[quote="Adam" post=367540][quote="QueensBall" post=367538][quote="Adam" post=367530][quote="FrankInGeneral" post=367529][quote="Adam" post=367527][quote="TRabinowitz" post=367525][quote="Adam" post=367521]I'm too young to remember the Redmen name, but Phavre needs to chill out. He's been posting about this non-stop on Twitter and flooding the hashtag. If a few people want to wear Redmen gear (even custom made) then let them. The only person making a big deal about it is Phavre.
Also, it's just a small percent of Native Americans getting offended by this kind of stuff. Most actually like names like the Redskins. I'd say let the majority of Native Americans decide rather than a vocal minority
This is coming from someone who likes his podcast, but disagree with him here. Don't like seeing him divide the fan base between young and old.[/quote]
That poll on the Redskins has been widely cited as having numerous surveying issues, including disproportionate age numbers and not taking a proper sample from native reservations and the Post has been cited as trying to save the name.
Majority of Native American advocacy groups and their membership condemn stereotypical mascots and logos.[/quote]
Read this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Redskins_name_opinion_polls[/quote]
I don't think that proves what you think it proves...
Re the 2004 poll of Native Americans:
"The methods used in this survey and the conclusions that can be drawn from it have been criticized by social scientists,[14] Native American scholars[15] and legal experts[16] for years. In August, 2015, a memo written by senior researchers at the organization responsible for collecting the data for the survey made clear that it should not be taken as an accurate reflection of Native American attitudes at the time.[17]"
Re: the 2016 WaPo Poll:
"Adrienne Keene, Ed.D responded that the poll uses faulty data and methods, such as the continuing problem of self-identification, and the reporting of the results misses the point regarding objections to the name established by social science research and the authentic voices of Native Americans as being about real harms, not individual feelings."
"The Native American Journalists Association (NAJA) issued a statement calling the publication of the poll, and the reporting of its significance, as not only inaccurate and misleading but unethical. "The reporters and editors behind this story must have known that it would be used as justification for the continued use of these harmful, racist mascots. They were either willfully malicious or dangerously naïve in the process and reporting used in this story, and neither is acceptable from any journalistic institution."[26]"
But go off I guess...[/quote]
I read the full section and the data from all the polls seems pretty clear to me. It's advocacy groups getting offended (which makes sense), but most Native Americans as well as most Native Americans fans of the team support the name.
I'll go with the majority of Native Americans here. There have been a lot of polls on this.
Also, we're not even debating whether the school should change the name. That happened decades ago. We're debating whether fans should be allowed to wear Redmen gear. Seems kind of silly and overly PC to me. It's just one white dude getting offended.[/quote]
I'm hesitant to continue posting about this since I come here to talk hoops but I have some connection to this specific topic so it feels disingenuous not to reply...
Adam, I just want to add (respectfully, I genuinely enjoy your contributions to this board and have no reason to believe you have an intolerant bone in your body) that I have a Native-American sister-in-law and this subject has come up at functions a few times over the years. From my personal experience lines like, "Most of them don't care." or "They actually like the name Redskins" are things white people say to justify their position (Not trying to be holier than thou. This was wording directed at me after I once brought up a piece the Daily Show did a few years back that included Native Americans who were in favor of the name Redskins.) It's been made clear to me that her family and community overwhelmingly find these names and mascots offensive. The Redskins (which they view as an outright racial slur) and The Cleveland Indians red-faced mascot Chief Wahoo seem to be the most egregious. She's against all of them but her brothers and friends were much more open to names like the Atlanta Braves or Florida Seminoles which in their view appear to be more of a celebration of tribal warrior culture. They believe that very, very few Native Americans are cool with the name Redskins and you only see them when the media is doing a story on the name and is looking for contrarians to voice both sides of the issue.
I'm not knowledgable enough to question any of the studies you cited. Also my sister is Onondaga Iroquois from upstate NY which is one of many tribes and cultures so it's possible different tribes have cultivated opposing views on the subject. I've been told by her family that that's not the case but have no evidence (nor have I sought any evidence) to doubt them. In fairness she's in her mid-30's and has referenced an older uncle who had no problem with the name Redskins so it may be generational. Also (since we can't see one another) I'll add that I myself am a white guy and I recognize that simply having a relative who is Native American gives me no moral authority on the subject. Just adding my experience to the collective dialogue here.
I'm REALLY looking forward to the Albany game.[/quote]
Queens- I am using phrases like "most Native Americans support the name" because that is what the polls say. Most do, such as the ones cited on Wikipedia. I haven't seen a poll contradictory to that. It's not simply that most Native Americans aren't offended, it's that most actually like the name and want it to remain as it is. They support it. I acknowledge that some, such as someone you know, gets offended by it. That is unfortunate but shouldn't be a reason why a few posters on here can't wear Redmen gear. The name is a part of our history.
I try to be sensitive to this stuff- my wife is Chinese and she gets offended by certain things that as a white male I wouldn't be aware of. For anything related to Chinese people I will side her opinion of course (lol). That said, for stuff like this that doesn't personally affect anyone I know, I will side with what the majority of a minority group wants. Until Native American polls prove otherwise, my view is in favor with keeping the Redskins name as it is (or in this case, keeping the Redmen name alive). I respect your view on it given that someone you know has a strong opinion on it.[/quote]
Thanks for the response and just to be clear, I don't feel like you were being insensitive. Differing to the majority opinion in a situation like this feels rational and even considerate so I would never judge someone for that. Polls like that surprise me but I can't say with 100% certainty that the Native American community I interact with with isn't in the minority. Based on my life experience I am dubious about those results but I have no reason for that other than being colored by my own life experience.
I won't wear or support the Redmen logo/name because I value my relationships more than I value getting to wear a specific shirt. Also based on those interactions I do feel in my gut that something is off about it. That being said I would never impose my morals on anyone else and I don't assume someone is a racist because they disagree with me on this issue. MjMaherJr gave an explanation earlier in this thread about why he wears his Redmen hat (without logo) that I appreciated. I do respectfully feel different and wouldn't wear it myself but I understand that there's no malice intended and he wears it based off a warm personal association he has with it. I can certainly imagine a Native American hearing that explanation and telling him to wear it until it falls apart but people are different and no race is monolith.
I do have major problems with the Redskin name and would most likely not support St John's if they changed the name and logo back but that has more to do with institutionalizing these things which to me has larger, more troubling ramifications than any individual fan's decision on what they wear.
Just kidding
