MAAC or Bust

The argument that someone made that the BE is not the BE of the past as a reason for not staying is not imho valid. So what? The same poster I believe talked about the new teams not being rivals. Was Pittsburgh, Va Tech, Louisville,WVa. or Miami rivalries? Outside of the one time we played them (and beat them) in The BE tourney championship, was BC? They were good (great in some cases) who moved on and were replaced by some other very good programs. The BE is still a top notch conference with good programs and good basketball.

This attitude that well we can’t win in the BE so let’s go to the MAAC and any other small conference is unrealistic for several reason as I believe Paultzman pointed out and sends the wrong message to the students and the alumni.
 
The MAAC played a triple header at Nassau Colisseum Saturday that the league has been pushing for about ten months since they are looking to bring their season ending tournament there next year. They sold just over 2500 tickets.
Better to drop the sport than go there.
 
Well since everyone's favorite coaching candidate is in the A10 how about there? For argument's sake.
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You are the "master" man! :)

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I get the $ issue. But for purely basketball reasons I personally wouldn't have a problem if we dropped down a conference. Didn't A10 get 3 bids last year or year before? The legit question is would we be able to recruit? Well we used to say the Garden was a draw and now it isn't. For the type of kids we should be looking at I don't think a slight drop in conference should make a difference. And I do think it is pretty funny that everybody wants a coach in the A10 but when someone brings up a move there some of those same people call it blasphemy.. Hey if the original BE teams(Cuse, Uconn, Pitt, BC) were still here I would never even entertain it. But again for me it is not the same.

The bottom line for me is if we stay or go I think we need to embrace that we are not a power team. If Mullin doesn't work out, I would like to get a solid mid major coach who runs an offense that is built around the three. And he should recruit accordingly. For too many years are coaches wait around for a Hail Mary recruit to come here and then we are just scrambling to put together a balanced roster
 
Well since everyone's favorite coaching candidate is in the A10 how about there? For argument's sake.
Click to expand...

You are the "master" man! :)

[attachment]image.jpeg[/attachment]
Click to expand...

I get the $ issue. But for purely basketball reasons I personally wouldn't have a problem if we dropped down a conference. Didn't A10 get 3 bids last year or year before? The legit question is would we be able to recruit? Well we used to say the Garden was a draw and now it isn't. For the type of kids we should be looking at I don't think a slight drop in conference should make a difference. And I do think it is pretty funny that everybody wants a coach in the A10 but when someone brings up a move there some of those same people call it blasphemy.. Hey if the original BE teams(Cuse, Uconn, Pitt, BC) were still here I would never even entertain it. But again for me it is not the same.

The bottom line for me is if we stay or go I think we need to embrace that we are not a power team. If Mullin doesn't work out, I would like to get a solid mid major coach who runs an offense that is built around the three. And he should recruit accordingly. For too many years are coaches wait around for a Hail Mary recruit to come here and then we are just scrambling to put together a balanced roster
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I don’t know why it’s “pretty funny that everybody wants a coach in the A10 but when someone brings up a move there some of those same people call it blasphemy.” I don’t know who this A10 Coach but as one who called moving to a lower conference blasphemy in another thread, you are comparing apples to oranges. A lot of good coaches of major programs have gotten their head coaching starts in the lower levels of college basketball. They cut their teeth their and move on, sometimes going from minor to mid-major to major. Nothing wrong with that. Start off in the minors, climb the ladder get to the majors. That’s a helluva difference than dropping your biggest franchise down that level, losing fan support, tv deal, potential fundraising and a whole lot more.

One thing is the same though, after being in the majors, who wants to go to the minors which is exactly what we would be doing as a program.

Northwestern for many, many,many years was the bottom feeder in Big 10 football and basketball. Football became competitive and they have had recent success in basketball, making the NCAA tournament for the first time ever last year. They never dropped to a lower conference due to their lack of success.
 
Well, I suppose it just comes down to who is willing to tolerate losing year in and year out, for the sake of getting at tv money that doesn't do the fans any good, or to preserve some supposed BE prestige, and those who would rather win at an appropriate level commensurate with the school's commitment to the program. The measure of the school's commitment is not simply how much you pay your coach, incidentally.

It is actually astonishing to me that most posters would rather be consigned to losing year in and year out for the chance to make the NCAA once every 10 years or so. I thought watching sports was about enjoyment and seeing your team win and be successful, not ensuring some tv revenue, the benefits of which are elusive to me.

To me, there is no shame in "right-sizing" the program to the level of the admin's commitment to the program. It is embarrassing to every year have to explain why we are less than successful. In the end, I will watch the team regardless, but as I get older, I want to be able to enjoy it and be proud to be a fan. I don't what to have to endure the never ending complaints about the product after each game on boards like this, the same guys who grouse about the state of the program who won't consider a plausible solution is to right-size.

But, that's a legitimate difference of opinion.

 
Well since everyone's favorite coaching candidate is in the A10 how about there? For argument's sake.
Click to expand...

You are the "master" man! :)

[attachment]image.jpeg[/attachment]
Click to expand...

I get the $ issue. But for purely basketball reasons I personally wouldn't have a problem if we dropped down a conference. Didn't A10 get 3 bids last year or year before? The legit question is would we be able to recruit? Well we used to say the Garden was a draw and now it isn't. For the type of kids we should be looking at I don't think a slight drop in conference should make a difference. And I do think it is pretty funny that everybody wants a coach in the A10 but when someone brings up a move there some of those same people call it blasphemy.. Hey if the original BE teams(Cuse, Uconn, Pitt, BC) were still here I would never even entertain it. But again for me it is not the same.

The bottom line for me is if we stay or go I think we need to embrace that we are not a power team. If Mullin doesn't work out, I would like to get a solid mid major coach who runs an offense that is built around the three. And he should recruit accordingly. For too many years are coaches wait around for a Hail Mary recruit to come here and then we are just scrambling to put together a balanced roster
Click to expand...

I don’t know why it’s “pretty funny that everybody wants a coach in the A10 but when someone brings up a move there some of those same people call it blasphemy.” I don’t know who this A10 Coach but as one who called moving to a lower conference blasphemy in another thread, you are comparing apples to oranges. A lot of good coaches of major programs have gotten their head coaching starts in the lower levels of college basketball. They cut their teeth their and move on, sometimes going from minor to mid-major to major. Nothing wrong with that. Start off in the minors, climb the ladder get to the majors. That’s a helluva difference than dropping your biggest franchise down that level, losing fan support, tv deal, potential fundraising and a whole lot more.

One thing is the same though, after being in the majors, who wants to go to the minors which is exactly what we would be doing as a program.

Northwestern for many, many,many years was the bottom feeder in Big 10 football and basketball. Football became competitive and they have had recent success in basketball, making the NCAA tournament for the first time ever last year. They never dropped to a lower conference due to their lack of success.
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So now we are the Northwestern of the BE. How is that for a recruiting tool? No one is saying we have to or should move. At least I am not. I am only saying that I think having a conversation about it is ok. I get being angry about the MAAC. But a slight down grade wouldn't offend me. I bet that if someone would have told you 10 or 15 years ago we were only going to play a handful of Garden games, that would upset people on here. Honestly that one bothers me. But I understand it.
 
First off, after 6 years of Norm, there were serious whispers even in coaching circles as to whether or not it made sense for SJU to drop from the Big East.

Then again, going all the way back to the Mark Aguirre and Ray Meyers days, DePaul has been putrid.

Until the Andrew Gaze days, Seton Hall was such a doormat, they were good for a sure 2 wins when we played them.

On the other hand, programs like Creighton, Xavier, Butler all appear to be elevated or solidified once they gained entry to the Big East. Yea, I know Butler got to the finals before then, but it was as a mid major.

Locally, Fordham, Hoftstra, Manhattan, even St. Peter's once had runs at being competitive on a national stage. Once the days of big conferences took hold, they have all faded out of view for the most part.

Anyone who thinks stepping down a level we will run rampant over a conference, and then getting automatic conference bids year after year are mistaken. Even then, with less talented players, a 12-16 seed almost always spells a sure first round exit.

If there is one guy of the 6 coaches we've had in the post Lou era who takes losing to heart, who will simply not accept anything less than teams in the NCAA, I think we have him now. The obvious frustration is understandable. Losing like this isn't fun, not even a little bit. But I also don't think we are a laughing stock. People I know that follow college hoops closely know we've had a tough break with Lovett, and friends of teams we already played, like at Nova and Missouri, thought we gave them really tough games and have a good future.

Those of you who propose that withholding your season ticket money will cause St. John's to change directions are sadly mistaken. Certainly you are buying a product, and if you aren't happy aren't obligated to buy. Just remember though, that less than 15 years ago a big donor pulled a multimillion dollar pledge when he didn't get his way.
 
No way we're leaving the Big East; I am surprised this got traction.

Now that he is off WFAN, Michael Francesa has the time to "remember" his verbal pledge and make good to alma mater on his promised scholarship, that will keep us in the Big East.

Losing a prominent St. John's alum from such an important sports radio station is not hurting St. John's at all since he never talked about us anyway, and when Minko came on he'd make fun of Minko and St. John's for the most part.
 
While we are at it, I think SJU should drop out of the Catholic Church altogether.

If you think we are pissed, imagine what St. John himself is feeling knowing his good name is being sullied by the basketball program.
 
I HAVE BEEN A STJ FAN SINCE THE DAYS OF SONNY DOVE,AND THE McINTYRE BROTHERS...AND WHILE ST PETERS,FORDHAM ,COLUMBIA AND NYU(EARLIER) ALL HAD SOME GREAT SHORT TERM SUCCESS... THEY WERE LEFT HIGH AND DRY WHEN COACHES LIKE DIGGER PHELPS WERE STOLEN BY NOTRE DAME,ETC.....GOING TO A MAAC LEAGUE IS PLAIN STUPID.. YOU MAY WIN 2 YEARS UNTIL EVERYONE ELSE CATCHES UP... PLUS THESE LEAGUES ARE BASICALLY ONE WINNER TAKES ALL..... AND SJU WOULD NOW BECOME THE SACRIFICIAL LAMB,SCHOOLS LIKE CAROLINA USES TO START ITS SEASON....EVEN IF YOU HAD A GREAT TEAM,THE REFS AND ROY WILLIAMS,
WOULD STEAL THE GAME...THATS WHY NJIT VICTORY AGST MICHIGAN IS SO RARE..WHILE I WASN'T HAPPY WITH MULLIN REPLACING LAVIN WHO HAD PROSTATE CANCER WOES... MULLIN SHOULD GET SEVERAL MORE YEARS EASY.. HE KNOWS THE GAME,AND THINKS STRATEGICALLY....WHERE SJU NEEDS HELPS IS ANOTHER RECRUITER ASSUMING SLICE MONEY IS PAID OFF...AND A GOOD X AND O GAME COACH...HAVING A NEW AL LOBABO IS WOULD HELP..THOUGHT MIKE RICE COULD BE THAT MAN..SJU SHOULD STAY WHERE IT IS... EVENTUALLY,THEY AND DEPAUL SHOULD CLIMB OUT OF THE SNAKE PIT...BUT IT WONT BE EASY AND MULLIN NEEDS MORE TIME..
 
Well since everyone's favorite coaching candidate is in the A10 how about there? For argument's sake.
Click to expand...

You are the "master" man! :)

[attachment]image.jpeg[/attachment]
Click to expand...

I get the $ issue. But for purely basketball reasons I personally wouldn't have a problem if we dropped down a conference. Didn't A10 get 3 bids last year or year before? The legit question is would we be able to recruit? Well we used to say the Garden was a draw and now it isn't. For the type of kids we should be looking at I don't think a slight drop in conference should make a difference. And I do think it is pretty funny that everybody wants a coach in the A10 but when someone brings up a move there some of those same people call it blasphemy.. Hey if the original BE teams(Cuse, Uconn, Pitt, BC) were still here I would never even entertain it. But again for me it is not the same.

The bottom line for me is if we stay or go I think we need to embrace that we are not a power team. If Mullin doesn't work out, I would like to get a solid mid major coach who runs an offense that is built around the three. And he should recruit accordingly. For too many years are coaches wait around for a Hail Mary recruit to come here and then we are just scrambling to put together a balanced roster
Click to expand...

I don’t know why it’s “pretty funny that everybody wants a coach in the A10 but when someone brings up a move there some of those same people call it blasphemy.” I don’t know who this A10 Coach but as one who called moving to a lower conference blasphemy in another thread, you are comparing apples to oranges. A lot of good coaches of major programs have gotten their head coaching starts in the lower levels of college basketball. They cut their teeth their and move on, sometimes going from minor to mid-major to major. Nothing wrong with that. Start off in the minors, climb the ladder get to the majors. That’s a helluva difference than dropping your biggest franchise down that level, losing fan support, tv deal, potential fundraising and a whole lot more.

One thing is the same though, after being in the majors, who wants to go to the minors which is exactly what we would be doing as a program.

Northwestern for many, many,many years was the bottom feeder in Big 10 football and basketball. Football became competitive and they have had recent success in basketball, making the NCAA tournament for the first time ever last year. They never dropped to a lower conference due to their lack of success.
Click to expand...

So now we are the Northwestern of the BE. How is that for a recruiting tool? No one is saying we have to or should move. At least I am not. I am only saying that I think having a conversation about it is ok. I get being angry about the MAAC. But a slight down grade wouldn't offend me. I bet that if someone would have told you 10 or 15 years ago we were only going to play a handful of Garden games, that would upset people on here. Honestly that one bothers me. But I understand it.
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I didn't say we were the Northwestern of the BE (that would be DePaul and not just because of their geographic location) but used them as an example. While exploring options are always good, but this one is one those that gets brought up and is and should get shot down quickly. No one should want to be downgraded and the options of downgrading are not appealing at all, not even the A10 who likes to make some noise every few years on how they are as good as the Big East when they feel they have more than three teams that have a shot at exposure only to see the emperor is wearing no clothes.
 
First off, after 6 years of Norm, there were serious whispers even in coaching circles as to whether or not it made sense for SJU to drop from the Big East.

Then again, going all the way back to the Mark Aguirre and Ray Meyers days, DePaul has been putrid.

Until the Andrew Gaze days, Seton Hall was such a doormat, they were good for a sure 2 wins when we played them.

On the other hand, programs like Creighton, Xavier, Butler all appear to be elevated or solidified once they gained entry to the Big East. Yea, I know Butler got to the finals before then, but it was as a mid major.

Locally, Fordham, Hoftstra, Manhattan, even St. Peter's once had runs at being competitive on a national stage. Once the days of big conferences took hold, they have all faded out of view for the most part.

Anyone who thinks stepping down a level we will run rampant over a conference, and then getting automatic conference bids year after year are mistaken. Even then, with less talented players, a 12-16 seed almost always spells a sure first round exit.

If there is one guy of the 6 coaches we've had in the post Lou era who takes losing to heart, who will simply not accept anything less than teams in the NCAA, I think we have him now. The obvious frustration is understandable. Losing like this isn't fun, not even a little bit. But I also don't think we are a laughing stock. People I know that follow college hoops closely know we've had a tough break with Lovett, and friends of teams we already played, like at Nova and Missouri, thought we gave them really tough games and have a good future.

Those of you who propose that withholding your season ticket money will cause St. John's to change directions are sadly mistaken. Certainly you are buying a product, and if you aren't happy aren't obligated to buy. Just remember though, that less than 15 years ago a big donor pulled a multimillion dollar pledge when he didn't get his way.
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Good post.
 
While we are at it, I think SJU should drop out of the Catholic Church altogether.

If you think we are pissed, imagine what St. John himself is feeling knowing his good name is being sullied by the basketball program.
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Actually, biblically, St. John was the only apostle not to get martyred. Our team is making up for that.
 
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