988 Duke Buffalo NY
Malik Sealy 1988 St. John's Bronx NY
Robert Werdann 1988 St. John's Jamaica NY
Greg Koubek 1987 Duke Clifton Park NY
King Rice 1987 North Carolina Binghamton NY
Keith Robinson 1986 Notre Dame Buffalo NY
Derrick Chievous 1984 Missouri Flushing NY
Edward Davender 1984 Kentucky Brooklyn NY
Shelton Jones 1984 St. John's Amityville NY
Curtis Aiken 1983 Pittsburgh Buffalo NY
Tom Sheehey 1983 Virginia Rochester NY
Kenny Smith 1983 North Carolina Jamaica NY
Dwayne Washington 1983 Syracuse Brooklyn NY
Tim Kempton 1982 Notre Dame Oyster Bay NY
Ernie Myers 1982 NC State Bronx NY
Chris Mullin 1981 St. John's Brooklyn NY
Ed Pinckney 1981 Villanova Bronx NY
Bill Wennington 1981 St. John's Brookville NY
Bret Bearup 1980 Kentucky Greenlawn NY
Matt Doherty 1980 North Carolina Hicksville NY
Vern Fleming 1980 Georgia Astoria NY
Sam Perkins 1980 North Carolina Latham NY
Gary Springer 1980 Iona New York NY
Tony Bruin 1979 Syracuse Astoria NY
Sidney Green 1979 UNLV Brooklyn NY
Scooter McCray 1978 Louisville Mt. Vernon NY
Albert King 1977 Maryland Brooklyn NY
Wayne McKoy 1977 St. John's Glen Head NY
Jeff Ruland 1977 Iona Lake Ronkonkoma NY
STJ also had Michael Porter from Virginia and Elijiah Ingram from NJ.
Jayson was a sleeper. The highest rated player STJ signed in that class was Moses Scurry who failed to qualify, went Juco, signed with Tark and won a championship at UNLV (and a lot of other noteriety).
Cain was arguably the best player in the PSAL in '89, ranked 69 nationally by Hoop Scoop but was light years away from being the best senior in the city. That went to Kenny Anderson. Conrad McRae, Jamal Faulkner, Daryl Barnes were also part of that NYC class.
Fair enough and thanks for the additional info on these two. I was in school during those years, but can't say I paid much attention to HS player rankings...more so just the media hype when we landed a good player. Now, I think many of us agree that landing a top NYC kid is great (Harkless, and possibly Lawrence and McCullough) and adds to the local buzz for the program, but getting a top player from elsewhere is just fine too.
When Jayson committed I called Ron Rutledge and said who is this kid and can't you get a top 100 kid in this critical class?
He immediately replied you are going to love this kid and there are not 100 better kids in the country than Jayson.
He was correct.
Yeah. I just correctly spelled his name.
If you root for a team, then one can, at least, get the spelling correct of past and present players. That is very similiar to people consistently incorrectly misspelling the name of an all-time great at St. John's. I've seen "Mullens" and "Mullins." The correct spelling is "Mullin."