I know you placed a disclaimer about it not possibly being true, but if he was trying to protect our kids from foul trouble then he'd pull back with this overly, albeit sloppy, aggressive man-to-man defense which often leads to Clark and (insert name) being in foul trouble.
My endorsement for mullin
- Thread starter Eric
- Start date
I know you placed a disclaimer about it not possibly being true, but if he was trying to protect our kids from foul trouble then he'd pull back with this overly, albeit sloppy, aggressive man-to-man defense which often leads to Clark and (insert name) being in foul trouble.
Boo I wouldn't as I'm sure you wouldn't call Nebraska, Oregon state and Arizona state as mid majors and all 3 teams have beaten very good teams this year....all with bigger bodies than us too.....add in ucf with tacko fall too....we hung in rebounding with all these games and out rebounded a much bigger Nebraska team with the deeper team back then. Rebounding got worse once Lovett went down. I'm not saying that's the reason why we don't "crash" the boards anymore (and I say that in jest) but who knows? Could be a factor
The Duke and Coach K analogy is an outlier. Most coaches whose record is on or around Mullin's record during their 3rd season typically is fired at seasons' end. If they do somehow last another season, then they usually still fall short of expectations and gone after their fourth season.
The Coach K analogy is a weak argument, too (although, I knew you wasn't comparing the two).
For starters, Coach K had coaching experience before he ever became the head coach at Duke. He was an assistant to Bobby Knight at Indiana for a season, and then the head coach at Army for five seasons. So, he had six seasons on the sideline as an assistant and head coach. Mullin had none leading up to him accepting the job at St. John’s.
Secondly, Coach K had a winning season in his first season (coached Duke to the 3rd round of the NIT) which likely, along with a bonanza-like recruiting class, bought him a fourth season. Mullin has yet to even have a winning season. I once heard Coach K (as a guest) on a radio show mentioning (paraphrased), "He had to win that fourth season or he was likely going to be fired."
Thirdly, the recruiting class I mentioned aboved ended up being the class that propelled Coach K's career at Duke. Johnny Dawkins, Mark Alarie, Jay Bilas, and David Henderson was a highly-rated recruiting class brought in by Coach K in 1982. They struggled their freshmen season, as the best players were mainly the freshmen. In those days, if you didn't have a handful of solid upperclassmen, then most likely a team wasn't gonna win with freshmen being their best players. The following season, albeit still somewhat young for those days, Coach K added a top 30 player in point guard, Tommy Amaker. Amaker (freshman), along with the previous recruiting class (now sophomores) went 24-10 (7-7 in ACC play), advanced to the ACC Tournament Championship (lost to Maryland), and made it to the 2nd round of the NCAA Tournament. The rest is history.
Lastly, Coach K didn't really have to worry about roster turnover during those days. Transfers wasn't frequent, and not many players was going hardship (to the NBA). Most roster turnover during those days had to do with simply a player didn't have anymore eligibility and graduated.
I, truly hope Mullin finds his way, but he really does has his work cut out for him.
beast of the east
Active member
When you start from nothing you take a risk on a guy like Zach Brown.
When you have a guy like Ellison getting 20 minutes a game and he sees that Simon and other eligible players going to eat his minutes, you run for the hills rather than be a 9th man.
When you are in very low demand like a Yakwe and Ali,you stick around.
When you are a Freudenberg or Mussini, and the next seasons minutes are going to be constricted or non-existent, you bolt because your US education is over and Europe will get you minutes at the right level.
I posted something last summer on a bad day that I felt this team was 1 step forward and 1 step back. Immediately I was corrected at the increase in talent, and I didn't have the nerve to respond that the depth hadn't improved.
When a guy gets two fouls right away in the first half. You HAVE to pull him. That's textbook in college basketball.
Why would anyone think that Jarvis got 6, Lavin got 5, Norm got 6, but Mullin would only get 4 years to prove himself?
When you have a guy like Ellison getting 20 minutes a game and he sees that Simon and other eligible players going to eat his minutes, you run for the hills rather than be a 9th man.
When you are in very low demand like a Yakwe and Ali,you stick around.
When you are a Freudenberg or Mussini, and the next seasons minutes are going to be constricted or non-existent, you bolt because your US education is over and Europe will get you minutes at the right level.
I posted something last summer on a bad day that I felt this team was 1 step forward and 1 step back. Immediately I was corrected at the increase in talent, and I didn't have the nerve to respond that the depth hadn't improved.
When a guy gets two fouls right away in the first half. You HAVE to pull him. That's textbook in college basketball.
Why would anyone think that Jarvis got 6, Lavin got 5, Norm got 6, but Mullin would only get 4 years to prove himself?
Class of 72
Active member
I think it is a given that Chris will get a 4th year. I take umbrage with your use of the word "only" however.
Should Chris suffer a .500 season or less next year with all his own players there is absolutely zero possibility for a 5th year unless he and his agent play hardball. Then it would mean money, or the lack of, will be a determinant rather moving the program forward competitively.
Mike Jarvis was fired for going 2-4 before the Big East season even began in year six which was an absurdity only St. John's was capable of; therfore, Jarvis coached 5 years with his worst year going 8-8 in the then REAL BIG Big East. He had two strong NCAA appearances and an NIT Championship in those 5 years. Politics got him fired, not his coaching or lack thereof.
Lavin got 5 but only coached four full years. Two NCAA and 2 NITs and again, politics mostly had a hand in his firing. Norm got 6 years because the program was almost shut down by Father Harry, who was ok taking bribes and free suits, but didn't like lip from Jarvis. Accordingly, a hypocritical president allowed Norm to clean up a mess that he, Harrington, personally created.
Chris Mullin thus far has not come close to any of those coaches in the winning column and while recruiting has been good, it is not off the charts to change the program in the short term. If that short term is 4 years in some opinions is a matter for debate. My only concern with recruiting is (a ) Matt seems to focus on transfers or players formerly committed elsewhere (b) he has less respect in the prep community than other stronger recruiters especially with successful head coaches by their side. A second recruiter to replace Slice is a top priority and an assistant with college experience is a must for the program to begin next season with any hope of success rather than just having a full roster or hoping that Mullin will coach himself into a 5th season.
redfan259999888
Active member
I think it is a given that Chris will get a 4th year. I take umbrage with your use of the word "only" however.
Should Chris suffer a .500 season or less next year with all his own players there is absolutely zero possibility for a 5th year unless he and his agent play hardball. Then it would mean money, or the lack of, will be a determinant rather moving the program forward competitively.
Mike Jarvis was fired for going 2-4 before the Big East season even began in year six which was an absurdity only St. John's was capable of; therfore, Jarvis coached 5 years with his worst year going 8-8 in the then REAL BIG Big East. He had two strong NCAA appearances and an NIT Championship in those 5 years. Politics got him fired, not his coaching or lack thereof.
Lavin got 5 but only coached four full years. Two NCAA and 2 NITs and again, politics mostly had a hand in his firing. Norm got 6 years because the program was almost shut down by Father Harry, who was ok taking bribes and free suits, but didn't like lip from Jarvis. Accordingly, a hypocritical president allowed Norm to clean up a mess that he, Harrington, personally created.
Chris Mullin thus far has not come close to any of those coaches in the winning column and while recruiting has been good, it is not off the charts to change the program in the short term. If that short term is 4 years in some opinions is a matter for debate. My only concern with recruiting is (a ) Matt seems to focus on transfers or players formerly committed elsewhere (b) he has less respect in the prep community than other stronger recruiters especially with successful head coaches by their side. A second recruiter to replace Slice is a top priority and an assistant with college experience is a must for the program to begin next season with any hope of success rather than just having a full roster or hoping that Mullin will coach himself into a 5th season.
72, I'm not sure about this, but I think Chris has a 6 year contract, I seen someone put that on a thread here. They'll never fire him, they'd rather just let the contract run out. I don't think you'll need a full 6 years to know what kind of coach he'll be here. To me, next year will tell me alot about Mullin's final 2 years.
beast of the east
Active member
I think it is a given that Chris will get a 4th year. I take umbrage with your use of the word "only" however.
Should Chris suffer a .500 season or less next year with all his own players there is absolutely zero possibility for a 5th year unless he and his agent play hardball. Then it would mean money, or the lack of, will be a determinant rather moving the program forward competitively.
Mike Jarvis was fired for going 2-4 before the Big East season even began in year six which was an absurdity only St. John's was capable of; therfore, Jarvis coached 5 years with his worst year going 8-8 in the then REAL BIG Big East. He had two strong NCAA appearances and an NIT Championship in those 5 years. Politics got him fired, not his coaching or lack thereof.
Lavin got 5 but only coached four full years. Two NCAA and 2 NITs and again, politics mostly had a hand in his firing. Norm got 6 years because the program was almost shut down by Father Harry, who was ok taking bribes and free suits, but didn't like lip from Jarvis. Accordingly, a hypocritical president allowed Norm to clean up a mess that he, Harrington, personally created.
Chris Mullin thus far has not come close to any of those coaches in the winning column and while recruiting has been good, it is not off the charts to change the program in the short term. If that short term is 4 years in some opinions is a matter for debate. My only concern with recruiting is (a ) Matt seems to focus on transfers or players formerly committed elsewhere (b) he has less respect in the prep community than other stronger recruiters especially with successful head coaches by their side. A second recruiter to replace Slice is a top priority and an assistant with college experience is a must for the program to begin next season with any hope of success rather than just having a full roster or hoping that Mullin will coach himself into a 5th season.
72, I'm not sure about this, but I think Chris has a 6 year contract, I seen someone put that on a thread here. They'll never fire him, they'd rather just let the contract run out. I don't think you'll need a full 6 years to know what kind of coach he'll be here. To me, next year will tell me alot about Mullin's final 2 years.
What do you know about the university's relationship with Chris, or how they view his leadership? Or that they would just let his contract run out? Lots of speculation without knowledge. As far as I can tell, other than wins, St. John's is fully supportive of Chris - and after the last 15 years or so, that's saying a lot.
Spocky Ramone
Well-known member
Ok, so Michael Ray Richardson is now the official spokesman for the team.
Too many people here have donned the rose colored spectacles when looking backwards, waxing poetic about former coaches who all, at the very least, disapponted us. At worst, they brought us headline-grabbing controversy.
Our current problems are systemic, certainly bad leadership at the top that did not understand the value of a quality flagship sports program (look what one pass did for BC), or, perhaps worse, did not care - and, sadly, arguments can be made for this (and have been).
After Coach was hired, I asked “will we have an X’s and O’s coach on the staff?” The answer was “Yes, Chris Mullin”. I had my doubts at the time, and have prattled on about that in the past (you probably have those posts bookmarked).
Sports is about winning, and we all want to win. It’s been too long, and our patience is gone. It is, as they say, the bottom line. I get it. We are all emotionally attached to the program, no question about it. Some are financially as well. It has been a soul-crushing season.
Still, while this season has been written off, there are positives. We are breaking out of a perpetually bad recruiting cycle. I see better players coming into the fold. And more of them. I see positives on the court (I see the negatives as well). We were too reliant on a short bench, and it was our undoing. One guy. Ask yourself where we would be today with that one guy? I bet our premier player would be showing less signs of a sophomore slump. Also, we need to keep in mind that you can’t build a mansion with only a pile of 2x4s. That’s our current predicament. You can only do so much with what you got.
I think we will be better next year, significantly so. I see improvements. I see, at times, good ball movement and a defense that can drive the other team nuts. More bodies (on their way), bigger bodies (on the way), will make a huge difference. Our premier guys will get to take a breather, which will make all of the difference at crunch time. They also will not have to play out of position, another ongoing issue for our team. It’s a process, and it’s moving in the right direction from a big picture perspective, which, admittedly, is not easy to see.
Our coach isn’t going anywhere. And if he did, do you really want to reset? Again? I don’t. And I can see U&U U’s braintrust pulling a Wilpon, and paying a coach for the results we currently see, and not being all in, reaching for the brass ring. I want to see how things play out as they are. I think we will be pleased with the results. And that’s coming from somebody who, as he gets older, gets frustrated with lost seasons (fyi - this is a euphemism to the Nth degree).
Don’t give up the ship, despite what Michael Ray says.
I’m Spocky Ramone and I approve this message.
Too many people here have donned the rose colored spectacles when looking backwards, waxing poetic about former coaches who all, at the very least, disapponted us. At worst, they brought us headline-grabbing controversy.
Our current problems are systemic, certainly bad leadership at the top that did not understand the value of a quality flagship sports program (look what one pass did for BC), or, perhaps worse, did not care - and, sadly, arguments can be made for this (and have been).
After Coach was hired, I asked “will we have an X’s and O’s coach on the staff?” The answer was “Yes, Chris Mullin”. I had my doubts at the time, and have prattled on about that in the past (you probably have those posts bookmarked).
Sports is about winning, and we all want to win. It’s been too long, and our patience is gone. It is, as they say, the bottom line. I get it. We are all emotionally attached to the program, no question about it. Some are financially as well. It has been a soul-crushing season.
Still, while this season has been written off, there are positives. We are breaking out of a perpetually bad recruiting cycle. I see better players coming into the fold. And more of them. I see positives on the court (I see the negatives as well). We were too reliant on a short bench, and it was our undoing. One guy. Ask yourself where we would be today with that one guy? I bet our premier player would be showing less signs of a sophomore slump. Also, we need to keep in mind that you can’t build a mansion with only a pile of 2x4s. That’s our current predicament. You can only do so much with what you got.
I think we will be better next year, significantly so. I see improvements. I see, at times, good ball movement and a defense that can drive the other team nuts. More bodies (on their way), bigger bodies (on the way), will make a huge difference. Our premier guys will get to take a breather, which will make all of the difference at crunch time. They also will not have to play out of position, another ongoing issue for our team. It’s a process, and it’s moving in the right direction from a big picture perspective, which, admittedly, is not easy to see.
Our coach isn’t going anywhere. And if he did, do you really want to reset? Again? I don’t. And I can see U&U U’s braintrust pulling a Wilpon, and paying a coach for the results we currently see, and not being all in, reaching for the brass ring. I want to see how things play out as they are. I think we will be pleased with the results. And that’s coming from somebody who, as he gets older, gets frustrated with lost seasons (fyi - this is a euphemism to the Nth degree).
Don’t give up the ship, despite what Michael Ray says.
I’m Spocky Ramone and I approve this message.
And when you're Luther Muhammad and you're told you're the program's No. 1 recruiting priority and then you see it's possible you'll be one of six guards on next year's team (with, at the time, starters Ponds, LoVett & Simon looking like they'll be returning as well as a 3-star current frosh and an incoming transfer), you opt for a program where you're assured of seeing lots of PT.
I will agree with Redken that we might have lost Muhammad because of playing time concerns but the reverse of that is the inability to bring in a center with the promise of plenty of playing time on a team with tournament hopes. Brown was arrested how long ago?
This team is shot with too many disturbing games to go and the only solution to get this horrible taste out of all SJU supporters mouths is for Mullin to replace St. Jean and Richmond. They may be the smartest guys in the room but sometimes like the Jets firing the offensive coordinator every few years someone has to go. This staff requires wholesale changes before next season.
This team is shot with too many disturbing games to go and the only solution to get this horrible taste out of all SJU supporters mouths is for Mullin to replace St. Jean and Richmond. They may be the smartest guys in the room but sometimes like the Jets firing the offensive coordinator every few years someone has to go. This staff requires wholesale changes before next season.
There is no doubt that Mully was and will always be a fan favorite. He was a tremendous player and loves the program as much as anyone. As fans, and I'm sure he will agree, we want success for this program which has been through torment. From scandals, to defections, to coaching changes, to conference realignment, we've had it all. Enough is enough. This is a premier market in a premier conference. Yes, we are not Duke, NC or Kentucky, but there are plenty of schools who wish they were where ( Big East) we are now. 0-10 is unacceptable. The excuses are unacceptable at this point. All this misery that surrounds this program is no different from what other programs go through and rectify. I, like many have supported the Mully choice, but enough is enough. We are the laughing stock of 2018 College Hoops. Its time for a hire that will focus on making players into great college players and not looking past these years into the pro years which I think all of this has created. Dan Hurley comes to mind. Anyone that is a great "Coach" who hires good recruiters. We need to stabilize this program. Keep the current recruits and stop all this nonsense. OK, I aired out my frustration, now Im sure people will go against what Im posting, but you need to face this reality, enough already!!
southernjohnny2
Member
I wasnt a fan of hiring Mullin in the first place, that being said i am not a fan of letting him go right now either! Richmond and St Jean should be gone, and an x and o PJ Carlesimo should come in to teach Mullin and the kids! Bring in another recruiter. I am tired of hearing the excuses of only having 6 kids, Duke plays 6 kids! We have some talent, but Ponds needs to shoot 3s all summer and practice going right! Clark shouldnt dribble left all off season. Everyone stop trying to block everything and learn to box the hell out! We have same issue we have every year, no 3 pt shooting! And no rebounding! Simon shoot 3s all summer and the rest of the season! Ahmed glad you are graduating! Next season Simon needs to improve drastically his shooting, we cannot play 2 guards who cannot shoot!!! Trimble nice off the bench and has gotten better, but too slow to be an impact player...we need a PJ type bench coach!!!!
No one , despite the self professed Geniuses on this site, would have remotely thought this Season would fall off the tracks so badly in the BE Conference games . Most knew the Roster was razor thin, even with Clark and Simon being added . The Strategy conceived in the off season , after LoVett committed to returning was to implement a 3 Guard Offense , with LoVett , Ponds and Simon carrying much of the offensive load . Ponds and Lovett were penciled in for about 40 points a game , maybe more . They had shown last year their styles were comparable and they created havoc for nearly every opponent . Why shouldn’t that continue and if you were Mullin , you would say , of course . Through the early season against Missouri and Arizona State , with Lovett playing , we nearly won both games , against ranked opponents at the time . Fortunes looked bright for the BE Schedule . While the lack of a true Center and Power Forward were evident , especially against the 2 ranked teams , the scoring of Ponds , Simon and Lovett seemed capable of attaining a .500 Conference Record at 9-9 and maybe a post season berth . Then , Lovett went down and frankly the season with it ! Likely the results would have been the same if it were Ponds injured as both were pillars of the team . Lovett’s loss disrupted the team composition and effectiveness . Ponds had to try and do more , a lot more and Simon had to assume PG responsibilities , take up the scoring slack , cover the opponents best player and in general , try and do everything , defend , score, rebound , steal , shoot the outside jumper , which is a skill he does not have . While Owens got to start with Lovett out , and has been a solid contributor on offense and shot blocking, he does not rebound well and is not a post up player . He also gets pushed around regularly by stronger players . Clark , we all thought , was going to have a inside component to his game . He does not , strictly a small forward with a decent outside shot and a very good free throw shooter . He has a weak handle , all left hand and has limited effectiveness going to the Rim . He also never rebounds . Izzo must have been beserk with that weakness . And , he shows little on the ball Defense . Ahmed , has been what we saw last year but, not as effective . Out of control at times , weak defender and a non rebounder . Ponds , I believe is playing hurt and his game is more blood and guts than the finesse and deep shooting he showed last year . He is also being double teamed and often covered by bigger and stronger opponent guards . Plus , he gets hammered every time he goes to the hoop and the Refs don’t call a lot of the abuse he takes going to the Rim . Why not ? Who knows ? Our Bench is weak , way below a BE standard . The rhetoric against Mullin is symptomatic of a disgruntled , long suffering and often , intolerant fan base of self proclaimed B.B. experts that have it all figured out . Kind of like the Giants fan
Base this year , which was all over the lot with their analysis . It seems to me that a vocal segment of the posters here , actually want Mullin to fail and have been that way since he was hired . Why is that ? Lavinwood disciples should consider how well our record would have been , had Steve been the Coach for another year , after DLO, Greene, Pointer, etc graduated. Jordan was already on his way flunking our and Obepka had decided it was better to smoke a lot of weed than play in the BE tournament . Is there any doubt Lavin ‘s Record with what he left Mullin would have been any better ? It is possible this Team May go 0-18 at this point , though I doubt it . Mullin does have to take the heat for investing more Resources in the 2018-19Roster than he did in the 2017-18 Roster . But, we won’t know the value of doing that , until next year . And , I am dumbfounded by those on here who continually elevate Mike Rice as someone we should hire to be a Assistant ? What is so special about him ? Other than get fired at Rutgers for abusing players . Remember the old adage by a long ago Coach who was quoted as saying , “ it’s more about the Billy and Joe’s than it is about the X and O’s .” Besides I think the Arm Chair critique of Mullin and staffs Coaching abilities is way overblown . But, the Amateurs who abound here , seem to know all the inside info , even if much of it is pure BS . If those amongst you here , go back to the end of Last season and forecast a great season ahead , reread those posts . Simon and Clark , owing to the reputation of the School’s they were transferring from , Arizona and Mich State respectively were heralded as being the answers to all that was wrong about last year ‘s team and how their addition was going to propel us to new heights . They are nice role players who , transferred here because they were not going to play any meaningful Role at the Schools they left . In other words, they would have been second or third team subs . We see first hand their limitations and it seems Miller and Izzo did too ! And , for the Statisticians who use 6–12 shooting stats to proclaim a Players 3 point abilities but, demean Mussini’s 51-136 , a 41 percent mark , please don’t tax yourself further . And , Mussini only got 6 man minutes last year . Mussini would win nearly every game of Horse against Simon or Clark . I would bet on it .
Base this year , which was all over the lot with their analysis . It seems to me that a vocal segment of the posters here , actually want Mullin to fail and have been that way since he was hired . Why is that ? Lavinwood disciples should consider how well our record would have been , had Steve been the Coach for another year , after DLO, Greene, Pointer, etc graduated. Jordan was already on his way flunking our and Obepka had decided it was better to smoke a lot of weed than play in the BE tournament . Is there any doubt Lavin ‘s Record with what he left Mullin would have been any better ? It is possible this Team May go 0-18 at this point , though I doubt it . Mullin does have to take the heat for investing more Resources in the 2018-19Roster than he did in the 2017-18 Roster . But, we won’t know the value of doing that , until next year . And , I am dumbfounded by those on here who continually elevate Mike Rice as someone we should hire to be a Assistant ? What is so special about him ? Other than get fired at Rutgers for abusing players . Remember the old adage by a long ago Coach who was quoted as saying , “ it’s more about the Billy and Joe’s than it is about the X and O’s .” Besides I think the Arm Chair critique of Mullin and staffs Coaching abilities is way overblown . But, the Amateurs who abound here , seem to know all the inside info , even if much of it is pure BS . If those amongst you here , go back to the end of Last season and forecast a great season ahead , reread those posts . Simon and Clark , owing to the reputation of the School’s they were transferring from , Arizona and Mich State respectively were heralded as being the answers to all that was wrong about last year ‘s team and how their addition was going to propel us to new heights . They are nice role players who , transferred here because they were not going to play any meaningful Role at the Schools they left . In other words, they would have been second or third team subs . We see first hand their limitations and it seems Miller and Izzo did too ! And , for the Statisticians who use 6–12 shooting stats to proclaim a Players 3 point abilities but, demean Mussini’s 51-136 , a 41 percent mark , please don’t tax yourself further . And , Mussini only got 6 man minutes last year . Mussini would win nearly every game of Horse against Simon or Clark . I would bet on it .
JackofVirginia
Active member
How does our recruit Brooks compare to Luther Muhammad? Anyone know?