NYC Crime Rate

I am both a former Rockaway resident and served as Director of Staff Development at Creedmoor Psychiatric Center for fifteen years.  This thread covers lots of stuff I care about deeply, even from my long time home in South Florida.

The Rockaways had (during my time at Creedmoor when I lived in Belle Harbor) the highest concentration of discharged psychiatric patients living in residential facilities in the country.  Most of these people were more likely to be the victims of violence than the perpetrators.  Their disabilities that prevented them from resuming independent lives made them vulnerable to exploitation by organizations and individuals.  Some of the medications they consumed to allow their discharge from the hospital had severe physical side effects and almost all of the medications did not address the constellation of so-called negative symptoms that constituted lost capacity needed for effective daily living.  This is a huge topic with which I am still involved so I will move on to my next point with my usual brag about my wife who is a clinical psychologist and who for fifteen years ran a peer support group for discharged schizophrenia patients holding full time jobs that continued even after she moved on to direct a clinic in Westchester.

My next point is to restate the essential part of the dog and pony show that my late former boss at Bronx Psychiatric Center, Leroy Carmichael, and I would run at many different venues.  I was at Creedmoor and he was Executive Director of Elmhurst Hospital Center when the consequences of the non-accountability associated with the Community Mental Health Centers Act passed in the wake of the Kennedy assassination became fully manifest.  The law was so poorly written that almost all of the funds went to people's pet projects on the "worried well" rather than to effective aftercare for the thousands of psychiatric patients finally regaining some freedom after the introduction of phenothiazine based medications and scandals about mistreatment of the mentally ill in "warehouses of shame."  It was a commission under the leadership of First Lady Rosalyn Carter that recommended cutting off funding to the Community Mental Health Centers Act which in it self is indicative of how bad things were; i.e. a Democratic President shutting down a supposed health care program because it wasn't doing what it was intended to do.

The consequences of that mis-expenditure of hundreds of millions of dollars is still felt today, both in lack of services and distrust of providers wanting to innovate new services for folks with mental illness.  When Covid finally dissipates to the point that person to person encounters are fully safe, the interested and adventurous on this board might want to find out about "The Living Museum", a program on the Creedmoor grounds that empowers recovering artists.  There are in fact lots of things that work but the misdeeds of the past make it very difficult to get past NIMBY and funding obstacles.
 
Maybe the crime is down, but Jaquan Sanders needs to be charged with breaking and entering into my heart and then stomping on it
 
My daughter and her boyfriend at Home Depot on 59th and 3rd just now, when a clearly deranged guy comes down the aisle behind them and shoves her BF in to some shelves, then just walks away. Had her BF picked up something and cracked the nutcase over the head, as I would have done, he would have been charged. So here's a case of an assault that never gets reported. Happens all the time.  This is the current state of affairs in NYC. To those of you who don't live here, with all due respect, you have no idea what you're talking about. 
 
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Right across the street and just a little while later. My daughter feels strongly it's same guy [attachment=2244]7F58B2BD-D277-4745-A6EF-478EC306A4FE.jpeg[/attachment]

This is a good wake up call for her. Like a lot of other young people(and many older people) , she's relatively oblivious. 
 
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Thanks from out of state Monte. There are nut jobs everywhere, but the city seems to have more per capita than a lot of places.
 
I hear you loud & clear Monte and couldn't agree more. I took a bus and three different subway lines from Queens  to a NYC HS in the late 60s and never felt the least bit afraid. On the other hand, NYC from the late 70s to mid 90s was a pretty dangerous and unsightly place to work or go to school in both of which I did. From the mid nineties to the time we moved to NC in 2011 it was a very nice & safe city to visit which we did often from central Jersey.

Now we go to see two of our daughters who live in Brooklyn and Jersey  City a couple of times a year. While my kids tell me the city is relatively "safe" all you have to do is ride the subway and walk the streets to see how much it has changed, none of it for the better. Harassment (and I'm not just talking about panhandling which is fine) on the subways just seems to be an accepted part of city living which is not the NYC I remember. Statistics are statistics but no one who grew up there can spend more than a couple days in NYC without feeling how less safe it seems.   Maybe part of that is getting older, but not all of it.

Glad your daughter and her boyfriend survived their "incident" w/o serious injury.
 
NCJohnnie post=440309 said:
I hear you loud & clear Monte and couldn't agree more. I took a bus and three different subway lines from Queens  to a NYC HS in the late 60s and never felt the least bit afraid. On the other hand, NYC from the late 70s to mid 90s was a pretty dangerous and unsightly place to work or go to school in both of which I did. From the mid nineties to the time we moved to NC in 2011 it was a very nice & safe city to visit which we did often from central Jersey.

Now we go to see two of our daughters who live in Brooklyn and Jersey  City a couple of times a year. While my kids tell me the city is relatively "safe" all you have to do is ride the subway and walk the streets to see how much it has changed, none of it for the better. Harassment (and I'm not just talking about panhandling which is fine) on the subways just seems to be an accepted part of city living which is not the NYC I remember. Statistics are statistics but no one who grew up there can spend more than a couple days in NYC without feeling how less safe it seems.   Maybe part of that is getting older, but not all of it.

Glad your daughter and her boyfriend survived their "incident" w/o serious injury.
Thanks NC. There's definitely a strong sense of "disregard for the law", simply because many laws are not being enforced. So, when the police are not enforcing laws, crime goes up but the statistics don't support the increase. My daughter and her BF did the right thing; they reported to the store manager and got the hell out of there. In hindsight, it could have been a lot worse. These are the kind of low level crimes that most New Yorkers have come to expect. For many, the attitude is "no big deal". Unfortunately, low level crimes often lead to more violent crimes. Hope you're daughters stay safe! 
 
This thread is conflating a few angles on the same subject, and "how safe someone feels" is a personal opinion, completely and rightfully subjective.  I live in Rockaway, and not on the west end (not "uptown" for folks that know).  What most people on this board should be concerned about is random crime, unprovoked.  Gangs are active, but they've always been active, and from when you were a kid you basically knew where and who to avoid.  Stray bullet?  Wrong place at the wrong time?  - yes, totally possible, but very very unlikely for anyone reading this living in NYC, or who have sons, daughters, parents living here.  I was a touring musician for many years, and places like Little Rock, Shreveport, Tulsa, Kansas City, and Memphis make NYC look tame.  Crime and fighting against crime is completely different in 2021, we have cameras everywhere, we have technology that gives cops a lot of tools to track down someone, and we seem to have come to a realization and acknowledgement that enforcing the law has a long history of inequality.  I totally get why anyone would be wary of NYC crime stats put out by the city, but I think you could say that at ANY point in this town's history.  But in 2021, nothing big goes unnoticed, cameras and phones catch every moment.  You will know if someone got randomly pushed onto the tracks at 59th/Columbus Circle.  You will know if someone tried to use a pocket knife during a dispute on the A train - it will be recorded.  If you felt safer at other points in time in NY, some of that might be due to the fact that a lot of things weren't on the radar, and there wasn't video footage to show the severity.  Overhearing about someone shoved onto subway tracks in 1988 feels different that actually seeing it happen from 3 different angles in 2021.  That's my take...
 
Shootings are double what the were two years ago. Murders up over 40%. That is skyrocketing. 

It is also a direct result of horrific laws and policies implemented by State and local politicians and DAs. It is a disgrace.
 
stjohnschris post=440317 said:
This thread is conflating a few angles on the same subject, and "how safe someone feels" is a personal opinion, completely and rightfully subjective.  I live in Rockaway, and not on the west end (not "uptown" for folks that know).  What most people on this board should be concerned about is random crime, unprovoked.  Gangs are active, but they've always been active, and from when you were a kid you basically knew where and who to avoid.  Stray bullet?  Wrong place at the wrong time?  - yes, totally possible, but very very unlikely for anyone reading this living in NYC, or who have sons, daughters, parents living here.  I was a touring musician for many years, and places like Little Rock, Shreveport, Tulsa, Kansas City, and Memphis make NYC look tame.  Crime and fighting against crime is completely different in 2021, we have cameras everywhere, we have technology that gives cops a lot of tools to track down someone, and we seem to have come to a realization and acknowledgement that enforcing the law has a long history of inequality.  I totally get why anyone would be wary of NYC crime stats put out by the city, but I think you could say that at ANY point in this town's history.  But in 2021, nothing big goes unnoticed, cameras and phones catch every moment.  You will know if someone got randomly pushed onto the tracks at 59th/Columbus Circle.  You will know if someone tried to use a pocket knife during a dispute on the A train - it will be recorded.  If you felt safer at other points in time in NY, some of that might be due to the fact that a lot of things weren't on the radar, and there wasn't video footage to show the severity.  Overhearing about someone shoved onto subway tracks in 1988 feels different that actually seeing it happen from 3 different angles in 2021.  That's my take...
All valid points Chris, which is why I rely on my eyes and ears. I lived in east NY in 60s, then off to Bushwick. I also know the Rockaways quite well, having hung up on the beaches as a teen. I still go there often; Bungalow, The Wharf, etc So I grew up with a pretty good sense of the streets. Took buses and subways everywhere from about 9 or 10 years old. Never have I seen the kind of random attacks that I see now, like what happened to my daughter's BF. At the end of the day, you are correct. It's a matter of perception. I felt safe in NY 20 years ago. I don't now. And to take it step further, almost everyone that I know who lives here feels the same as I do. 
 
Proud Alumn post=440318 said:
Shootings are double what the were two years ago. Murders up over 40%. That is skyrocketing. 

It is also a direct result of horrific laws and policies implemented by State and local politicians and DAs. It is a disgrace.
The naysayers on the board, most of whom don't live here, will say "but it's not as bad as it was 30 years ago!". Let them walk the streets of NYC at night alone and tell me how safe they feel. 
 
Monte post=440321 said:
Proud Alumn post=440318 said:
Shootings are double what the were two years ago. Murders up over 40%. That is skyrocketing. 

It is also a direct result of horrific laws and policies implemented by State and local politicians and DAs. It is a disgrace.
The naysayers on the board, most of whom don't live here, will say "but it's not as bad as it was 30 years ago!". Let them walk the streets of NYC at night alone and tell me how safe they feel. 

Not sure if you're if you're referring to me, since we had an exchange about this earlier in this thread, but you should have just quoted me to make it easier.

I'll be happy to share that I live here and have been living here for many years now. Born in Brooklyn, living in Manhattan for going on 15 years now. Raising a young son here now as well. Personally, no I don't feel totally safe going out at night these days. There is so much to discuss here, but the reality is, there have always been crazy people in the city. Before social media, did we hear about all of these unprovoked attacks as much as we do now? Then the police is a whole nother issue who don't seem motivated to do anything about it at this point (maybe feelings hurt over defund the police?).

Regardless, I personally remain totally aware of my surroundings, and be street smart, which I've always tried to. Since the pandemic, I'm out and about in the city with my wife and young son every single weekend, and we've never been in any sort of danger. I commute to work, and never have been in danger. If you sense a mentally disturbed person lingering, remove yourself from the situation, that's what I do, nothing new here.
 
Not going into whether it was right or wrong but years ago mentally disturbed persons were much more readily taken to psychiatric hospitals then they are today and kept there for a lot longer period of time.
 
Room112 post=440325 said:
Monte post=440321 said:
Proud Alumn post=440318 said:
Shootings are double what the were two years ago. Murders up over 40%. That is skyrocketing. 

It is also a direct result of horrific laws and policies implemented by State and local politicians and DAs. It is a disgrace.
The naysayers on the board, most of whom don't live here, will say "but it's not as bad as it was 30 years ago!". Let them walk the streets of NYC at night alone and tell me how safe they feel. 

Not sure if you're if you're referring to me, since we had an exchange about this earlier in this thread, but you should have just quoted me to make it easier.

I'll be happy to share that I live here and have been living here for many years now. Born in Brooklyn, living in Manhattan for going on 15 years now. Raising a young son here now as well. Personally, no I don't feel totally safe going out at night these days. There is so much to discuss here, but the reality is, there have always been crazy people in the city. Before social media, did we hear about all of these unprovoked attacks as much as we do now? Then the police is a whole nother issue who don't seem motivated to do anything about it at this point (maybe feelings hurt over defund the police?).

Regardless, I personally remain totally aware of my surroundings, and be street smart, which I've always tried to. Since the pandemic, I'm out and about in the city with my wife and young son every single weekend, and we've never been in any sort of danger. I commute to work, and never have been in danger. If you sense a mentally disturbed person lingering, remove yourself from the situation, that's what I do, nothing new here.
I was not referring to you specifically 112. Just a quick story: Last Thursday night I had dinner with a friend in the Village. 5th and 9th. It was a beautiful night and normally I might walk home to my apartment on the upper east side. But by the time I got to 14th and 3rd, I had had enough of looking over my shoulders, stepping over people sleeping on the sidewalk, avoiding beggars, etc. If that makes me callous, insensitive, etc, so be it. Point being, what would have normally been an enjoyable stroll home on a gorgeous night, quickly turned in to anything but enjoyable. So I took the bus on 3rd Ave. Yes these issues have always existed, but not to the degree that they do now IMO. The quality of life is rapidly eroding.  Different city then 20 years ago. Guess I was spoiled. 
 
bamafan post=440329 said:
Not going into whether it was right or wrong but years ago mentally disturbed persons were much more readily taken to psychiatric hospitals then they are today and kept there for a lot longer period of time.
It was right. We both know that. Many are a danger to themselves and others. 
 
Monte post=440332 said:
bamafan post=440329 said:
Not going into whether it was right or wrong but years ago mentally disturbed persons were much more readily taken to psychiatric hospitals then they are today and kept there for a lot longer period of time.
It was right. We both know that. Many are a danger to themselves and others. 
Wrong, oh great thespian board member.  Danger to self or others is a lot different than the old "best coffee" model of case assignment.  This guy (male because it is a lot harder to get taken off the street if you are female) looks a "little crazy", "like he's on something", and like "he's bothering people." 
Cop I - Where should we take him, the psych emergency room, detox, or central booking?
Cop II- "Who's got the best coffee?" (or where was that really cute nurse or any number of other non-case-related variables.)

To my knowledge the largest psychiatric service setting in the US right now is the LA County jail.  There is a big difference between "loss of control" violence and instrumental violence (to obtain a desired outcome learned from seeing violence used to obtain that outcome before).  I have known many psychiatric patients who have been through Rikers on multiple occasions and their description of Rikers was "wild."

Big issue in the behavioral health field since I started working in 1965 has always been not trying to fix clinically those behaviors that reflect societal issues.  One possibility for this discussion is the impact of crowding on quality of life in the city.  I don't like to go below 96th street, too congested for this old guy.

p.s. Worked on a project that taught clinicians to differentiate behavior that was "prison survival behavior" from clinical pathology behavior.

 
 
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fuchsia post=440334 said:
Monte post=440332 said:
bamafan post=440329 said:
Not going into whether it was right or wrong but years ago mentally disturbed persons were much more readily taken to psychiatric hospitals then they are today and kept there for a lot longer period of time.
It was right. We both know that. Many are a danger to themselves and others. 
Wrong, oh great thespian board member.  Danger to self or others is a lot different than the old "best coffee" model of case assignment.  This guy (male because it is a lot harder to get taken off the street if you are female) looks a "little crazy", "like he's on something", and like "he's bothering people." 
Cop I - Where should we take him, the psych emergency room, detox, or central booking?
Cop II- "Who's got the best coffee?" (or where was that really cute nurse or any number of other non-case-related variables.)

To my knowledge the largest psychiatric service setting in the US right now is the LA County jail.  There is a big difference between "loss of control" violence and instrumental violence (to obtain a desired outcome learned from seeing violence used to obtain that outcome before).  I have known many psychiatric patients who have been through Rikers on multiple occasions and their description of Rikers was "wild."

Big issue in the behavioral health field since I started working in 1965 has always been not trying to fix clinically those behaviors that reflect societal issues.  One possibility for this discussion is the impact of crowding on quality of life in the city.  I don't like to go below 96th street, too congested for this old guy.

p.s. Worked on a project that taught clinicians to differentiate behavior that was "prison survival behavior" from clinical pathology behavior.




 
While I appreciate that you consider me a "great" thespian(clearly you've seen my Teeter Freestep commercial), I do have a ways to go before I reach the lofty heights of, say, a Dana Andrews. Hopefully one day I'll be a B lister as well. As for the rest of your reply, to be perfectly honest, you quickly lost me. So I can't even counter. While I respect your opinion and the work you've done immensely(especially since my daughter has a psych degree and is considering grad school), I doubt we will ever see eye to eye .  We both have "real life" experiences when it comes to mental health, me from the streets and you as a clinician. So, as with debating politics with those that I don't see eye to eye with, I won't even try to debate mental health with you. 
 
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Many of us know police officers - family or friends.  

FWIW, my father in law retired from NYPD after a highly decorated nearly 40 year career.  He was a 3-star chief leading several of the most visible & critical bureaus.
Years in meetings w/ commissioners Bratton, Kerik & Kelly. He still speaks regularly with many still in command.

Its clear to him that the general safety of the city is at a several decade low.  During my last visit in Aug. it was the first time he was genuinely concerned about me taking my teen daughter into the city to spend the day.

Mayor's office policies, coupled with severely apathetic and unqualified officers due to lax recruiting and oversight and lack of leadership accountability all play a part.

That said, my most recent day in city was fine.. few shady characters but if i compared it to my day in Philadelphia about 2 years ago, NYC seemed so much safer.
 
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RedStormNC post=440356 said:
Many of us know police officers - family or friends.  

FWIW, my father in law retired from NYPD after a highly decorated nearly 40 year career.  He was a 3-star chief leading several of the most visible & critical bureaus.
Years in meetings w/ commissioners Bratton, Kerik & Kelly. He still speaks regularly with many still in command.

Its clear to him that the general safety of the city is at a several decade low.  During my last visit in Aug. it was the first time he was genuinely concerned about me taking my teen daughter into the city to spend the day.

Mayor's office policies, coupled with severely apathetic and unqualified officers due to lax recruiting and oversight and lack of leadership accountability all play a part.

That said, my most recent day in city was fine.. few shady characters but if i compared it to my day in Philadelphia about 2 years ago, NYC seemed so much safer.
I appreciate the perspective of your Father in Law. I'm hearing the exact same things from friends and family in law enforcement. And while I'm not enamored with of any of the NYC DAs,  the Philly DA is an unmitigated disaster. So I'm not surprised to hear of your experience there. Just glad you and your family made it out safely. 
 
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