NCAA Tournament Thread

[beast of the east]

Kentucky started 5 freshman. Also watching the elite 8 this weekend got me thinking(not always a good thing) about the talent level of the kids on the 8 teams compared to our talent level. Of our main 8 players, 6 were 4 star recruits coming out of High School. One(Jordan) was a 5 star recruit and one(Sanchez) a JC AA.
From a High School ranking perspective, , that rivals any other team in the elite 8 with the exception of maybe Kentucky.

Yup.

But, with that talent in mind, it's shocking at times how far away we seem from these teams in certain respects, especially offensively. I had the chance to sit very close to the action Friday night, and with no rooting interest was just observing. The structure, discipline, and ball movement from these teams on offense is really what jumped out contrasted against our games.

While we lacked consistency in these departments (to our ultimate demise the last 2 weeks of the season), at our highest points this year I thought we competed defensively, on the backboards, and for 50/50 balls at the level those games were played Friday night.

But we are a world away offensively. Even in the stretches where the teams weren't scoring (largely do to the defensive intensity of the games), there was no dribbling east/west 30 feet from the basket, no out of control 1 on 1, no one pass and shot. They trusted their stuff and ran it consistently for all 40 minutes. They were executing what team offense looks like at the highest levels of Division 1 college basketball. We do not do that.

Those teams that played yesterday really move the ball. They have superior basketball talents that take and make tough shots. I don't think if you gave our players to Ollie or Calipari that the results are much better.

I respectfully + wholeheartedly disagree.

+1, also have to disagree here Beast. I am not saying that, collectively, MSU doesn't have more talent than we do. But the gap between talent is far less than the gap between the way the teams play on the floor, and that's the critical point.

And I think that ties back to perhaps the main point. When the MSU players were coming in, how much more talent did they have on paper than when the SJU players were coming in? That's where I really think you'll find very little gap between us and all but the very top few teams in the country (which perhaps makes MSU not the best example). The top coaches cultivate their players and those players get materially better over the course of their careers.

We have not had that kind of player development, at all. On a team full of players who had been with the program 2 and 3 years this past season, how many do you look at and say "that kid has gotten so much better since he was a freshman"? That, to me, is as big a problem as any we face under the current regime. These teams may have better players than us now - at least players playing better than ours now - but I don't know how much better they were coming in.

You give our players to Izzo for 12 months, put them in the bracket MSU was playing in, and I think that team is playing at the Garden this weekend also.

Ironic that you should mention MSU because they were one of the teams that I specifically looked at, and then looked up their players. As you said, those MSU kids coming out of High School were comparably ranked to our kids. There's no reason at all why those kids look like a cohesive unit, and advanced to the elite 8, and ours don't and got clobbered in the first round of the NIT. Well there is one reason.

Great players play great. You can't teach the Kentucky freshman who made a 3 with a hand in his face as he faded away. By the same token, you couldn't say bad coaching was the reason Harrison got his three blocked in a similar situation. Our players are good, not great. Not saying that a better coach couldn't have gotten them executing better, but do you really think other than Jordan, that any of our kids have exhibited a high ceiling of sky's the limit or anything approaching that?

 

[1and1sju]

Kentucky started 5 freshman. Also watching the elite 8 this weekend got me thinking(not always a good thing) about the talent level of the kids on the 8 teams compared to our talent level. Of our main 8 players, 6 were 4 star recruits coming out of High School. One(Jordan) was a 5 star recruit and one(Sanchez) a JC AA.
From a High School ranking perspective, , that rivals any other team in the elite 8 with the exception of maybe Kentucky.

Yup.

But, with that talent in mind, it's shocking at times how far away we seem from these teams in certain respects, especially offensively. I had the chance to sit very close to the action Friday night, and with no rooting interest was just observing. The structure, discipline, and ball movement from these teams on offense is really what jumped out contrasted against our games.

While we lacked consistency in these departments (to our ultimate demise the last 2 weeks of the season), at our highest points this year I thought we competed defensively, on the backboards, and for 50/50 balls at the level those games were played Friday night.

But we are a world away offensively. Even in the stretches where the teams weren't scoring (largely do to the defensive intensity of the games), there was no dribbling east/west 30 feet from the basket, no out of control 1 on 1, no one pass and shot. They trusted their stuff and ran it consistently for all 40 minutes. They were executing what team offense looks like at the highest levels of Division 1 college basketball. We do not do that.

Those teams that played yesterday really move the ball. They have superior basketball talents that take and make tough shots. I don't think if you gave our players to Ollie or Calipari that the results are much better.

I respectfully + wholeheartedly disagree.

+1, also have to disagree here Beast. I am not saying that, collectively, MSU doesn't have more talent than we do. But the gap between talent is far less than the gap between the way the teams play on the floor, and that's the critical point.

And I think that ties back to perhaps the main point. When the MSU players were coming in, how much more talent did they have on paper than when the SJU players were coming in? That's where I really think you'll find very little gap between us and all but the very top few teams in the country (which perhaps makes MSU not the best example). The top coaches cultivate their players and those players get materially better over the course of their careers.

We have not had that kind of player development, at all. On a team full of players who had been with the program 2 and 3 years this past season, how many do you look at and say "that kid has gotten so much better since he was a freshman"? That, to me, is as big a problem as any we face under the current regime. These teams may have better players than us now - at least players playing better than ours now - but I don't know how much better they were coming in.

You give our players to Izzo for 12 months, put them in the bracket MSU was playing in, and I think that team is playing at the Garden this weekend also.

Ironic that you should mention MSU because they were one of the teams that I specifically looked at, and then looked up their players. As you said, those MSU kids coming out of High School were comparably ranked to our kids. There's no reason at all why those kids look like a cohesive unit, and advanced to the elite 8, and ours don't and got clobbered in the first round of the NIT. Well there is one reason.

Great players play great. You can't teach the Kentucky freshman who made a 3 with a hand in his face as he faded away. By the same token, you couldn't say bad coaching was the reason Harrison got his three blocked in a similar situation. Our players are good, not great. Not saying that a better coach couldn't have gotten them executing better, but do you really think other than Jordan, that any of our kids have exhibited a high ceiling of sky's the limit or anything approaching that?

No, our guys aren't more talented than Kentucky. Nobody is.
But its not about skys the limit potential. Its about executing today.
I think we were just as talented and experienced as Villanova and Wisconsin. And in a given situation, yes Dlo Harrison or Greene or Jordan could've hit that shot. But you have to play hard and efficient for 40mins to be in a situation to have that shot against a good opponent. That's where we, and our coaching, failed.
Lets be honest - Aaron Harrison probably only hits that shot 1 out of 5 tries. But he had the opportunity because his team was efficient, played good D all game long, and made the extra pass on several occasions. They didn't win on overwhelming talent alone. They didn't win bc they made better one on one moves. They executed better. They played a team game.

 

[alexd.]

UCONN fans must be doing something right. Lose Calhoun hire Ollie. Get to play at MSG in first NCAA games in fifty years.
On probation everyone stays.They are rejected by ACC but make the Final Four.
You can't make it up.

Roscoe Smith (UNLV) and Alex Oriakhi (Mizzou) transferred after the one year post season ban was announced. Smith lead the NCAA in rebounding at UNLV. Lamb and Drummond left for the NBA.

 

[MainMan]

I was just about to start yet another "Why can't we be like UConn?!?" thread (with emphasis on the second question mark).

But then I found this warm, cozy home for such ideas.

 

[monte]

Kentucky started 5 freshman. Also watching the elite 8 this weekend got me thinking(not always a good thing) about the talent level of the kids on the 8 teams compared to our talent level. Of our main 8 players, 6 were 4 star recruits coming out of High School. One(Jordan) was a 5 star recruit and one(Sanchez) a JC AA.
From a High School ranking perspective, , that rivals any other team in the elite 8 with the exception of maybe Kentucky.

Yup.

But, with that talent in mind, it's shocking at times how far away we seem from these teams in certain respects, especially offensively. I had the chance to sit very close to the action Friday night, and with no rooting interest was just observing. The structure, discipline, and ball movement from these teams on offense is really what jumped out contrasted against our games.

While we lacked consistency in these departments (to our ultimate demise the last 2 weeks of the season), at our highest points this year I thought we competed defensively, on the backboards, and for 50/50 balls at the level those games were played Friday night.

But we are a world away offensively. Even in the stretches where the teams weren't scoring (largely do to the defensive intensity of the games), there was no dribbling east/west 30 feet from the basket, no out of control 1 on 1, no one pass and shot. They trusted their stuff and ran it consistently for all 40 minutes. They were executing what team offense looks like at the highest levels of Division 1 college basketball. We do not do that.

Those teams that played yesterday really move the ball. They have superior basketball talents that take and make tough shots. I don't think if you gave our players to Ollie or Calipari that the results are much better.

I respectfully + wholeheartedly disagree.

+1, also have to disagree here Beast. I am not saying that, collectively, MSU doesn't have more talent than we do. But the gap between talent is far less than the gap between the way the teams play on the floor, and that's the critical point.

And I think that ties back to perhaps the main point. When the MSU players were coming in, how much more talent did they have on paper than when the SJU players were coming in? That's where I really think you'll find very little gap between us and all but the very top few teams in the country (which perhaps makes MSU not the best example). The top coaches cultivate their players and those players get materially better over the course of their careers.

We have not had that kind of player development, at all. On a team full of players who had been with the program 2 and 3 years this past season, how many do you look at and say "that kid has gotten so much better since he was a freshman"? That, to me, is as big a problem as any we face under the current regime. These teams may have better players than us now - at least players playing better than ours now - but I don't know how much better they were coming in.

You give our players to Izzo for 12 months, put them in the bracket MSU was playing in, and I think that team is playing at the Garden this weekend also.

Ironic that you should mention MSU because they were one of the teams that I specifically looked at, and then looked up their players. As you said, those MSU kids coming out of High School were comparably ranked to our kids. There's no reason at all why those kids look like a cohesive unit, and advanced to the elite 8, and ours don't and got clobbered in the first round of the NIT. Well there is one reason.

Great players play great. You can't teach the Kentucky freshman who made a 3 with a hand in his face as he faded away. By the same token, you couldn't say bad coaching was the reason Harrison got his three blocked in a similar situation. Our players are good, not great. Not saying that a better coach couldn't have gotten them executing better, but do you really think other than Jordan, that any of our kids have exhibited a high ceiling of sky's the limit or anything approaching that?

Beast do you think that Syracuse roster is filled with higher ranked kids than we have? I haven't check but I'm guessing not. I know that Michigan State's kids weren't any higher ranked. Nor are UCONN's. There's very little difference between the talent level that Lavin has brought in and that of many of the other top tier schools. Kentucky is the exception. However Cal still managed to get his team to the final 4 with a bunch of Freshman leading the way. Several of whom may be one and done. Look at Napier for example. Not a great player(although he's been playing like one), just a solid 4 year kid who's gotten better every year. He was ranked 98 on rivals coming out of High School and 4 years later, in his senior year, he's lead UCONN to the final 4. That's what should be going on here but it is not.

 

[SJU1512]

Kentucky started 5 freshman. Also watching the elite 8 this weekend got me thinking(not always a good thing) about the talent level of the kids on the 8 teams compared to our talent level. Of our main 8 players, 6 were 4 star recruits coming out of High School. One(Jordan) was a 5 star recruit and one(Sanchez) a JC AA.
From a High School ranking perspective, , that rivals any other team in the elite 8 with the exception of maybe Kentucky.

Yup.

But, with that talent in mind, it's shocking at times how far away we seem from these teams in certain respects, especially offensively. I had the chance to sit very close to the action Friday night, and with no rooting interest was just observing. The structure, discipline, and ball movement from these teams on offense is really what jumped out contrasted against our games.

While we lacked consistency in these departments (to our ultimate demise the last 2 weeks of the season), at our highest points this year I thought we competed defensively, on the backboards, and for 50/50 balls at the level those games were played Friday night.

But we are a world away offensively. Even in the stretches where the teams weren't scoring (largely do to the defensive intensity of the games), there was no dribbling east/west 30 feet from the basket, no out of control 1 on 1, no one pass and shot. They trusted their stuff and ran it consistently for all 40 minutes. They were executing what team offense looks like at the highest levels of Division 1 college basketball. We do not do that.

Those teams that played yesterday really move the ball. They have superior basketball talents that take and make tough shots. I don't think if you gave our players to Ollie or Calipari that the results are much better.

I respectfully + wholeheartedly disagree.

+1, also have to disagree here Beast. I am not saying that, collectively, MSU doesn't have more talent than we do. But the gap between talent is far less than the gap between the way the teams play on the floor, and that's the critical point.

And I think that ties back to perhaps the main point. When the MSU players were coming in, how much more talent did they have on paper than when the SJU players were coming in? That's where I really think you'll find very little gap between us and all but the very top few teams in the country (which perhaps makes MSU not the best example). The top coaches cultivate their players and those players get materially better over the course of their careers.

We have not had that kind of player development, at all. On a team full of players who had been with the program 2 and 3 years this past season, how many do you look at and say "that kid has gotten so much better since he was a freshman"? That, to me, is as big a problem as any we face under the current regime. These teams may have better players than us now - at least players playing better than ours now - but I don't know how much better they were coming in.

You give our players to Izzo for 12 months, put them in the bracket MSU was playing in, and I think that team is playing at the Garden this weekend also.

Ironic that you should mention MSU because they were one of the teams that I specifically looked at, and then looked up their players. As you said, those MSU kids coming out of High School were comparably ranked to our kids. There's no reason at all why those kids look like a cohesive unit, and advanced to the elite 8, and ours don't and got clobbered in the first round of the NIT. Well there is one reason.

In additional to team and player skill development, you also have physical development. The upperclassmen on UVA and MSU are specimens. We have some really impressive athletes but I don't know how many kids we've had over the last 3 years really transform their bodies. Harrison has. Obekpa seems well on his way. Christian Jones is already there. But there is really another level out there with guys like Branden Dawson, Akil Mitchell, and Justin Anderson.

 

[monte]

Kentucky started 5 freshman. Also watching the elite 8 this weekend got me thinking(not always a good thing) about the talent level of the kids on the 8 teams compared to our talent level. Of our main 8 players, 6 were 4 star recruits coming out of High School. One(Jordan) was a 5 star recruit and one(Sanchez) a JC AA.
From a High School ranking perspective, , that rivals any other team in the elite 8 with the exception of maybe Kentucky.

Yup.

But, with that talent in mind, it's shocking at times how far away we seem from these teams in certain respects, especially offensively. I had the chance to sit very close to the action Friday night, and with no rooting interest was just observing. The structure, discipline, and ball movement from these teams on offense is really what jumped out contrasted against our games.

GG?

While we lacked consistency in these departments (to our ultimate demise the last 2 weeks of the season), at our highest points this year I thought we competed defensively, on the backboards, and for 50/50 balls at the level those games were played Friday night.

But we are a world away offensively. Even in the stretches where the teams weren't scoring (largely do to the defensive intensity of the games), there was no dribbling east/west 30 feet from the basket, no out of control 1 on 1, no one pass and shot. They trusted their stuff and ran it consistently for all 40 minutes. They were executing what team offense looks like at the highest levels of Division 1 college basketball. We do not do that.

Those teams that played yesterday really move the ball. They have superior basketball talents that take and make tough shots. I don't think if you gave our players to Ollie or Calipari that the results are much better.

I respectfully + wholeheartedly disagree.

+1, also have to disagree here Beast. I am not saying that, collectively, MSU doesn't have more talent than we do. But the gap between talent is far less than the gap between the way the teams play on the floor, and that's the critical point.

And I think that ties back to perhaps the main point. When the MSU players were coming in, how much more talent did they have on paper than when the SJU players were coming in? That's where I really think you'll find very little gap between us and all but the very top few teams in the country (which perhaps makes MSU not the best example). The top coaches cultivate their players and those players get materially better over the course of their careers.

We have not had that kind of player development, at all. On a team full of players who had been with the program 2 and 3 years this past season, how many do you look at and say "that kid has gotten so much better since he was a freshman"? That, to me, is as big a problem as any we face under the current regime. These teams may have better players than us now - at least players playing better than ours now - but I don't know how much better they were coming in.

You give our players to Izzo for 12 months, put them in the bracket MSU was playing in, and I think that team is playing at the Garden this weekend also.

Ironic that you should mention MSU because they were one of the teams that I specifically looked at, and then looked up their players. As you said, those MSU kids coming out of High School were comparably ranked to our kids. There's no reason at all why those kids look like a cohesive unit, and advanced to the elite 8, and ours don't and got clobbered in the first round of the NIT. Well there is one reason.

In additional to team and player skill development, you also have physical development. The upperclassmen on UVA and MSU are specimens. We have some really impressive athletes but I don't know how many kids we've had over the last 3 years really transform their bodies. Harrison has. Obekpa seems well on his way. Christian Jones is already there. But there is really another level out there with guys like Branden Dawson, Akil Mitchell, and Justin Anderson.

 

[monte]

Kentucky started 5 freshman. Also watching the elite 8 this weekend got me thinking(not always a good thing) about the talent level of the kids on the 8 teams compared to our talent level. Of our main 8 players, 6 were 4 star recruits coming out of High School. One(Jordan) was a 5 star recruit and one(Sanchez) a JC AA.
From a High School ranking perspective, , that rivals any other team in the elite 8 with the exception of maybe Kentucky.

Yup.

But, with that talent in mind, it's shocking at times how far away we seem from these teams in certain respects, especially offensively. I had the chance to sit very close to the action Friday night, and with no rooting interest was just observing. The structure, discipline, and ball movement from these teams on offense is really what jumped out contrasted against our games.

GG?

While we lacked consistency in these departments (to our ultimate demise the last 2 weeks of the season), at our highest points this year I thought we competed defensively, on the backboards, and for 50/50 balls at the level those games were played Friday night.

But we are a world away offensively. Even in the stretches where the teams weren't scoring (largely do to the defensive intensity of the games), there was no dribbling east/west 30 feet from the basket, no out of control 1 on 1, no one pass and shot. They trusted their stuff and ran it consistently for all 40 minutes. They were executing what team offense looks like at the highest levels of Division 1 college basketball. We do not do that.

Those teams that played yesterday really move the ball. They have superior basketball talents that take and make tough shots. I don't think if you gave our players to Ollie or Calipari that the results are much better.

I respectfully + wholeheartedly disagree.

+1, also have to disagree here Beast. I am not saying that, collectively, MSU doesn't have more talent than we do. But the gap between talent is far less than the gap between the way the teams play on the floor, and that's the critical point.

And I think that ties back to perhaps the main point. When the MSU players were coming in, how much more talent did they have on paper than when the SJU players were coming in? That's where I really think you'll find very little gap between us and all but the very top few teams in the country (which perhaps makes MSU not the best example). The top coaches cultivate their players and those players get materially better over the course of their careers.

We have not had that kind of player development, at all. On a team full of players who had been with the program 2 and 3 years this past season, how many do you look at and say "that kid has gotten so much better since he was a freshman"? That, to me, is as big a problem as any we face under the current regime. These teams may have better players than us now - at least players playing better than ours now - but I don't know how much better they were coming in.

You give our players to Izzo for 12 months, put them in the bracket MSU was playing in, and I think that team is playing at the Garden this weekend also.

Ironic that you should mention MSU because they were one of the teams that I specifically looked at, and then looked up their players. As you said, those MSU kids coming out of High School were comparably ranked to our kids. There's no reason at all why those kids look like a cohesive unit, and advanced to the elite 8, and ours don't and got clobbered in the first round of the NIT. Well there is one reason.

In additional to team and player skill development, you also have physical development. The upperclassmen on UVA and MSU are specimens. We have some really impressive athletes but I don't know how many kids we've had over the last 3 years really transform their bodies. Harrison has. Obekpa seems well on his way. Christian Jones is already there. But there is really another level out there with guys like Branden Dawson, Akil Mitchell, and Justin Anderson.

GG?

 

[SJU1512]

Kentucky started 5 freshman. Also watching the elite 8 this weekend got me thinking(not always a good thing) about the talent level of the kids on the 8 teams compared to our talent level. Of our main 8 players, 6 were 4 star recruits coming out of High School. One(Jordan) was a 5 star recruit and one(Sanchez) a JC AA.
From a High School ranking perspective, , that rivals any other team in the elite 8 with the exception of maybe Kentucky.

Yup.

But, with that talent in mind, it's shocking at times how far away we seem from these teams in certain respects, especially offensively. I had the chance to sit very close to the action Friday night, and with no rooting interest was just observing. The structure, discipline, and ball movement from these teams on offense is really what jumped out contrasted against our games.

GG?

While we lacked consistency in these departments (to our ultimate demise the last 2 weeks of the season), at our highest points this year I thought we competed defensively, on the backboards, and for 50/50 balls at the level those games were played Friday night.

But we are a world away offensively. Even in the stretches where the teams weren't scoring (largely do to the defensive intensity of the games), there was no dribbling east/west 30 feet from the basket, no out of control 1 on 1, no one pass and shot. They trusted their stuff and ran it consistently for all 40 minutes. They were executing what team offense looks like at the highest levels of Division 1 college basketball. We do not do that.

Those teams that played yesterday really move the ball. They have superior basketball talents that take and make tough shots. I don't think if you gave our players to Ollie or Calipari that the results are much better.

I respectfully + wholeheartedly disagree.

+1, also have to disagree here Beast. I am not saying that, collectively, MSU doesn't have more talent than we do. But the gap between talent is far less than the gap between the way the teams play on the floor, and that's the critical point.

And I think that ties back to perhaps the main point. When the MSU players were coming in, how much more talent did they have on paper than when the SJU players were coming in? That's where I really think you'll find very little gap between us and all but the very top few teams in the country (which perhaps makes MSU not the best example). The top coaches cultivate their players and those players get materially better over the course of their careers.

We have not had that kind of player development, at all. On a team full of players who had been with the program 2 and 3 years this past season, how many do you look at and say "that kid has gotten so much better since he was a freshman"? That, to me, is as big a problem as any we face under the current regime. These teams may have better players than us now - at least players playing better than ours now - but I don't know how much better they were coming in.

You give our players to Izzo for 12 months, put them in the bracket MSU was playing in, and I think that team is playing at the Garden this weekend also.

Ironic that you should mention MSU because they were one of the teams that I specifically looked at, and then looked up their players. As you said, those MSU kids coming out of High School were comparably ranked to our kids. There's no reason at all why those kids look like a cohesive unit, and advanced to the elite 8, and ours don't and got clobbered in the first round of the NIT. Well there is one reason.

In additional to team and player skill development, you also have physical development. The upperclassmen on UVA and MSU are specimens. We have some really impressive athletes but I don't know how many kids we've had over the last 3 years really transform their bodies. Harrison has. Obekpa seems well on his way. Christian Jones is already there. But there is really another level out there with guys like Branden Dawson, Akil Mitchell, and Justin Anderson.

GG?

Think he was another guy that was already there physically upon coming in. And maybe that's part of it, since we've had a lot of turnover the last few years we've had guys come in at more advanced stages in their careers who have already made the physical jump. It just seems like our long/wirey freshman stay long and wirey instead of adding significant muscle.

That said Branch is a guy I'd throw into the improvement category. He seemed to get stronger from last year to this season.

 

[beast of the east]

Kentucky started 5 freshman. Also watching the elite 8 this weekend got me thinking(not always a good thing) about the talent level of the kids on the 8 teams compared to our talent level. Of our main 8 players, 6 were 4 star recruits coming out of High School. One(Jordan) was a 5 star recruit and one(Sanchez) a JC AA.
From a High School ranking perspective, , that rivals any other team in the elite 8 with the exception of maybe Kentucky.

Yup.

But, with that talent in mind, it's shocking at times how far away we seem from these teams in certain respects, especially offensively. I had the chance to sit very close to the action Friday night, and with no rooting interest was just observing. The structure, discipline, and ball movement from these teams on offense is really what jumped out contrasted against our games.

While we lacked consistency in these departments (to our ultimate demise the last 2 weeks of the season), at our highest points this year I thought we competed defensively, on the backboards, and for 50/50 balls at the level those games were played Friday night.

But we are a world away offensively. Even in the stretches where the teams weren't scoring (largely do to the defensive intensity of the games), there was no dribbling east/west 30 feet from the basket, no out of control 1 on 1, no one pass and shot. They trusted their stuff and ran it consistently for all 40 minutes. They were executing what team offense looks like at the highest levels of Division 1 college basketball. We do not do that.

Those teams that played yesterday really move the ball. They have superior basketball talents that take and make tough shots. I don't think if you gave our players to Ollie or Calipari that the results are much better.

I respectfully + wholeheartedly disagree.

+1, also have to disagree here Beast. I am not saying that, collectively, MSU doesn't have more talent than we do. But the gap between talent is far less than the gap between the way the teams play on the floor, and that's the critical point.

And I think that ties back to perhaps the main point. When the MSU players were coming in, how much more talent did they have on paper than when the SJU players were coming in? That's where I really think you'll find very little gap between us and all but the very top few teams in the country (which perhaps makes MSU not the best example). The top coaches cultivate their players and those players get materially better over the course of their careers.

We have not had that kind of player development, at all. On a team full of players who had been with the program 2 and 3 years this past season, how many do you look at and say "that kid has gotten so much better since he was a freshman"? That, to me, is as big a problem as any we face under the current regime. These teams may have better players than us now - at least players playing better than ours now - but I don't know how much better they were coming in.

You give our players to Izzo for 12 months, put them in the bracket MSU was playing in, and I think that team is playing at the Garden this weekend also.

Ironic that you should mention MSU because they were one of the teams that I specifically looked at, and then looked up their players. As you said, those MSU kids coming out of High School were comparably ranked to our kids. There's no reason at all why those kids look like a cohesive unit, and advanced to the elite 8, and ours don't and got clobbered in the first round of the NIT. Well there is one reason.

Great players play great. You can't teach the Kentucky freshman who made a 3 with a hand in his face as he faded away. By the same token, you couldn't say bad coaching was the reason Harrison got his three blocked in a similar situation. Our players are good, not great. Not saying that a better coach couldn't have gotten them executing better, but do you really think other than Jordan, that any of our kids have exhibited a high ceiling of sky's the limit or anything approaching that?

No, our guys aren't more talented than Kentucky. Nobody is.
But its not about skys the limit potential. Its about executing today.
I think we were just as talented and experienced as Villanova and Wisconsin. And in a given situation, yes Dlo Harrison or Greene or Jordan could've hit that shot. But you have to play hard and efficient for 40mins to be in a situation to have that shot against a good opponent. That's where we, and our coaching, failed.
Lets be honest - Aaron Harrison probably only hits that shot 1 out of 5 tries. But he had the opportunity because his team was efficient, played good D all game long, and made the extra pass on several occasions. They didn't win on overwhelming talent alone. They didn't win bc they made better one on one moves. They executed better. They played a team game.

It's funny, but I've watched NCAA tourney games, where one team didn't lose, the other team just won. You get the sense that if the losing team had one more crack they'd have executed well and scored. In those games, even the loser doesn't have to hang their heads - they played like warriors. Our games seemed to always come down to an unraveling on our part, where we failed to do the things you needed to do in order to win. All in all, we ended up where we deserved to. Pin the blame on Lavin or the lack of talent, but I come away thinking our very deep team wasn't all that talented. this is why nearly every player - Greene - Sanchez, Branch, Obekpa, POINTER, Harrison, etc, has been rightfully scorched on this board this season.

 

[redfazed]

Kentucky started 5 freshman. Also watching the elite 8 this weekend got me thinking(not always a good thing) about the talent level of the kids on the 8 teams compared to our talent level. Of our main 8 players, 6 were 4 star recruits coming out of High School. One(Jordan) was a 5 star recruit and one(Sanchez) a JC AA.
From a High School ranking perspective, , that rivals any other team in the elite 8 with the exception of maybe Kentucky.

Yup.

But, with that talent in mind, it's shocking at times how far away we seem from these teams in certain respects, especially offensively. I had the chance to sit very close to the action Friday night, and with no rooting interest was just observing. The structure, discipline, and ball movement from these teams on offense is really what jumped out contrasted against our games.

While we lacked consistency in these departments (to our ultimate demise the last 2 weeks of the season), at our highest points this year I thought we competed defensively, on the backboards, and for 50/50 balls at the level those games were played Friday night.

But we are a world away offensively. Even in the stretches where the teams weren't scoring (largely do to the defensive intensity of the games), there was no dribbling east/west 30 feet from the basket, no out of control 1 on 1, no one pass and shot. They trusted their stuff and ran it consistently for all 40 minutes. They were executing what team offense looks like at the highest levels of Division 1 college basketball. We do not do that.

Those teams that played yesterday really move the ball. They have superior basketball talents that take and make tough shots. I don't think if you gave our players to Ollie or Calipari that the results are much better.

I respectfully + wholeheartedly disagree.

+1, also have to disagree here Beast. I am not saying that, collectively, MSU doesn't have more talent than we do. But the gap between talent is far less than the gap between the way the teams play on the floor, and that's the critical point.

And I think that ties back to perhaps the main point. When the MSU players were coming in, how much more talent did they have on paper than when the SJU players were coming in? That's where I really think you'll find very little gap between us and all but the very top few teams in the country (which perhaps makes MSU not the best example). The top coaches cultivate their players and those players get materially better over the course of their careers.

We have not had that kind of player development, at all. On a team full of players who had been with the program 2 and 3 years this past season, how many do you look at and say "that kid has gotten so much better since he was a freshman"? That, to me, is as big a problem as any we face under the current regime. These teams may have better players than us now - at least players playing better than ours now - but I don't know how much better they were coming in.

You give our players to Izzo for 12 months, put them in the bracket MSU was playing in, and I think that team is playing at the Garden this weekend also.

Ironic that you should mention MSU because they were one of the teams that I specifically looked at, and then looked up their players. As you said, those MSU kids coming out of High School were comparably ranked to our kids. There's no reason at all why those kids look like a cohesive unit, and advanced to the elite 8, and ours don't and got clobbered in the first round of the NIT. Well there is one reason.

Great players play great. You can't teach the Kentucky freshman who made a 3 with a hand in his face as he faded away. By the same token, you couldn't say bad coaching was the reason Harrison got his three blocked in a similar situation. Our players are good, not great. Not saying that a better coach couldn't have gotten them executing better, but do you really think other than Jordan, that any of our kids have exhibited a high ceiling of sky's the limit or anything approaching that?

No, our guys aren't more talented than Kentucky. Nobody is.
But its not about skys the limit potential. Its about executing today.
I think we were just as talented and experienced as Villanova and Wisconsin. And in a given situation, yes Dlo Harrison or Greene or Jordan could've hit that shot. But you have to play hard and efficient for 40mins to be in a situation to have that shot against a good opponent. That's where we, and our coaching, failed.
Lets be honest - Aaron Harrison probably only hits that shot 1 out of 5 tries. But he had the opportunity because his team was efficient, played good D all game long, and made the extra pass on several occasions. They didn't win on overwhelming talent alone. They didn't win bc they made better one on one moves. They executed better. They played a team game.

It's funny, but I've watched NCAA tourney games, where one team didn't lose, the other team just won. You get the sense that if the losing team had one more crack they'd have executed well and scored. In those games, even the loser doesn't have to hang their heads - they played like warriors. Our games seemed to always come down to an unraveling on our part, where we failed to do the things you needed to do in order to win. All in all, we ended up where we deserved to. Pin the blame on Lavin or the lack of talent, but I come away thinking our very deep team wasn't all that talented. this is why nearly every player - Greene - Sanchez, Branch, Obekpa, POINTER, Harrison, etc, has been rightfully scorched on this board this season.

Respect your opinion, but I just don’t buy into the “we’re not that talented” argument.

I think Jay Wright is in a pretty good position to judge talent. And here is what he said about SJU’s talent -- this was 4 games into Big East conference play:

“Q:
Other than your team, which Big East team has the most talent?

Jay Wright:
Talent wise, I'd say Creighton, St. John's, Xavier, Georgetown.”

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/49813/villanova-jay-wright

G’town was a disappointment. But one of their starters (Smith) wound up suspended for almost the entire BE season and another starter (Trawick) missed 5 conference games due to injury.

What was our excuse?

 

[Section3]

Kentucky started 5 freshman. Also watching the elite 8 this weekend got me thinking(not always a good thing) about the talent level of the kids on the 8 teams compared to our talent level. Of our main 8 players, 6 were 4 star recruits coming out of High School. One(Jordan) was a 5 star recruit and one(Sanchez) a JC AA.
From a High School ranking perspective, , that rivals any other team in the elite 8 with the exception of maybe Kentucky.

Yup.

But, with that talent in mind, it's shocking at times how far away we seem from these teams in certain respects, especially offensively. I had the chance to sit very close to the action Friday night, and with no rooting interest was just observing. The structure, discipline, and ball movement from these teams on offense is really what jumped out contrasted against our games.

While we lacked consistency in these departments (to our ultimate demise the last 2 weeks of the season), at our highest points this year I thought we competed defensively, on the backboards, and for 50/50 balls at the level those games were played Friday night.

But we are a world away offensively. Even in the stretches where the teams weren't scoring (largely do to the defensive intensity of the games), there was no dribbling east/west 30 feet from the basket, no out of control 1 on 1, no one pass and shot. They trusted their stuff and ran it consistently for all 40 minutes. They were executing what team offense looks like at the highest levels of Division 1 college basketball. We do not do that.

Those teams that played yesterday really move the ball. They have superior basketball talents that take and make tough shots. I don't think if you gave our players to Ollie or Calipari that the results are much better.

I respectfully + wholeheartedly disagree.

+1, also have to disagree here Beast. I am not saying that, collectively, MSU doesn't have more talent than we do. But the gap between talent is far less than the gap between the way the teams play on the floor, and that's the critical point.

And I think that ties back to perhaps the main point. When the MSU players were coming in, how much more talent did they have on paper than when the SJU players were coming in? That's where I really think you'll find very little gap between us and all but the very top few teams in the country (which perhaps makes MSU not the best example). The top coaches cultivate their players and those players get materially better over the course of their careers.

We have not had that kind of player development, at all. On a team full of players who had been with the program 2 and 3 years this past season, how many do you look at and say "that kid has gotten so much better since he was a freshman"? That, to me, is as big a problem as any we face under the current regime. These teams may have better players than us now - at least players playing better than ours now - but I don't know how much better they were coming in.

You give our players to Izzo for 12 months, put them in the bracket MSU was playing in, and I think that team is playing at the Garden this weekend also.

Ironic that you should mention MSU because they were one of the teams that I specifically looked at, and then looked up their players. As you said, those MSU kids coming out of High School were comparably ranked to our kids. There's no reason at all why those kids look like a cohesive unit, and advanced to the elite 8, and ours don't and got clobbered in the first round of the NIT. Well there is one reason.

Great players play great. You can't teach the Kentucky freshman who made a 3 with a hand in his face as he faded away. By the same token, you couldn't say bad coaching was the reason Harrison got his three blocked in a similar situation. Our players are good, not great. Not saying that a better coach couldn't have gotten them executing better, but do you really think other than Jordan, that any of our kids have exhibited a high ceiling of sky's the limit or anything approaching that?

No, our guys aren't more talented than Kentucky. Nobody is.
But its not about skys the limit potential. Its about executing today.
I think we were just as talented and experienced as Villanova and Wisconsin. And in a given situation, yes Dlo Harrison or Greene or Jordan could've hit that shot. But you have to play hard and efficient for 40mins to be in a situation to have that shot against a good opponent. That's where we, and our coaching, failed.
Lets be honest - Aaron Harrison probably only hits that shot 1 out of 5 tries. But he had the opportunity because his team was efficient, played good D all game long, and made the extra pass on several occasions. They didn't win on overwhelming talent alone. They didn't win bc they made better one on one moves. They executed better. They played a team game.

Agree Desco...I believe that we were right there with Nova and Creighton...may not be saying much given the NCAA results but we absolutely should have been competing for the BE championship and made the tourney...we never mastered the art of playing 40 minutes

 

[Class of 72]

Kentucky started 5 freshman. Also watching the elite 8 this weekend got me thinking(not always a good thing) about the talent level of the kids on the 8 teams compared to our talent level. Of our main 8 players, 6 were 4 star recruits coming out of High School. One(Jordan) was a 5 star recruit and one(Sanchez) a JC AA.
From a High School ranking perspective, , that rivals any other team in the elite 8 with the exception of maybe Kentucky.

Yup.

But, with that talent in mind, it's shocking at times how far away we seem from these teams in certain respects, especially offensively. I had the chance to sit very close to the action Friday night, and with no rooting interest was just observing. The structure, discipline, and ball movement from these teams on offense is really what jumped out contrasted against our games.

While we lacked consistency in these departments (to our ultimate demise the last 2 weeks of the season), at our highest points this year I thought we competed defensively, on the backboards, and for 50/50 balls at the level those games were played Friday night.

But we are a world away offensively. Even in the stretches where the teams weren't scoring (largely do to the defensive intensity of the games), there was no dribbling east/west 30 feet from the basket, no out of control 1 on 1, no one pass and shot. They trusted their stuff and ran it consistently for all 40 minutes. They were executing what team offense looks like at the highest levels of Division 1 college basketball. We do not do that.

Those teams that played yesterday really move the ball. They have superior basketball talents that take and make tough shots. I don't think if you gave our players to Ollie or Calipari that the results are much better.

I respectfully + wholeheartedly disagree.

+1, also have to disagree here Beast. I am not saying that, collectively, MSU doesn't have more talent than we do. But the gap between talent is far less than the gap between the way the teams play on the floor, and that's the critical point.

And I think that ties back to perhaps the main point. When the MSU players were coming in, how much more talent did they have on paper than when the SJU players were coming in? That's where I really think you'll find very little gap between us and all but the very top few teams in the country (which perhaps makes MSU not the best example). The top coaches cultivate their players and those players get materially better over the course of their careers.

We have not had that kind of player development, at all. On a team full of players who had been with the program 2 and 3 years this past season, how many do you look at and say "that kid has gotten so much better since he was a freshman"? That, to me, is as big a problem as any we face under the current regime. These teams may have better players than us now - at least players playing better than ours now - but I don't know how much better they were coming in.

You give our players to Izzo for 12 months, put them in the bracket MSU was playing in, and I think that team is playing at the Garden this weekend also.

Ironic that you should mention MSU because they were one of the teams that I specifically looked at, and then looked up their players. As you said, those MSU kids coming out of High School were comparably ranked to our kids. There's no reason at all why those kids look like a cohesive unit, and advanced to the elite 8, and ours don't and got clobbered in the first round of the NIT. Well there is one reason.

Great players play great. You can't teach the Kentucky freshman who made a 3 with a hand in his face as he faded away. By the same token, you couldn't say bad coaching was the reason Harrison got his three blocked in a similar situation. Our players are good, not great. Not saying that a better coach couldn't have gotten them executing better, but do you really think other than Jordan, that any of our kids have exhibited a high ceiling of sky's the limit or anything approaching that?

No, our guys aren't more talented than Kentucky. Nobody is.
But its not about skys the limit potential. Its about executing today.
I think we were just as talented and experienced as Villanova and Wisconsin. And in a given situation, yes Dlo Harrison or Greene or Jordan could've hit that shot. But you have to play hard and efficient for 40mins to be in a situation to have that shot against a good opponent. That's where we, and our coaching, failed.
Lets be honest - Aaron Harrison probably only hits that shot 1 out of 5 tries. But he had the opportunity because his team was efficient, played good D all game long, and made the extra pass on several occasions. They didn't win on overwhelming talent alone. They didn't win bc they made better one on one moves. They executed better. They played a team game.

Agree Desco...I believe that we were right there with Nova and Creighton...may not be saying much given the NCAA results but we absolutely should have been competing for the BE championship and made the tourney...we never mastered the art of playing 40 minutes

Lavin and the coaches rarely had the team ready from jump ball. Slow starts, lousy defense, poorly designed offensive sets, constantly changing starting lineups were all our trademarks. The starters named for the key Georgetown away game was the season low point for Lavin strategy and coaching. That is when I realized we would never be an NCAA tourney team and that there were serious internal issues. Primo and Jakarr were obviously just auditioning for the NBA and were not part of any team oriented offense. That Jakarr kept his starting job while Primo lost his was only because Obekpa was not an offensive player. None of these players played 40 minutes of basketball. All of them were Lavin recruits. I doubt any future recruits will be any different.

 

[stjohnnie75]

Kentucky started 5 freshman. Also watching the elite 8 this weekend got me thinking(not always a good thing) about the talent level of the kids on the 8 teams compared to our talent level. Of our main 8 players, 6 were 4 star recruits coming out of High School. One(Jordan) was a 5 star recruit and one(Sanchez) a JC AA.
From a High School ranking perspective, , that rivals any other team in the elite 8 with the exception of maybe Kentucky.

Yup.

But, with that talent in mind, it's shocking at times how far away we seem from these teams in certain respects, especially offensively. I had the chance to sit very close to the action Friday night, and with no rooting interest was just observing. The structure, discipline, and ball movement from these teams on offense is really what jumped out contrasted against our games.

While we lacked consistency in these departments (to our ultimate demise the last 2 weeks of the season), at our highest points this year I thought we competed defensively, on the backboards, and for 50/50 balls at the level those games were played Friday night.

But we are a world away offensively. Even in the stretches where the teams weren't scoring (largely do to the defensive intensity of the games), there was no dribbling east/west 30 feet from the basket, no out of control 1 on 1, no one pass and shot. They trusted their stuff and ran it consistently for all 40 minutes. They were executing what team offense looks like at the highest levels of Division 1 college basketball. We do not do that.

Those teams that played yesterday really move the ball. They have superior basketball talents that take and make tough shots. I don't think if you gave our players to Ollie or Calipari that the results are much better.

I respectfully + wholeheartedly disagree.

+1, also have to disagree here Beast. I am not saying that, collectively, MSU doesn't have more talent than we do. But the gap between talent is far less than the gap between the way the teams play on the floor, and that's the critical point.

And I think that ties back to perhaps the main point. When the MSU players were coming in, how much more talent did they have on paper than when the SJU players were coming in? That's where I really think you'll find very little gap between us and all but the very top few teams in the country (which perhaps makes MSU not the best example). The top coaches cultivate their players and those players get materially better over the course of their careers.

We have not had that kind of player development, at all. On a team full of players who had been with the program 2 and 3 years this past season, how many do you look at and say "that kid has gotten so much better since he was a freshman"? That, to me, is as big a problem as any we face under the current regime. These teams may have better players than us now - at least players playing better than ours now - but I don't know how much better they were coming in.

You give our players to Izzo for 12 months, put them in the bracket MSU was playing in, and I think that team is playing at the Garden this weekend also.

Ironic that you should mention MSU because they were one of the teams that I specifically looked at, and then looked up their players. As you said, those MSU kids coming out of High School were comparably ranked to our kids. There's no reason at all why those kids look like a cohesive unit, and advanced to the elite 8, and ours don't and got clobbered in the first round of the NIT. Well there is one reason.

Great players play great. You can't teach the Kentucky freshman who made a 3 with a hand in his face as he faded away. By the same token, you couldn't say bad coaching was the reason Harrison got his three blocked in a similar situation. Our players are good, not great. Not saying that a better coach couldn't have gotten them executing better, but do you really think other than Jordan, that any of our kids have exhibited a high ceiling of sky's the limit or anything approaching that?

No, our guys aren't more talented than Kentucky. Nobody is.
But its not about skys the limit potential. Its about executing today.
I think we were just as talented and experienced as Villanova and Wisconsin. And in a given situation, yes Dlo Harrison or Greene or Jordan could've hit that shot. But you have to play hard and efficient for 40mins to be in a situation to have that shot against a good opponent. That's where we, and our coaching, failed.
Lets be honest - Aaron Harrison probably only hits that shot 1 out of 5 tries. But he had the opportunity because his team was efficient, played good D all game long, and made the extra pass on several occasions. They didn't win on overwhelming talent alone. They didn't win bc they made better one on one moves. They executed better. They played a team game.

It's funny, but I've watched NCAA tourney games, where one team didn't lose, the other team just won. You get the sense that if the losing team had one more crack they'd have executed well and scored. In those games, even the loser doesn't have to hang their heads - they played like warriors. Our games seemed to always come down to an unraveling on our part, where we failed to do the things you needed to do in order to win. All in all, we ended up where we deserved to. Pin the blame on Lavin or the lack of talent, but I come away thinking our very deep team wasn't all that talented. this is why nearly every player - Greene - Sanchez, Branch, Obekpa, POINTER, Harrison, etc, has been rightfully scorched on this board this season.

Respect your opinion, but I just don’t buy into the “we’re not that talented” argument.

I think Jay Wright is in a pretty good position to judge talent. And here is what he said about SJU’s talent -- this was 4 games into Big East conference play:

“Q:
Other than your team, which Big East team has the most talent?

Jay Wright:
Talent wise, I'd say Creighton, St. John's, Xavier, Georgetown.”

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/49813/villanova-jay-wright

G’town was a disappointment. But one of their starters (Smith) wound up suspended for almost the entire BE season and another starter (Trawick) missed 5 conference games due to injury.

What was our excuse?

So Jay is asked to name a team that has the most talent and he names half the league. Coach speak.

Besides the head coach, this team is missing heart.

 

[Red.Fans]

Besides the head coach, this team is missing heart.

+1

 

[SJUISBACK]

Kentucky started 5 freshman. Also watching the elite 8 this weekend got me thinking(not always a good thing) about the talent level of the kids on the 8 teams compared to our talent level. Of our main 8 players, 6 were 4 star recruits coming out of High School. One(Jordan) was a 5 star recruit and one(Sanchez) a JC AA.
From a High School ranking perspective, , that rivals any other team in the elite 8 with the exception of maybe Kentucky.

Yup.

But, with that talent in mind, it's shocking at times how far away we seem from these teams in certain respects, especially offensively. I had the chance to sit very close to the action Friday night, and with no rooting interest was just observing. The structure, discipline, and ball movement from these teams on offense is really what jumped out contrasted against our games.

While we lacked consistency in these departments (to our ultimate demise the last 2 weeks of the season), at our highest points this year I thought we competed defensively, on the backboards, and for 50/50 balls at the level those games were played Friday night.

But we are a world away offensively. Even in the stretches where the teams weren't scoring (largely do to the defensive intensity of the games), there was no dribbling east/west 30 feet from the basket, no out of control 1 on 1, no one pass and shot. They trusted their stuff and ran it consistently for all 40 minutes. They were executing what team offense looks like at the highest levels of Division 1 college basketball. We do not do that.

Those teams that played yesterday really move the ball. They have superior basketball talents that take and make tough shots. I don't think if you gave our players to Ollie or Calipari that the results are much better.

I respectfully + wholeheartedly disagree.

+1, also have to disagree here Beast. I am not saying that, collectively, MSU doesn't have more talent than we do. But the gap between talent is far less than the gap between the way the teams play on the floor, and that's the critical point.

And I think that ties back to perhaps the main point. When the MSU players were coming in, how much more talent did they have on paper than when the SJU players were coming in? That's where I really think you'll find very little gap between us and all but the very top few teams in the country (which perhaps makes MSU not the best example). The top coaches cultivate their players and those players get materially better over the course of their careers.

We have not had that kind of player development, at all. On a team full of players who had been with the program 2 and 3 years this past season, how many do you look at and say "that kid has gotten so much better since he was a freshman"? That, to me, is as big a problem as any we face under the current regime. These teams may have better players than us now - at least players playing better than ours now - but I don't know how much better they were coming in.

You give our players to Izzo for 12 months, put them in the bracket MSU was playing in, and I think that team is playing at the Garden this weekend also.

Ironic that you should mention MSU because they were one of the teams that I specifically looked at, and then looked up their players. As you said, those MSU kids coming out of High School were comparably ranked to our kids. There's no reason at all why those kids look like a cohesive unit, and advanced to the elite 8, and ours don't and got clobbered in the first round of the NIT. Well there is one reason.

Great players play great. You can't teach the Kentucky freshman who made a 3 with a hand in his face as he faded away. By the same token, you couldn't say bad coaching was the reason Harrison got his three blocked in a similar situation. Our players are good, not great. Not saying that a better coach couldn't have gotten them executing better, but do you really think other than Jordan, that any of our kids have exhibited a high ceiling of sky's the limit or anything approaching that?

No, our guys aren't more talented than Kentucky. Nobody is.
But its not about skys the limit potential. Its about executing today.
I think we were just as talented and experienced as Villanova and Wisconsin. And in a given situation, yes Dlo Harrison or Greene or Jordan could've hit that shot. But you have to play hard and efficient for 40mins to be in a situation to have that shot against a good opponent. That's where we, and our coaching, failed.
Lets be honest - Aaron Harrison probably only hits that shot 1 out of 5 tries. But he had the opportunity because his team was efficient, played good D all game long, and made the extra pass on several occasions. They didn't win on overwhelming talent alone. They didn't win bc they made better one on one moves. They executed better. They played a team game.

It's funny, but I've watched NCAA tourney games, where one team didn't lose, the other team just won. You get the sense that if the losing team had one more crack they'd have executed well and scored. In those games, even the loser doesn't have to hang their heads - they played like warriors. Our games seemed to always come down to an unraveling on our part, where we failed to do the things you needed to do in order to win. All in all, we ended up where we deserved to. Pin the blame on Lavin or the lack of talent, but I come away thinking our very deep team wasn't all that talented. this is why nearly every player - Greene - Sanchez, Branch, Obekpa, POINTER, Harrison, etc, has been rightfully scorched on this board this season.

Respect your opinion, but I just don’t buy into the “we’re not that talented” argument.

I think Jay Wright is in a pretty good position to judge talent. And here is what he said about SJU’s talent -- this was 4 games into Big East conference play:

“Q:
Other than your team, which Big East team has the most talent?

Jay Wright:
Talent wise, I'd say Creighton, St. John's, Xavier, Georgetown.”

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/49813/villanova-jay-wright

G’town was a disappointment. But one of their starters (Smith) wound up suspended for almost the entire BE season and another starter (Trawick) missed 5 conference games due to injury.

What was our excuse?

So Jay is asked to name a team that has the most talent and he names half the league. Coach speak.

Besides the head coach, this team is missing heart.

And a severely depleted roster with no one probably coming in.
Oh no another negative post by me. OH WELL.

The AD would I bet love no one to complain, then everything would be all good in their world.
I`ll continue to complain until the AD does their job and get rid of a do nothing coach.
Don`t like it? Who`s making you read my posts, you see a post by me then just bypass it. It`s that simple.

 

[stjohnnie75]

Kentucky started 5 freshman. Also watching the elite 8 this weekend got me thinking(not always a good thing) about the talent level of the kids on the 8 teams compared to our talent level. Of our main 8 players, 6 were 4 star recruits coming out of High School. One(Jordan) was a 5 star recruit and one(Sanchez) a JC AA.
From a High School ranking perspective, , that rivals any other team in the elite 8 with the exception of maybe Kentucky.

Yup.

But, with that talent in mind, it's shocking at times how far away we seem from these teams in certain respects, especially offensively. I had the chance to sit very close to the action Friday night, and with no rooting interest was just observing. The structure, discipline, and ball movement from these teams on offense is really what jumped out contrasted against our games.

While we lacked consistency in these departments (to our ultimate demise the last 2 weeks of the season), at our highest points this year I thought we competed defensively, on the backboards, and for 50/50 balls at the level those games were played Friday night.

But we are a world away offensively. Even in the stretches where the teams weren't scoring (largely do to the defensive intensity of the games), there was no dribbling east/west 30 feet from the basket, no out of control 1 on 1, no one pass and shot. They trusted their stuff and ran it consistently for all 40 minutes. They were executing what team offense looks like at the highest levels of Division 1 college basketball. We do not do that.

Those teams that played yesterday really move the ball. They have superior basketball talents that take and make tough shots. I don't think if you gave our players to Ollie or Calipari that the results are much better.

I respectfully + wholeheartedly disagree.

+1, also have to disagree here Beast. I am not saying that, collectively, MSU doesn't have more talent than we do. But the gap between talent is far less than the gap between the way the teams play on the floor, and that's the critical point.

And I think that ties back to perhaps the main point. When the MSU players were coming in, how much more talent did they have on paper than when the SJU players were coming in? That's where I really think you'll find very little gap between us and all but the very top few teams in the country (which perhaps makes MSU not the best example). The top coaches cultivate their players and those players get materially better over the course of their careers.

We have not had that kind of player development, at all. On a team full of players who had been with the program 2 and 3 years this past season, how many do you look at and say "that kid has gotten so much better since he was a freshman"? That, to me, is as big a problem as any we face under the current regime. These teams may have better players than us now - at least players playing better than ours now - but I don't know how much better they were coming in.

You give our players to Izzo for 12 months, put them in the bracket MSU was playing in, and I think that team is playing at the Garden this weekend also.

Ironic that you should mention MSU because they were one of the teams that I specifically looked at, and then looked up their players. As you said, those MSU kids coming out of High School were comparably ranked to our kids. There's no reason at all why those kids look like a cohesive unit, and advanced to the elite 8, and ours don't and got clobbered in the first round of the NIT. Well there is one reason.

Great players play great. You can't teach the Kentucky freshman who made a 3 with a hand in his face as he faded away. By the same token, you couldn't say bad coaching was the reason Harrison got his three blocked in a similar situation. Our players are good, not great. Not saying that a better coach couldn't have gotten them executing better, but do you really think other than Jordan, that any of our kids have exhibited a high ceiling of sky's the limit or anything approaching that?

No, our guys aren't more talented than Kentucky. Nobody is.
But its not about skys the limit potential. Its about executing today.
I think we were just as talented and experienced as Villanova and Wisconsin. And in a given situation, yes Dlo Harrison or Greene or Jordan could've hit that shot. But you have to play hard and efficient for 40mins to be in a situation to have that shot against a good opponent. That's where we, and our coaching, failed.
Lets be honest - Aaron Harrison probably only hits that shot 1 out of 5 tries. But he had the opportunity because his team was efficient, played good D all game long, and made the extra pass on several occasions. They didn't win on overwhelming talent alone. They didn't win bc they made better one on one moves. They executed better. They played a team game.

It's funny, but I've watched NCAA tourney games, where one team didn't lose, the other team just won. You get the sense that if the losing team had one more crack they'd have executed well and scored. In those games, even the loser doesn't have to hang their heads - they played like warriors. Our games seemed to always come down to an unraveling on our part, where we failed to do the things you needed to do in order to win. All in all, we ended up where we deserved to. Pin the blame on Lavin or the lack of talent, but I come away thinking our very deep team wasn't all that talented. this is why nearly every player - Greene - Sanchez, Branch, Obekpa, POINTER, Harrison, etc, has been rightfully scorched on this board this season.

Respect your opinion, but I just don’t buy into the “we’re not that talented” argument.

I think Jay Wright is in a pretty good position to judge talent. And here is what he said about SJU’s talent -- this was 4 games into Big East conference play:

“Q:
Other than your team, which Big East team has the most talent?

Jay Wright:
Talent wise, I'd say Creighton, St. John's, Xavier, Georgetown.”

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/49813/villanova-jay-wright

G’town was a disappointment. But one of their starters (Smith) wound up suspended for almost the entire BE season and another starter (Trawick) missed 5 conference games due to injury.

What was our excuse?

So Jay is asked to name a team that has the most talent and he names half the league. Coach speak.

Besides the head coach, this team is missing heart.

And a severely depleted roster with no one probably coming in.
Oh no another negative post by me. OH WELL.

The AD would I bet love no one to complain, then everything would be all good in their world.
I`ll continue to complain until the AD does their job and get rid of a do nothing coach.
Don`t like it? Who`s making you read my posts, you see a post by me then just bypass it. It`s that simple.

Didn't take your meds today?

I don't see any of your posts quoted, but complain all you want. Knock yourself out.