Next Coach

[Spocky Ramone]

But the FACT is those kids had never won when the schedule got harder in conference play so just because you think magically they were going to win because they were seniors doesn't mean it's so

Here's a FACT: if you write the word fact in capital letters it doesn't make what you said truer.

I don't believe in magic. I believe in incremental progress, because I've seen it over and over. Sure, sometimes there's magic, like when David Cain as a senior is amazing despite having barely played before. Mostly though what happens is that a player or a team put it all together because suddenly they're all grown up. Like what happened to Dom Pointer - a senior. Or Donald Emanuel - a senior. Or like how Lavin made the tournament twice, both times with a bunch of seniors. Louie made the hall of fame playing seniors - because except in rare instances they were bigger and smarter and more mature than their younger team mates. I would think that self-evident: that four years in a course of university study engenders improvement in the student. It seems self evident to me that senior math majors are better at math than freshmen. That senior art majors are better painters than freshmen. That seems to be the entire basis of pedagogy.

You're free to believe that because Lavin once nodded to you in the hallway or whatever he's a great coach who praise god laid hands upon DJ Kennedy and a miracle occurred. The evidence though is that he's a charlatan and that the divine relic you're worshiping is a fugazi.

I dont believe Lavin was a great coach and I killed him plenty his final year and also at games which tons of posters can verify because I sit with them, I just don't believe he was as bad as some say and I don't think he is nearly as bad a person as some say

I believe in incremental progress like you also BUT this is FACT

Norms last 3 teams went 5-13 6-12 and 6-12 in conference play where competition increases outside of cupcakes

Fact there was no incremental progress between the 2nd and 3rd year for those kids. They went 6-12 each year. That is an indisputable fact.

What is also fact is cbssportsline rated Norm;s last season strength of schedule a 72 and Lavins a 21. So they are saying Lavins first year SOS ranking was over 200% higher ranked actually almost 250% higher than the year before and Lavin with the same players got 100% better conference results turning 6-12 to 12-6. This isn't me speculating. This is FACT

Norm's last season those kids were 0-7 vs ranked teams and 6-12 in conference. The next year the same kids were 6-7 against ranked teams and 12-6 in conference. That's not just getting a year older. That's on the new staff that Lavin put together. Side note, in 09/10 BE was #3 in conference RPI, in 10/11 they were #1 so he did it against a stronger conference too. I think, however, that STJ only get a season and a bit out of Lavin and like many have said he was relatively useless (or even more useless depending on who you are) after the cancer.

And I was critical of the Mullin hiring from day one but you got to give him more than 38 games before you start solidifying your opinions. Especially since he was so inexperienced coming in, you have to hope he's still in the learning curve phase and better days are coming. If we're still saying that after 4 years this thread would be appropriate.

I think we can all agree that Norm sucked, and most agree that Lav sucked just a little less than Norm. Neither was the answer. Thankfully both shipped have long sailed.

But, like drunken sailors on shore leave, they have left us with a "memory" that will be with us until we obtain the antibiotic of a Final Four.

 

[we are sju]

Norm did not give Lavin a tourney team.

Revisionist nonsense.

If Mullin leaves and Joe Schmo makes the tourney with Owens and Ellison as his two best players next year I will be sure to give Mullin the credit you think he will deserve.

More nonsense. I know you hate Norm and you don't want to give him credit for anything. But those TEN SENIORS Lavin inherited were Norm's players: he recruited them and coached them for three years. As juniors they won seventeen games. Assuming even a marginal improvement for the TEN SENIORS Lavin inherited - almost all of whom went on to play professional basketball, even Dele Coker - that's 20 wins. I'm not arguing that Norm was a better tactician than Mike Dunlap, but you cannot convince me that any of the learned CYO coaches who post here who know so much about basketball would not have coached that team to the tournament by simply rolling out the balls. Which as anyone who watched that chowderhead Lavin coach for even a short period of time knows, that's what he did.

Lavin won his first year because he inherited a bunch of upperclassmen - none of whom were highly recruited. The next year he had a bunch of underclassmen that were highly recruited and they got their heads kicked in. The next year they were mediocre. He only made the tournament again when they were seniors. The lesson to be taken from that is not that Norm was an awful coach. We learned that a long time ago - just as we have learned that even lousy coaches (like Brian Mahoney and Mike Jarvis) win every once in a while. The lesson is that except in extraordinary circumstances upperclassmen have an advantage over underclassmen. Which is why the taking to the divan with smelling salts over Mullin six games into what is essentially his first recruiting class is so very very very silly.

He didn't start the best two players on that team.
If Norm came back Hardy and Brownlee were not going to have same role and we do not make tourney

 

[we are sju]

Amazing that some posters are years later still obsessing over Coach Robert's.

Give it a few years and Lavin will get there for those of you that hate him

 

[shecky82]

But the FACT is those kids had never won when the schedule got harder in conference play so just because you think magically they were going to win because they were seniors doesn't mean it's so

Here's a FACT: if you write the word fact in capital letters it doesn't make what you said truer.

I don't believe in magic. I believe in incremental progress, because I've seen it over and over. Sure, sometimes there's magic, like when David Cain as a senior is amazing despite having barely played before. Mostly though what happens is that a player or a team put it all together because suddenly they're all grown up. Like what happened to Dom Pointer - a senior. Or Donald Emanuel - a senior. Or like how Lavin made the tournament twice, both times with a bunch of seniors. Louie made the hall of fame playing seniors - because except in rare instances they were bigger and smarter and more mature than their younger team mates. I would think that self-evident: that four years in a course of university study engenders improvement in the student. It seems self evident to me that senior math majors are better at math than freshmen. That senior art majors are better painters than freshmen. That seems to be the entire basis of pedagogy.

You're free to believe that because Lavin once nodded to you in the hallway or whatever he's a great coach who praise god laid hands upon DJ Kennedy and a miracle occurred. The evidence though is that he's a charlatan and that the divine relic you're worshiping is a fugazi.

I dont believe Lavin was a great coach and I killed him plenty his final year and also at games which tons of posters can verify because I sit with them, I just don't believe he was as bad as some say and I don't think he is nearly as bad a person as some say

I believe in incremental progress like you also BUT this is FACT

Norms last 3 teams went 5-13 6-12 and 6-12 in conference play where competition increases outside of cupcakes

Fact there was no incremental progress between the 2nd and 3rd year for those kids. They went 6-12 each year. That is an indisputable fact.

What is also fact is cbssportsline rated Norm;s last season strength of schedule a 72 and Lavins a 21. So they are saying Lavins first year SOS ranking was over 200% higher ranked actually almost 250% higher than the year before and Lavin with the same players got 100% better conference results turning 6-12 to 12-6. This isn't me speculating. This is FACT

Norm's last season those kids were 0-7 vs ranked teams and 6-12 in conference. The next year the same kids were 6-7 against ranked teams and 12-6 in conference. That's not just getting a year older. That's on the new staff that Lavin put together. Side note, in 09/10 BE was #3 in conference RPI, in 10/11 they were #1 so he did it against a stronger conference too. I think, however, that STJ only get a season and a bit out of Lavin and like many have said he was relatively useless (or even more useless depending on who you are) after the cancer.

And I was critical of the Mullin hiring from day one but you got to give him more than 38 games before you start solidifying your opinions. Especially since he was so inexperienced coming in, you have to hope he's still in the learning curve phase and better days are coming. If we're still saying that after 4 years this thread would be appropriate.

Spot on post austour

 

[fun]

If Norm came back Hardy and Brownlee were not going to have same role and we do not make tourney

Yeah well I disagree. I wouldn't argue that the season would have turned out exactly same way it did, with the same number of victories over the same opponents in the same fashion by the same score, that would be moronic and to the extent it's attributed to me is a straw man, so called because it is an argument without a brain, but winning 20 games and making the tournament I have no doubt that sort of incremental progress would have happened. Happens all the time. Even happened to that dope Lavin, who squeaked into the tournament that one time with his seniors despite being a horrible atrocious coach. Anyway you seem to have given up defending your original nonsense - "Norm did not give Lavin a tourney team" - which clearly he did, and have fallen back to arguing that Mike Dunlap was a better tactician than Norm. If you'd said that three days ago we wouldn't be having this tedious discussion because duh. So it seems my work here is done.

 

[we are sju]

If Norm came back Hardy and Brownlee were not going to have same role and we do not make tourney

Yeah well I disagree. I wouldn't argue that the season would have turned out exactly same way it did, with the same number of victories over the same opponents in the same fashion by the same score, that would be moronic and to the extent it's attributed to me is a straw man, so called because it is an argument without a brain, but winning 20 games and making the tournament I have no doubt that sort of incremental progress would have happened. Happens all the time. Even happened to that dope Lavin, who squeaked into the tournament that one time with his seniors despite being a horrible atrocious coach. Anyway you seem to have given up defending your original nonsense - "Norm did not give Lavin a tourney team" - which clearly he did, and have fallen back to arguing that Mike Dunlap was a better tactician than Norm. If you'd said that three days ago we wouldn't be having this tedious discussion because duh. So it seems my work here is done.

My only point is Lavin gets credit for either realizing or listening to whoever told him to run offense through Hardy.
I give him credit for that decision. And with a gun to me head though we wouldn't have been terrible, I would still say we would not have been a tourney team if Norm was still there that year.

Mahoney was a bad coach and went to tourney with Louie's guys. But he gets credit for the fact that Cain had the year he had. Would that have happened under Louie? Who knows but it happened so Mahoney had a good year and it should be taken away because they were "Louie's players".

I also liked Fran and did not like Jarvis. Thought Fran was a better coach. But I still don't think Elite 8 team would have had same success under Fran.

 

[westchesterjoe]

I have seen some BB in over 60 Years of watching Redmen Play. Louie was a Very Good Coach who won consistently with good talent and excelled with the few Years he had Mullin, Jackson, Wennington, Berry, all first round NBA draft picks.

Mahoney was the loyal Assistant who succeeded Louie but, really was a poor Coach, being let go at his Alma Mater, Manhattan for terrible losing seasons. He had terrific talent with Lopez, Hamilton, etc and underachieved badly.

Fraschilla was a good Coach, Recruiter, etc but, had to suffer the FH Years and, all that entailed. He would have had a nice career here, if they paid him better and, not sought greener pastures.. The locker room incident that apparently unnerved FH was way overblown.

Jarvis was a horrible choice for Coach and again, FH made a poor choice at the time. McKillop would have been a better choice or, a Jay Wright, who was still at Hofstra, I believe.

Roberts was a highly regarded Assistant Coach but, had no Rep as a head Coach, unless you saw the awful results at Queens College.. He never demonstrated any ability to get the Landesbergs or Fields or, any top NYC kids.

Lavin came in a nice wrapper until the Bruins fans were all over our Boards with their comments on the contrary. Still , he was a Name and we expected a change in fortunes. He delivered Satisfactory results but, would have crashed and burned badly, given any extension or, had Coached last year. He never recruited well, after the DLO class. If you count Jordan as a success, which is questionable for many, many reasons.

Mullin has our School's Pedigree in the highest level of Achievement . HOF playing career, NBA front office Executive, etc. Not being a Head Coach before is blown way out of proportion by many on this Board.. He has been exposed to Bobby Knight, Don Nelson, Larry Bird, Chuck Dailey, Mike Montgomery, George Karl, etc during his career and, surely learned from all of them, plus Louie!

He hasn't had enough time to get all the parts he will have to win, just yet. He will ultimately be a great Coach, if he chooses a long Career.

 

[fuchsia]

Fraschilla's rep re: abusiveness toward players was being perceived as racist in tone. Jarvis could coach defense.

 

[we are sju]

I have seen some BB in over 60 Years of watching Redmen Play. Louie was a Very Good Coach who won consistently with good talent and excelled with the few Years he had Mullin, Jackson, Wennington, Berry, all first round NBA draft picks.

Mahoney was the loyal Assistant who succeeded Louie but, really was a poor Coach, being let go at his Alma Mater, Manhattan for terrible losing seasons. He had terrific talent with Lopez, Hamilton, etc and underachieved badly.

Fraschilla was a good Coach, Recruiter, etc but, had to suffer the FH Years and, all that entailed. He would have had a nice career here, if they paid him better and, not sought greener pastures.. The locker room incident that apparently unnerved FH was way overblown.

Jarvis was a horrible choice for Coach and again, FH made a poor choice at the time. McKillop would have been a better choice or, a Jay Wright, who was still at Hofstra, I believe.

Roberts was a highly regarded Assistant Coach but, had no Rep as a head Coach, unless you saw the awful results at Queens College.. He never demonstrated any ability to get the Landesbergs or Fields or, any top NYC kids.

Lavin came in a nice wrapper until the Bruins fans were all over our Boards with their comments on the contrary. Still , he was a Name and we expected a change in fortunes. He delivered Satisfactory results but, would have crashed and burned badly, given any extension or, had Coached last year. He never recruited well, after the DLO class. If you count Jordan as a success, which is questionable for many, many reasons.

Mullin has our School's Pedigree in the highest level of Achievement . HOF playing career, NBA front office Executive, etc. Not being a Head Coach before is blown way out of proportion by many on this Board.. He has been exposed to Bobby Knight, Don Nelson, Larry Bird, Chuck Dailey, Mike Montgomery, George Karl, etc during his career and, surely learned from all of them, plus Louie!

He hasn't had enough time to get all the parts he will have to win, just yet. He will ultimately be a great Coach, if he chooses a long Career.

Wanted Fran to work out and thought we were headed in right direction. Got to know a player on his team and told me all the players hated Fran and were happy he got fired.