I'm not going to get into a debate, but you can keep pretending it's 1940 if you want. I'm just telling you no one my age goes to church anymore and religion is dying. Trying to make SJ more religious and expecting it to appeal more is like selling model T fords and expecting them to sell like hotcakes in 2012. We should be moving forward in education, not mythology.
Oakdale Campus
- Thread starter jerseyshorejohnny
- Start date
I think there is a lot more common ground between Joe and other posters (like Beast) than you guys may realize.
But first, Joe I think you're making a mistake by using blanket statements to describe your generation and younger.
Not everyone is less religious than their parents.
But I do agree with your point that many segments of the younger generations don't feel as connected to religious institutions. And in some ways that's a natural reaction. For the baby boomer generation, many of you think about politics the way younger generations view official religion. You guys lived through assassinations, scandals like Watergate, and divisive experiences like Vietnam. Many became cynical about the political process. The church scandal and teaching about contraception, women clergy, and homosexuality has had the same effect on many of your children and how they view official religion. Skeptical, cynical, take your pick.
That's an oversimplification but I think it's true for a lot of younger Catholics.
The thing is though; the younger generation isn't any less interested in morality, they're just skeptical of the official church. Volunteerism, local charity, and missions abroad are as popular as ever. And I agree with Beast and others that it would definitely benefit SJU to stress it's Vincentian mission more. HS kids may be hesitant to id themselves as Catholic, or want to be taken on a tour of the chapel (although some definitely do look for that), but marketing the initiatives SJU does for social justice, helping the hungry and the homeless, and fighting for human rights abroad - those are very attractive attributes to the younger generation.
Again I risk oversimplying and stereotyping, but I think there's a huge difference between identifying as religious and being interested in the type of values the church espouses. And actually I think a Vincentian school fills that void better than many other Catholic institutions. The Vincentians have never been worried about orthodoxy as much as others. They've always been more interested in achieving results in the urban areas they're located in.
But first, Joe I think you're making a mistake by using blanket statements to describe your generation and younger.
Not everyone is less religious than their parents.
But I do agree with your point that many segments of the younger generations don't feel as connected to religious institutions. And in some ways that's a natural reaction. For the baby boomer generation, many of you think about politics the way younger generations view official religion. You guys lived through assassinations, scandals like Watergate, and divisive experiences like Vietnam. Many became cynical about the political process. The church scandal and teaching about contraception, women clergy, and homosexuality has had the same effect on many of your children and how they view official religion. Skeptical, cynical, take your pick.
That's an oversimplification but I think it's true for a lot of younger Catholics.
The thing is though; the younger generation isn't any less interested in morality, they're just skeptical of the official church. Volunteerism, local charity, and missions abroad are as popular as ever. And I agree with Beast and others that it would definitely benefit SJU to stress it's Vincentian mission more. HS kids may be hesitant to id themselves as Catholic, or want to be taken on a tour of the chapel (although some definitely do look for that), but marketing the initiatives SJU does for social justice, helping the hungry and the homeless, and fighting for human rights abroad - those are very attractive attributes to the younger generation.
Again I risk oversimplying and stereotyping, but I think there's a huge difference between identifying as religious and being interested in the type of values the church espouses. And actually I think a Vincentian school fills that void better than many other Catholic institutions. The Vincentians have never been worried about orthodoxy as much as others. They've always been more interested in achieving results in the urban areas they're located in.
I realize there are still some devouts out there, but the numbers are more stark than people realize.
" In terms of Christianity overall, 40 percent of all millennials say religion is not relevant to their lives—its practices, they say, are anti-gay (64 percent), judgmental (62 percent) and hypocritical (58 percent)."
-http://blogs.phillymag.com/the_philly_post/2012/06/15/religion-millennials-teletubbies/
55% of millenials are totally unaffiliated with any sort of religion. That doesn't include those who are scared to admit it or those who list themselves as religious but don't practice it at all. The true number is probably closer to 65%. That's the majority.
Also, I can't stress this point enough: there is nothing a religious person can do morally that a secular person cannot. Doing all those food drives and all that stuff has nothing to do with being religious. Religious people seem to think they have a monopoly on "doing good". You can't list 1 thing a religious person can do morally that a secular person cannot. Religion is obsolete and corrupt. Let's spend money on more programs geared toward science like engineering and energy, not more stuff from the Bronze Age.
" In terms of Christianity overall, 40 percent of all millennials say religion is not relevant to their lives—its practices, they say, are anti-gay (64 percent), judgmental (62 percent) and hypocritical (58 percent)."
-http://blogs.phillymag.com/the_philly_post/2012/06/15/religion-millennials-teletubbies/
55% of millenials are totally unaffiliated with any sort of religion. That doesn't include those who are scared to admit it or those who list themselves as religious but don't practice it at all. The true number is probably closer to 65%. That's the majority.
Also, I can't stress this point enough: there is nothing a religious person can do morally that a secular person cannot. Doing all those food drives and all that stuff has nothing to do with being religious. Religious people seem to think they have a monopoly on "doing good". You can't list 1 thing a religious person can do morally that a secular person cannot. Religion is obsolete and corrupt. Let's spend money on more programs geared toward science like engineering and energy, not more stuff from the Bronze Age.
But then why does it matter if "doing good" is wrapped in religion?
I'm 30, and definitely not as orthodox as my parents. For example; I firmly believe women can be ordained. But my fiance and I both volunteer with Catholic Charities in NYC.
To me there is no difference whether I spend my time and money with City Harvest, Meals on Wheels or my local parish.
You're right there is nothing a religious person can do to help others that a secular person can't. But you've reversed the bias Joe. Doing good in the name of religion is just as worthy as doing good secularly.
Getting back to the original discussion; I disagree with you Joe. SJU branding itself as a home for social justice and service to the needy should always be part of it's marketing efforts. Young people today are very open to that message I believe, even if they don't consider themselves religious.
It's not exclusive to religion, but it's still the dominant thought. Many people still believe that morality comes from religion or god. In polls of the most untrusted groups, non-religious people are at the top above Muslims, gays, etc. I'm all for helping the community, just as long as it's not branded with religion. So if that's your goal then we both agree. I can't tell you how many older people find out I'm not religious and ask sternly, "Well where do you get your morals from?". Morality can be explained rather clearly. It's partially innate, and partially cultural. To feel guilt, shame, sadness, empathy, compassion, depression, anxiety, etc. is to be human. Those act as the consequences to deter actions, not a god or the threat of hell (for seculars at least). Also, morals vary drastically according to culture, so there is no such thing as objective morality. In Africa they still bury children alive and sacrifice them to god...in America they would be seen as nuts and probably get life in prison. There are also rituals such as suppressing the growth of women's breasts during puberty by firmly pressing a hot wooden tool on them. Again, the cultural aspect.
All in all though, like I said I'm all for helping out the community and encouraging students to do service. I know it's still strong at SJ because I've already had assignments in line with the Vincentian mission.
All in all though, like I said I'm all for helping out the community and encouraging students to do service. I know it's still strong at SJ because I've already had assignments in line with the Vincentian mission.
Joe3,
The Religion & Politics forum was terminated on this site for a reason.
If you wish to dhare your beliefs as to religion- or lack thereof, then please find another site.
Please keep your comments in this thread related to the Oakdale Campus.
Thanks.
The Religion & Politics forum was terminated on this site for a reason.
If you wish to dhare your beliefs as to religion- or lack thereof, then please find another site.
Please keep your comments in this thread related to the Oakdale Campus.
Thanks.
I dont follow the religion/education threads that much here but at the presidents dinner sitting next to jsj there were a lot of numbers that to be honest that surprised me about education at catholic schools in a good way.
Maybe it shouldnt surprise me because a very good friend of mine who is a public high school teacher ( sju grad ) has all her kids in catholic school and she lives in a really good public school district.
It's kind of interesting. I think here overall the younger generations are getting less religious for the most part but I think it's like that across a lot of different segments.
I know for a fact that long island jewish community is having a big problem keeping with membership and are merging temples left and right but the 5 towns are seeing an influx of orthodox and I'd say that 1 segment is thriving.
Surprisingly when I went to Israel a few years ago I was stunned how many people there arent religious at all and when I went to the wailing wall and one night we saw a ceremony of new soldiers kind of being inducted how many of the kids ( now soldiers ) hadnt been there before.
And yet whenever I travel to south america they embrace their religion no matter how tough things are for them ( granted it's getting better ) but as someone on the outside looking in it's real nice to see
Maybe it shouldnt surprise me because a very good friend of mine who is a public high school teacher ( sju grad ) has all her kids in catholic school and she lives in a really good public school district.
It's kind of interesting. I think here overall the younger generations are getting less religious for the most part but I think it's like that across a lot of different segments.
I know for a fact that long island jewish community is having a big problem keeping with membership and are merging temples left and right but the 5 towns are seeing an influx of orthodox and I'd say that 1 segment is thriving.
Surprisingly when I went to Israel a few years ago I was stunned how many people there arent religious at all and when I went to the wailing wall and one night we saw a ceremony of new soldiers kind of being inducted how many of the kids ( now soldiers ) hadnt been there before.
And yet whenever I travel to south america they embrace their religion no matter how tough things are for them ( granted it's getting better ) but as someone on the outside looking in it's real nice to see
beast of the east
Active member
Then choose a school whose mission is totally secular, not St. John's. In the center of center is a chapel, there are crucifixes in classrooms which are all signs of a core belief in God, and faith in a resurrected Christ. Personally, I would have a hard time attending a school that promoted the same core beliefs as you possess, so I do find is continually amusing that you can attend a school run by Catholic clergy and deny that its present day existence has anything to do with faith. You say all of your friends think as you do, but I would doubt that many SJU students attend atheist rallies in DC, and espouse an atheist dogma as you do. I would imagine that all but the most inactive Catholics among the 40% that remain at SJU will marry in Catholic churches, baptize their children, and even participate in parish life as they mature. The goal of the active atheist movement in the US is not to simply support an individuals right NOT to believe, but to suppress and mock the expression of faith in any aspect of public life.
As many here may not be aware, the well funded atheist movement has sued many small US towns and villages to remove WWI and WWII memorials that were in the shape of a cross or other religious icons, statues in public places that have religious overtones, Christmas carols sung in schools. They selectively choose small enough towns that cannot afford to legally defend themselves. They would love to see every religious institution cease to exist, and are waging a very unholy war against religion in general.
There is a reason that religion and politics has been closed on this board. It's a topic that incites much emotion in all that choose to debate it. For that very reason, I've avoided any instance of citing any article of faith that you or others would soundly reject - even as you cannot refrain from declaring other's core religious beliefs myth.
For many intelligent people your age (and much older), the question of God and His role in their lives is one that they will continue to ponder and explore as they continue life's journey. Universities are wonderful places for those with open minds to examine information and theorems, and only upon careful examination, accept or reject them as true or false. The real value of Catholic Universities are that students can be educated in Christianity as a requirement of every curriculum. Whether the grow in faith, or come to reject that faith is a matter of personal judgment. When Catholic universities abdicate the responsbility to be faith based, they have become secular institutions whose religious affiliation is a relic of the past. The point where you and I agree, is that SJU has either arrived at that place or is quickly headed there. The disagreement is whether that is a good or bad thing.
To imply atheism has dogma is to prove you don't understand what atheism is. It's a LACK of a belief. Do people who don't believe in Santa have a dogma? No. Same applies here. As for the mocking part, there was a famous quote by someone prominent...might even be Jefferson, but it went something like this, "Beliefs of such ilk deserve only ridicule". Believing in a talking snake, a virgin birth, a man who lived in a whale, 2 of each animal fitting on 1 ark, someone who walked on water, someone who is 3 people at once (father, son, holy spirit), blames you for the sin he built you with, believing that the world is 6,000 years old, believing prayer works when it's proven false every time, etc. etc. it deserves ridicule in 2012.
As for me not believing and attending a Catholic school, it's the same as you buying a mini van but not living a soccer mom lifestyle, or buying a Prius for good MPG even though you really love fast cars. I see SJ as many people do: a school that offers specific degrees. Not every choice you make can totally match your beliefs. I decide based on convenience and practicality, not to make a point about my beliefs.
With that said, this is probably getting closed lol. If anyone else wants to know about Oakdale let me know.
Negation of the other is not the same as affirmation of your own. Figure out what you believe and learn how to communicate that without resorting to denial of the other. When your own is affirmed and public it makes you respectful of the other because now both are in the public forum and vulnerable to the same treatment.
beast of the east
Active member
Does anyone know how large the Oakdale campus is? I had participated in some retreats there a long time ago where we worked with the high school students there, and remember the campus as park like and really pretty
beast of the east
Active member
The building of 380 townhouses is a large scale project, which could coservatively yield $150 million or so in total sales. Rather than an outright sale to developers, the proposed project under the mixed us application could yield profits to the university of $50-75 million. I would imagine under those circumstnaces that the uiversity would not use the proceeds to renovate the structures in need of repair. My guess is that once completed, they would move to bulldoze the structures in need of repair, and simply bank the profits. I'd have to wonder who their proposed architects and builders are, and what their ties are to the university, if any
beast of the east
Active member
I'm not a moderator, and also not one to refrain from having civil dialogue on any subject with an opposing or contrasting opinion as long as both parties remain civil and respoectful. The problem is this rarely is possible and incendiary comments are sooned hurled back and forth. While you are correct that we all are enlightened by civil dialogue of contrasting viewpoints, on the subject of politics or religion, it is rarely possible. I respect teh rights of individuals not to be believe, but do think it's intolerant and counterproductive for that person to offer his opinion on another person's faith when he is not of that religion.
beast of the east
Active member
It appears that the residential development will be restircted to one corner of the campus, while the rest will remain in use as university. This will lkely allow a favorable property tax situation to be retained.
This is not the first time the university has been embroiled in a situation where neighgbors have been outraged. The university purchased severl homes in a residential area near Hillside, tore them down, and with necessary approvals constructed dorms right next door to private homes, to the ire of the community.
Which never made much sense to me. If you want to live in the NYC suburbs you have to understand that there will be high population density. If you want to live away from everything move to rural PA or something. I can't stand when people want to live in the biggest metro area in the US then expect tranquility 24/7.
beast of the east
Active member
If you live on a street with just residential single family homes, the very last think you'd want or expect is a dormitory on your block, which destroys your property values, and instead of a quiet residential street, you have a few hundred college students coming and going at all hours of the night. Incredibly offesnive of the university.
Oakdale is pretty spread out as suburbs go. Now out of nowehre the unversity promises to pack in 360 homes in a very small area, again in an area of 1 family homes, but this time purely with a profit incentive.