Mariano

[Pleasedontbanmeagain]

The more I think about it and think about how good he has been for so long the more I start to think that Mariano is the best baseball player I have ever seen in my lifetime

What? He was the best closer of all time. Agreed. But this is getting ridiculus. He was a great closer for a long time but I'd take a good #2 starter over any closer, even the great Mariano.

Difference of opinion because for me personally I'd take the best closer of all time over any #2 starter and I'd take him over a lot of number 1 starters because I think a relief pitcher and coming into the pressure situations is harder mentally than being a starter

My original disagreement was with your statement that Mo is the best baseball player you have seen in your lifetime. I can think of dozens of baseball players in the past 20 years that I'd rather have than Mo. He is the greatest closer of all time. No doubt. But baseball is a 9 inning game. I admit I'm a Met fan but I would take Jeter ahead of Rivera in a heartbeat.[/quote]

How would you imply that the guy who pitches 1 inning at the end is more important than the guy who pitched 7 or even 8 to get him there? It's not logical. No one argues which is tougher mentally...the closer is a tough spot to be in because everything is on your shoulders, but I'd take a HOF starting pitcher over Mo any day. Closers have their roles too, and they are very important, but not at the level of a great SP. I'll take Seaver over Mo...or even a guy like Halladay in his prime.

 

[mjmaherjr]

The more I think about it and think about how good he has been for so long the more I start to think that Mariano is the best baseball player I have ever seen in my lifetime

What? He was the best closer of all time. Agreed. But this is getting ridiculus. He was a great closer for a long time but I'd take a good #2 starter over any closer, even the great Mariano.

Difference of opinion because for me personally I'd take the best closer of all time over any #2 starter and I'd take him over a lot of number 1 starters because I think a relief pitcher and coming into the pressure situations is harder mentally than being a starter

My original disagreement was with your statement that Mo is the best baseball player you have seen in your lifetime. I can think of dozens of baseball players in the past 20 years that I'd rather have than Mo. He is the greatest closer of all time. No doubt. But baseball is a 9 inning game. I admit I'm a Met fan but I would take Jeter ahead of Rivera in a heartbeat.[/quote]

And I'd do the exact opposite and take Rivera over Jeter every time. lol

To me he is a once in a lifetime player. Arod I thought was one of the best I ever saw but that's out the window now with all this cr@p. Someone made the point before of starters having a disadvantage of facing batters several times in a game which I understand but I think they also have less pressure pitching in the first 6 innings than coming in up 1 in the 9th with 2 men on base and 1 out. And to top that off is the amount of time Mariano has been so dominant in the age of steroids. How old is he now ? 40 something ? And look at the year he had still

Jesus I'm a met fan arguing for Mariano. lol Beats waiting for the Collins extension

 

[mjmaherjr]

The more I think about it and think about how good he has been for so long the more I start to think that Mariano is the best baseball player I have ever seen in my lifetime

What? He was the best closer of all time. Agreed. But this is getting ridiculus. He was a great closer for a long time but I'd take a good #2 starter over any closer, even the great Mariano.

Difference of opinion because for me personally I'd take the best closer of all time over any #2 starter and I'd take him over a lot of number 1 starters because I think a relief pitcher and coming into the pressure situations is harder mentally than being a starter

My original disagreement was with your statement that Mo is the best baseball player you have seen in your lifetime. I can think of dozens of baseball players in the past 20 years that I'd rather have than Mo. He is the greatest closer of all time. No doubt. But baseball is a 9 inning game. I admit I'm a Met fan but I would take Jeter ahead of Rivera in a heartbeat.

How would you imply that the guy who pitches 1 inning at the end is more important than the guy who pitched 7 or even 8 to get him there? It's not logical. No one argues which is tougher mentally...the closer is a tough spot to be in because everything is on your shoulders, but I'd take a HOF starting pitcher over Mo any day. Closers have their roles too, and they are very important, but not at the level of a great SP. I'll take Seaver over Mo...or even a guy like Halladay in his prime.[/quote]

Here is the thing and this is what I'm talking about with Mo. Would you take Halladay in his prime for 7 years or take Mo for what he did for his entire career ?

Thats what I'm saying about maybe being the best player I've seen. He has been so dominant for so long. How many people have been so dominant for so long in my lifetime of watching ball ( I'm 43 )

The yankees had late innings locked up for so freaking long. I don't ever even remember feeling that way as a Met fan. Franco always made me sweat. Benitez made me puke. Orosco made me pray

 

[beast of the east]

I thought I was the only one having problem with the quote function, but it isn't working properly.

I think all of us debating the merits of closer vs. position player are in no way devaluing Rivera's career accomplishments. Nobody, ever, has had the end-to-end success out of the bullpen that Rivera has had. You can make the argument to correlate the Yankees incredible annual presence in the playoffs with the success Rivera had as a closer every season of his career. Rivera did blow saves, so I think an analysis of his conversion vs. other top closers would be interesting. Certainly the Yankee lineup gave Rivera a lot of opportunities to enter games with a lead (much more than say a Meta closer).

Not sure for one game that I'd agree with taking Rivera over Gossage in his prime. Gossage IS a HOF pitcher also. I liked flamethrowers coming out of the bullpen, and Gossage hardly needed signals from a catcher.

Another element to consider that in Rivera's era, closing is a much cleaner job. You generally come in to start the 9th inning. In the prior era, a closer came into a tight situation in the 7th, 8th or 9th inning, often with less than 2 outs and more than 1 runner on base - decidedly more difficult, because the closer didn't have the luxury of even allowing a single hit. Also, in that era, top closers would frequently pitch 2, 3, and sometimes 4 innings, Middle relievers were mostly mop up guys back then, coming in when a starter go knocked out early or games were out of reach later.

To be clear, there has never been a closer who was so good for so long. Consider that Rivera will be 44 in November, and even in his final season is performing at a very high level. Simply amazing.

PS. Nice to see so many Mets fans on here. I think the suffering of a Mets fan has allowed so many of us to stick around through the dismal SJU years.