Oakdale Campus

 St. John's on the way to another mistake. In the long run should be seen as the home of the university.
 
 I attend the Oakdale campus, and it's a very eerie thing. First of all you have someone's massive estate there. Then you have Dowling students bused over to use our facilities. You also have people attending meetings at the mansion from time to time. Technically, it belongs to SJ but it doesn't feel like it. When I have some classes at the Queens campus it's much more of a campus atmosphere obviously. It's always funny talking to Queens students and when I tell them I usually go to the Oakdale campus they had no idea there was one about 45 min East down the LIE. There have been lots of rumors in Oakdale about the school not being able to keep the property there as well as dwindling applicants for that specific campus. I have had professors beg me to visit my undergrad college as well as others in the area to help promote SJ specifically in the Oakdale campus. It's pretty sad. I literally have classes with about 5-7 people in them...that's how small it is. IMO the campus will be shut down in the near future because they can't be making enough off of only a few students to keep it running. It's a really interesting and weird campus.
 
 I attend the Oakdale campus, and it's a very eerie thing. First of all you have someone's massive estate there. Then you have Dowling students bused over to use our facilities. You also have people attending meetings at the mansion from time to time. Technically, it belongs to SJ but it doesn't feel like it. When I have some classes at the Queens campus it's much more of a campus atmosphere obviously. It's always funny talking to Queens students and when I tell them I usually go to the Oakdale campus they had no idea there was one about 45 min East down the LIE. There have been lots of rumors in Oakdale about the school not being able to keep the property there as well as dwindling applicants for that specific campus. I have had professors beg me to visit my undergrad college as well as others in the area to help promote SJ specifically in the Oakdale campus. It's pretty sad. I literally have classes with about 5-7 people in them...that's how small it is. IMO the campus will be shut down in the near future because they can't be making enough off of only a few students to keep it running. It's a really interesting and weird campus.
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Joe:

I thought that the Oakdale campus was being primarily used as for graduate programs (especially the School of Education). Is that no longer the case?
 
 St. John's on the way to another mistake. In the long run should be seen as the home of the university.
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I agree 100% with your assessment. St. John's traditionally attracted the largest number of students from 2 places - Queens and Nassau County, both places with large number of Catholic students. They totally missed the fact that Queens demographics were rapidly changing, and trends in Nassau County were for Catholic students to choose away schools and local universities that were more suburban.

Single-handedly, this failure of planning led to the explosive growth of Hofstra, the substenance of Adelphi, and the emergence of Molloy and even St. Joseph's as viable alternatives to St. John's. Instead, CEO Mr. Harrington is left with a student population that is 60% non-Catholic, and a school that is so non-Catholic that most alumni who haven't seen the campus in 20 years would not recognize its students.

Had the school had just a little better market adeptness, Molloy would still be a nursing school, Adelphi would have gone bust during its biggest problems, and Hofstra would not have exploded. As it is Dowling is about to go under due to poor management. Perhaps its an opportunity to build up a second campus where St. John's can re-establish itself as a Catholic University.
 
That is the case. It's only graduate students. It basically offers Education and School Psychology programs. Also "Library Sciences" is offered I think even though it sounds old and obsolete. Even so, the enrollment is so small you forget you are even at a school. Mark my words...within 10 years it will be gone.
 
 St. John's on the way to another mistake. In the long run should be seen as the home of the university.
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I agree 100% with your assessment. St. John's traditionally attracted the largest number of students from 2 places - Queens and Nassau County, both places with large number of Catholic students. They totally missed the fact that Queens demographics were rapidly changing, and trends in Nassau County were for Catholic students to choose away schools and local universities that were more suburban.

Single-handedly, this failure of planning led to the explosive growth of Hofstra, the substenance of Adelphi, and the emergence of Molloy and even St. Joseph's as viable alternatives to St. John's. Instead, CEO Mr. Harrington is left with a student population that is 60% non-Catholic, and a school that is so non-Catholic that most alumni who haven't seen the campus in 20 years would not recognize its students.

Had the school had just a little better market adeptness, Molloy would still be a nursing school, Adelphi would have gone bust during its biggest problems, and Hofstra would not have exploded. As it is Dowling is about to go under due to poor management. Perhaps its an opportunity to build up a second campus where St. John's can re-establish itself as a Catholic University.
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I think you are putting too much emphasis on the religiosity of SJ students. IMO, SJ was originally intended for a specific demographic. As the country gets more secular, it doesn't matter...young people today are overwhelmingly non-religious as compared with previous generations. SJ is seen as "college", not a giant church to most of the students I would presume. I think a good analogy is Texas A&M. The A&M used to stand for Agricultural and Mechanical. The university kept the A&M only for traditional purposes. It no longer shoots for a specific portion of the population offering specialized skills. Same goes for SJ which used to appeal to Catholics who wanted that as a serious aspect of their education. Now, SJ's religiosity is more a traditional thing just like the A&M in Texas. Times have changed and the students today are very secular.
 
JSJ - or anyone else,

Please refresh my memory:

- - when St.J's acquired the Oakdale property?

- - how much StJ's it paid for the parcel?

- - how big is the parcel and what does the parcel consist of (# of buildings)?

- - what was the announced purpose the property would be used for when it was acquired?

- - what it has the property used since it was acquired?

I thought that I read there are environmental concerns about the parcel or buildings (asbestos); is that true?

Thanks 
 
JSJ - or anyone else,

Please refresh my memory:

- - when St.J's acquired the Oakdale property? About 2001

- - how much StJ's it paid for the parcel? Not sure

- - how big is the parcel and what does the parcel consist of (# of buildings)? 175 acres and approximately 5 buildings including the mansion

- - what was the announced purpose the property would be used for when it was acquired? Not sure

- - what it has the property used since it was acquired? If you are asking how it has been used, it was the estate for the CEO of Singer (sewing company). It was then sold to LaSalle Military Academy and SJ bought it in 2001 for a graduate center. Dowling students also use the gym in one of the buildings and weddings/meetings still take place at the mansion.

I thought that I read there are environmental concerns about the parcel or buildings (asbestos); is that true? Probably! The buildings are insanely old, and you can still see many things have been untouched from the 19th century. The library owned by SJ on that campus looks abandoned inside. You can still see LaSalle artifacts there left behind.

Thanks 
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 St. John's on the way to another mistake. In the long run should be seen as the home of the university.
Click to expand...
 

I agree 100% with your assessment. St. John's traditionally attracted the largest number of students from 2 places - Queens and Nassau County, both places with large number of Catholic students. They totally missed the fact that Queens demographics were rapidly changing, and trends in Nassau County were for Catholic students to choose away schools and local universities that were more suburban.

Single-handedly, this failure of planning led to the explosive growth of Hofstra, the substenance of Adelphi, and the emergence of Molloy and even St. Joseph's as viable alternatives to St. John's. Instead, CEO Mr. Harrington is left with a student population that is 60% non-Catholic, and a school that is so non-Catholic that most alumni who haven't seen the campus in 20 years would not recognize its students.

Had the school had just a little better market adeptness, Molloy would still be a nursing school, Adelphi would have gone bust during its biggest problems, and Hofstra would not have exploded. As it is Dowling is about to go under due to poor management. Perhaps its an opportunity to build up a second campus where St. John's can re-establish itself as a Catholic University.
Click to expand...
 

I think you are putting too much emphasis on the religiosity of SJ students. IMO, SJ was originally intended for a specific demographic. As the country gets more secular, it doesn't matter...young people today are overwhelmingly non-religious as compared with previous generations. SJ is seen as "college", not a giant church to most of the students I would presume. I think a good analogy is Texas A&M. The A&M used to stand for Agricultural and Mechanical. The university kept the A&M only for traditional purposes. It no longer shoots for a specific portion of the population offering specialized skills. Same goes for SJ which used to appeal to Catholics who wanted that as a serious aspect of their education. Now, SJ's religiosity is more a traditional thing just like the A&M in Texas. Times have changed and the students today are very secular.
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FYI........

As a matter of policy, the university does not want to see its Catholic population drop below 40%.

Currently the Catholic population of the St. John's freshman class is 44% (an increase from the year before).

The overall (undergrad, grad, law school) Catholic population of the university is about 45%-46%.

That is why the university has instituted financial incentives for those graduating from Catholic high schools to attend St. John's.

In addition, St. John's recently created a Catholic Scholars program (currently 25 students) who have a minimun SAT score of 1200 and a minimum high school average of 93%.
 
That may very well be true, but you must remember a few essential things when polling or receiving demographic info. 1) The student may consider himself a Catholic because he was raised as such, but that does not mean he is active in any way or takes it seriously (i.e attending church regularly). 2) The student may list themselves as Catholic because it sounds better than non-affiliated or atheist (even though I'm an atheist, I realize it's the last group Americans overwhelmingly despise). Just because people list themselves as "Catholic" does not mean they consider it an essential part of their lives. Almost no one goes to church anymore in the 18-25 demographic unless it's for a family function such as a communion or something. You may say to yourself "Well, no one is forcing them to pick Catholic over atheist or non-affiliated" which is true, but there are still huge stigmas that make people ashamed to put anything different. I think older generations would be shocked if I could put them in my shoes for a day just to survey the religiosity of young people today. It's practically nonexistent. Not putting down people's beliefs...believe what you want, but there is no argument that young people are largely either adamantly not religious and willing to admit it, or not religious but pretend they are for social benefit.
 
 St. John's on the way to another mistake. In the long run should be seen as the home of the university.
Click to expand...
 

I agree 100% with your assessment. St. John's traditionally attracted the largest number of students from 2 places - Queens and Nassau County, both places with large number of Catholic students. They totally missed the fact that Queens demographics were rapidly changing, and trends in Nassau County were for Catholic students to choose away schools and local universities that were more suburban.

Single-handedly, this failure of planning led to the explosive growth of Hofstra, the substenance of Adelphi, and the emergence of Molloy and even St. Joseph's as viable alternatives to St. John's. Instead, CEO Mr. Harrington is left with a student population that is 60% non-Catholic, and a school that is so non-Catholic that most alumni who haven't seen the campus in 20 years would not recognize its students.

Had the school had just a little better market adeptness, Molloy would still be a nursing school, Adelphi would have gone bust during its biggest problems, and Hofstra would not have exploded. As it is Dowling is about to go under due to poor management. Perhaps its an opportunity to build up a second campus where St. John's can re-establish itself as a Catholic University.
Click to expand...
 

I think you are putting too much emphasis on the religiosity of SJ students. IMO, SJ was originally intended for a specific demographic. As the country gets more secular, it doesn't matter...young people today are overwhelmingly non-religious as compared with previous generations. SJ is seen as "college", not a giant church to most of the students I would presume. I think a good analogy is Texas A&M. The A&M used to stand for Agricultural and Mechanical. The university kept the A&M only for traditional purposes. It no longer shoots for a specific portion of the population offering specialized skills. Same goes for SJ which used to appeal to Catholics who wanted that as a serious aspect of their education. Now, SJ's religiosity is more a traditional thing just like the A&M in Texas. Times have changed and the students today are very secular.
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Can you then explain why Boston College, Providence, Notre Dame, Loyola, and Villanova are still overwhelmingly Catholic?

I will not debate that to you religion doesn't matter to you or your friends - it's your choice. I will debate vigorously the necessity for Catholic Universities to exist that are there for Catholics to grow in their faith.

The fact is that at present, St. John's is not one of those places.
 
 I would probably say only 2 schools on your list there truly still have some strong connection with being Catholic. Those 2 are Providence, and Notre Dame. Boston College, Loyola, and Nova are just like any other secular school. I'm not doubting there was a time when it actually meant a lot...I'm just saying it's not now. You seem to ignore my point that many people who list themselves as Catholic aren't even what you would likely consider Catholic. With the religious wars ravaging the middle east, priests involved in mass corruption and sexual abuse (some still likely covered up), crazy Tea Party members saying there is legitimate rape, 9/11, Westboro, etc. it's clear the younger generations have had enough. It's the same concept as pretending you are happy even when you are having an awful day just to seem more pleasant. People don't always list themselves as they really are, but rather what they think others want to see. There are many things important to millenials...religion is definitely not one of them. Not saying that to cause a stir, just saying that as fact. It's about as important as eye color.
 
 St. John's on the way to another mistake. In the long run should be seen as the home of the university.
Click to expand...
 

I agree 100% with your assessment. St. John's traditionally attracted the largest number of students from 2 places - Queens and Nassau County, both places with large number of Catholic students. They totally missed the fact that Queens demographics were rapidly changing, and trends in Nassau County were for Catholic students to choose away schools and local universities that were more suburban.

Single-handedly, this failure of planning led to the explosive growth of Hofstra, the substenance of Adelphi, and the emergence of Molloy and even St. Joseph's as viable alternatives to St. John's. Instead, CEO Mr. Harrington is left with a student population that is 60% non-Catholic, and a school that is so non-Catholic that most alumni who haven't seen the campus in 20 years would not recognize its students.

Had the school had just a little better market adeptness, Molloy would still be a nursing school, Adelphi would have gone bust during its biggest problems, and Hofstra would not have exploded. As it is Dowling is about to go under due to poor management. Perhaps its an opportunity to build up a second campus where St. John's can re-establish itself as a Catholic University.
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Hello Beast,

Can't fight the trends.

More than a few Catholic schools have seen a dramatic decline in their Catholic population for a variety of reasons that we are all fluent in.

Heck, many years ago, if you went to a Catholic high school there was no question that you were going to a Catholic college. Obviously that is no longer the case and hasn't been so for quite awhile.

I kid one of my best friends who went to Georgetown (undergrad and law school) if his alma mater is still Catholic.

The Hoya Catholic population is currently about 40%.

DePaul is a tad below 40%.

I would think Villanova is now somewhere between 70%-75% ( a guess on my part). What was it 30-40 years ago ?

Schools like ND, BC, Holy Cross and PC, to name a few, are still overwhelmingly Catholic, but are no where near as culturally and racially diverse as St. John's.

For those on the board who are passionate about this issue, you might want to volunteer to recruit at Catholic high schools in your area and make the case why St. John's should be the school of choice.

Last, but not least, I wouldn't get my hopes up that St. John's is going to develop an anchor campus on Long Island. That ship has sailed.   
 
 From what I recall or inferred the purpose of the oak dale campus was to buy the property and then sell it at a much higher price.
 
 1985, it would seem that way. It doesn't feel like a permanent place at all. It's basically just a huge estate that happens to have a few buildings with classrooms and computers for SJ use. Wouldn't shock me one bit if they sold it within the next 10 yrs if not much sooner.
 
 From what I recall or inferred the purpose of the oak dale campus was to buy the property and then sell it at a much higher price.
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Not sure if SJU paid market price. In Catholic communities, organizations will often sell properties or assets to other Catholic organizations at a favorable price or terms rather than do the same and let the asset go into private hands. In my sector, this frequently happens with hospitals.
 
St.John's University has a seeming lack of transparency for an entity that solicits donations from alums and the general public.
 
 St. John's on the way to another mistake. In the long run should be seen as the home of the university.
Click to expand...
 

I agree 100% with your assessment. St. John's traditionally attracted the largest number of students from 2 places - Queens and Nassau County, both places with large number of Catholic students. They totally missed the fact that Queens demographics were rapidly changing, and trends in Nassau County were for Catholic students to choose away schools and local universities that were more suburban.

Single-handedly, this failure of planning led to the explosive growth of Hofstra, the substenance of Adelphi, and the emergence of Molloy and even St. Joseph's as viable alternatives to St. John's. Instead, CEO Mr. Harrington is left with a student population that is 60% non-Catholic, and a school that is so non-Catholic that most alumni who haven't seen the campus in 20 years would not recognize its students.

Had the school had just a little better market adeptness, Molloy would still be a nursing school, Adelphi would have gone bust during its biggest problems, and Hofstra would not have exploded. As it is Dowling is about to go under due to poor management. Perhaps its an opportunity to build up a second campus where St. John's can re-establish itself as a Catholic University.
Click to expand...
 

Hello Beast,

Can't fight the trends.

More than a few Catholic schools have seen a dramatic decline in their Catholic population for a variety of reasons that we are all fluent in.

Heck, many years ago, if you went to a Catholic high school there was no question that you were going to a Catholic college. Obviously that is no longer the case and hasn't been so for quite awhile.

I kid one of my best friends who went to Georgetown (undergrad and law school) if his alma mater is still Catholic.

The Hoya Catholic population is currently about 40%.

DePaul is a tad below 40%.

I would think Villanova is now somewhere between 70%-75% ( a guess on my part). What was it 30-40 years ago ?

Schools like ND, BC, Holy Cross and PC, to name a few, are still overwhelmingly Catholic, but are no where near as culturally and racially diverse as St. John's.

For those on the board who are passionate about this issue, you might want to volunteer to recruit at Catholic high schools in your area and make the case why St. John's should be the school of choice.

Last, but not least, I wouldn't get my hopes up that St. John's is going to develop an anchor campus on Long Island. That ship has sailed.   
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JSJ,

The trends tht you speak about essentially are fueled by two facts:

1) Many Catholic universities were founded in urban areas, to offer reasonably priced educations to the sons and daughters of Catholic immigrants. Urban areas are very often the landing spots for people coming into America. Queens hasn't changed so much in this role, since immigrants and their offspring have been settling here for 150 years. The only difference is that the immigrants are no longer Catholic. Nearly all urban areas are the same, and many Catholic Universities in urban areas were/are largely commuter schools.

2) Several schools - notably Georgetown and to an extent Fordham (both Jesuit interestingly) have really distanced themselves from their Catholic roots, both in the students they try to attract and their positions on hotbed topics. They encourage a diverse secular environment.

3) appreciate your advice on working to change this trend at St. John's. I spend a good amount of my time marketing my company's services, and I never believed in selling something that I didn't believe in 100%. If there was an avenue to participate in the reshaping of SJU to offer more of a faith based education both in course offerings and requirements, as well as repositioning the school mission, I'd gladly participate in that.


I know only one board member who was passionate enough about SJU to actually send his own children there, although I am sure there are others. I'm not sure I understand the rationale to be passionate enough to be involved, but still have the mindset that the school may be good enough for others, but not my own kids. 
 
 I would probably say only 2 schools on your list there truly still have some strong connection with being Catholic. Those 2 are Providence, and Notre Dame. Boston College, Loyola, and Nova are just like any other secular school. I'm not doubting there was a time when it actually meant a lot...I'm just saying it's not now. You seem to ignore my point that many people who list themselves as Catholic aren't even what you would likely consider Catholic. With the religious wars ravaging the middle east, priests involved in mass corruption and sexual abuse (some still likely covered up), crazy Tea Party members saying there is legitimate rape, 9/11, Westboro, etc. it's clear the younger generations have had enough. It's the same concept as pretending you are happy even when you are having an awful day just to seem more pleasant. People don't always list themselves as they really are, but rather what they think others want to see. There are many things important to millenials...religion is definitely not one of them. Not saying that to cause a stir, just saying that as fact. It's about as important as eye color.
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I'm not going to go through this again with you. We kn ow you are an avowed atheist, even attending rallies in DC to promote atheism. I agree than many kids your age are atheist or feel no real compunction for faith. I also agree that the sex scandal in the Church (and other places) has had a profound impact on the faith of young and old minds. I'd ask the moderators to edit out your political comments, since they only incite ire. I'd say I'd agree with you that religion has no purpose in your life or that of your friends. Your lack of faith doesn't provide a case in point for the necessity of religious institutions to provide faith based educations for their members. In fact your case proves the opposite.
 
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