Johnnies Season Preview Piece

[quote="Happy" post=400984][quote="SJU85" post=400961][quote="Happy" post=400938][quote="Mike Zaun" post=400937][quote="SI1996" post=400932][quote="Happy" post=400931][quote="Mike Zaun" post=400930]Panther, not true. Just false...we never finished top 4 outright in Big East under Lavin and Mullin and we got tons of 4-5 star kids between that period. I know we can say look how that turned out, and rightfully so, but doesn't mean we won't need better recruiting if we want to be relevant again. The season hasn't started yet, not sure why this is so taboo to mention. It's going to be a real concern until proven otherwise because that's how it works. You can't just throw something obviously untrue objectively like that out there and then say it's "repetitive" when you get a rebuttal to it.

Regarding Riley, you may be right. Pinzon was a very nice pickup IMO too. But time will tell. It may not have to be Cuffe, but eventually CMA needs that signature recruit. Let's hope it happens sooner than later.[/quote]

Would Jordan Riley have been that signature recruit for you?[/quote] We could have gotten Kepnang and the complaint would be how come we don't have a top 15 recruit. We could finish third and the complaint will be why not second. Could finish 20-11 and complain that we should be 21-10. The response will always be some sort of passive aggressive.. yeah that's great but..[/quote]

Yes he would have. Recruiting is about more than just ensuring you get good players or hoping they turn out good at least. But it's also about hype and getting the ball rolling with other major recruits. Paultz just alluded to Harkless who pretty much set the tone for Lavin. He was the first domino to fall I believe. So you can also get momentum from getting the bigger name kids nationally. There's a real chance that Pinzon will be better, but Pinzon is less athletic IMO and at least at this stage from what I've seen, a worse 3 pt shooter than Riley. I believe Pinzon had 1 game where he was red hot from 3 which helped his avg, but then the other games were not good 3 pt wise. Potential is there of course for Pinzon to develop a more consistent 3 pt shot.

Implying I will never be satisfied is totally untrue. I have said consistently that once CMA gets a consensus 4 star recruit, I will gleefully acknowledge it and it will be direct evidence that he may be able to get more over time. I don't think we should even target 5*'s at this point unless there's a good chance they want to stay home and/or really want to come here. Otherwise, it's a waste of time IMO, because even if we get one, they are likely 1 and done. I'd rather the Nova model where you get some solid 3's you coach up to 4 level for consistency and experience...then occasionally get a major recruit to throw into the mix. I have no concerns with CMA getting the solid 3's he can possibly coach into 4's...but we will need some 4's out of HS to be difference makers in a conference like this. Find me a team in a conference that routinely recruited at the bottom, yet routinely made the tourney and routinely competed for top 3 in their conference. Doubt you can.

The definition of success at this point that would make me very satisfied is this:

1. CMA gets us to be a regular tourney team (about 60% of the time) and I don't care how we do in NCAA's for now.
2. CMA gets a consensus 4 star recruit (3's the rest of the time are fine) and the ability to land one every 2-3 yrs.
3. CMA has us finishing in the top half of the conference every year (top 5).

Those are not wild expectations, especially if he's really a great coach. And I would be thrilled with them.[/quote]

I asked you if Riley would have been that signature recruit and you did answer yes which is great but I can tell you that as of right now that Rafael is the better player. Your statement of " Recruiting is about more than just ensuring you get good players or hoping they turn out good " only reinforces my stance as Jordan Riley has the potential to be a better player than Rafael but just doesn't have it all working at this time. Just simply say that you like a player better because you think he has more stars or hype and leave it at that because if Riley is the signature recruit that you crave ..then congratulate our staff for getting our first signature recruit in Rafael :)[/quote]

Respect your and other's opinions I have heard comparing Riley and Pinzon. Having seen both several times, I like Riley better but I have been wrong before.[/quote]

Not a stretch to think Riley is the better player because he does have jaw dropping athleticism . I happen to like Rafael a little better due to the little things he does on the court. Incidentally I have also been wrong before and if you ask my wife she will tell you the same :) :) :)[/quote]

If you would ask mine she would say occasionally her husband is right. :)
 
[quote="Anthony Mattia" post=400782]Apparently McGriff does not even warrant mentioning...[/quote]

Was thinking the same thing about McGriff
 
[quote="redmannorth" post=400991][quote="Happy" post=400984][quote="SJU85" post=400961][quote="Happy" post=400938][quote="Mike Zaun" post=400937][quote="SI1996" post=400932][quote="Happy" post=400931][quote="Mike Zaun" post=400930]Panther, not true. Just false...we never finished top 4 outright in Big East under Lavin and Mullin and we got tons of 4-5 star kids between that period. I know we can say look how that turned out, and rightfully so, but doesn't mean we won't need better recruiting if we want to be relevant again. The season hasn't started yet, not sure why this is so taboo to mention. It's going to be a real concern until proven otherwise because that's how it works. You can't just throw something obviously untrue objectively like that out there and then say it's "repetitive" when you get a rebuttal to it.

Regarding Riley, you may be right. Pinzon was a very nice pickup IMO too. But time will tell. It may not have to be Cuffe, but eventually CMA needs that signature recruit. Let's hope it happens sooner than later.[/quote]

Would Jordan Riley have been that signature recruit for you?[/quote] We could have gotten Kepnang and the complaint would be how come we don't have a top 15 recruit. We could finish third and the complaint will be why not second. Could finish 20-11 and complain that we should be 21-10. The response will always be some sort of passive aggressive.. yeah that's great but..[/quote]

Yes he would have. Recruiting is about more than just ensuring you get good players or hoping they turn out good at least. But it's also about hype and getting the ball rolling with other major recruits. Paultz just alluded to Harkless who pretty much set the tone for Lavin. He was the first domino to fall I believe. So you can also get momentum from getting the bigger name kids nationally. There's a real chance that Pinzon will be better, but Pinzon is less athletic IMO and at least at this stage from what I've seen, a worse 3 pt shooter than Riley. I believe Pinzon had 1 game where he was red hot from 3 which helped his avg, but then the other games were not good 3 pt wise. Potential is there of course for Pinzon to develop a more consistent 3 pt shot.

Implying I will never be satisfied is totally untrue. I have said consistently that once CMA gets a consensus 4 star recruit, I will gleefully acknowledge it and it will be direct evidence that he may be able to get more over time. I don't think we should even target 5*'s at this point unless there's a good chance they want to stay home and/or really want to come here. Otherwise, it's a waste of time IMO, because even if we get one, they are likely 1 and done. I'd rather the Nova model where you get some solid 3's you coach up to 4 level for consistency and experience...then occasionally get a major recruit to throw into the mix. I have no concerns with CMA getting the solid 3's he can possibly coach into 4's...but we will need some 4's out of HS to be difference makers in a conference like this. Find me a team in a conference that routinely recruited at the bottom, yet routinely made the tourney and routinely competed for top 3 in their conference. Doubt you can.

The definition of success at this point that would make me very satisfied is this:

1. CMA gets us to be a regular tourney team (about 60% of the time) and I don't care how we do in NCAA's for now.
2. CMA gets a consensus 4 star recruit (3's the rest of the time are fine) and the ability to land one every 2-3 yrs.
3. CMA has us finishing in the top half of the conference every year (top 5).

Those are not wild expectations, especially if he's really a great coach. And I would be thrilled with them.[/quote]

I asked you if Riley would have been that signature recruit and you did answer yes which is great but I can tell you that as of right now that Rafael is the better player. Your statement of " Recruiting is about more than just ensuring you get good players or hoping they turn out good " only reinforces my stance as Jordan Riley has the potential to be a better player than Rafael but just doesn't have it all working at this time. Just simply say that you like a player better because you think he has more stars or hype and leave it at that because if Riley is the signature recruit that you crave ..then congratulate our staff for getting our first signature recruit in Rafael :)[/quote]

Respect your and other's opinions I have heard comparing Riley and Pinzon. Having seen both several times, I like Riley better but I have been wrong before.[/quote]

Not a stretch to think Riley is the better player because he does have jaw dropping athleticism . I happen to like Rafael a little better due to the little things he does on the court. Incidentally I have also been wrong before and if you ask my wife she will tell you the same :) :) :)[/quote]

If you would ask mine she would say occasionally her husband is right. :)[/quote]

You're better than me. The very rare times that my wife says I'm right, I record the date, time and what I said that she agreed with to save for posterity.

It hasn't happened many times in 48 + years of marriage.
 
I've already moved on from Riley. I would have loved to have had him here. And I was prepared to root for him in every game he wasn't playing against us. But then he went and seemingly used the hometown team as a smokescreen, which was really lame. He should have dropped us when he dropped Rutgters.

What I know of Pinzon is limited to highlights, but he looks pretty damn smooth to me. Like someone (AMase?) said recently, if he's really 6'7" it's a game changer. I'm really excited to see him and Posh on floor together in the future. Another smooth guy with size out there with the two of them could make us pretty special on offense, in my opinion. I'll bring the bag to Rock Lloyd's son if people want to contribute. :lol:
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=400930]Panther, not true. Just false...we never finished top 4 outright in Big East under Lavin and Mullin and we got tons of 4-5 star kids between that period. I know we can say look how that turned out, and rightfully so, but doesn't mean we won't need better recruiting if we want to be relevant again. The season hasn't started yet, not sure why this is so taboo to mention. It's going to be a real concern until proven otherwise because that's how it works. You can't just throw something obviously untrue objectively like that out there and then say it's "repetitive" when you get a rebuttal to it.

Regarding Riley, you may be right. Pinzon was a very nice pickup IMO too. But time will tell. It may not have to be Cuffe, but eventually CMA needs that signature recruit. Let's hope it happens sooner than later.[/quote]

Seriously I'm not looking to stir up anything. But when you get a chance. Can you list out the 4 and 5 star kids we got under Lavin and Mullin? I know we got some, including a bunch who either never made it to campus or where a headache when they did. Im just curious to see what it all amounted to.
 
[quote="Room112" post=401011][quote="Mike Zaun" post=400930]Panther, not true. Just false...we never finished top 4 outright in Big East under Lavin and Mullin and we got tons of 4-5 star kids between that period. I know we can say look how that turned out, and rightfully so, but doesn't mean we won't need better recruiting if we want to be relevant again. The season hasn't started yet, not sure why this is so taboo to mention. It's going to be a real concern until proven otherwise because that's how it works. You can't just throw something obviously untrue objectively like that out there and then say it's "repetitive" when you get a rebuttal to it.

Regarding Riley, you may be right. Pinzon was a very nice pickup IMO too. But time will tell. It may not have to be Cuffe, but eventually CMA needs that signature recruit. Let's hope it happens sooner than later.[/quote]

Seriously I'm not looking to stir up anything. But when you get a chance. Can you list out the 4 and 5 star kids we got under Lavin and Mullin? I know we got some, including a bunch who either never made it to campus or where a headache when they did. Im just curious to see what it all amounted to.[/quote]

If memory serves me well we had 2 five stars under Lavin being Pointer and Rysheed. DLo, Obekpa, were 4 stars and Garrett may also have been as he was top 100 player. I am not counting transfers as Jamal Branch was highly rated also. Having said that Lavin recruiting his last 3 years out of 5 was a disaster. Rysheed did not at all make us a better team and we would have been much better playing Branch instead of Rysheed, with DLo and Green.
Mullin got Ponds who was a four star player as well as Lovett who was also a four star player with a big assist from Lavin and 2 very highly rated jucos as well as highly rated transfers.
CMA on the other hand is filling the roster with high caliber 3 stars who are not delusional as to their abilities and are excellent kids. Time will tell which of the three coaches will have the better record at SJU. My money is clearly on CMA.
 
redmannorth wrote:
If memory serves me well we had 2 five stars under Lavin being Pointer and Rysheed. DLo, Obekpa, were 4 stars and Garrett may also have been as he was top 100 player. I am not counting transfers as Jamal Branch was highly rated also. Having said that Lavin recruiting his last 3 years out of 5 was a disaster. Rysheed did not at all make us a better team and we would have been much better playing Branch instead of Rysheed, with DLo and Green.
Mullin got Ponds who was a four star player as well as Lovett who was also a four star player with a big assist from Lavin and 2 very highly rated jucos as well as highly rated transfers.
CMA on the other hand is filling the roster with high caliber 3 stars who are not delusional as to their abilities and are excellent kids. Time will tell which of the three coaches will have the better record at SJU. My money is clearly on CMA.

Lavin also had Harkless & Sampson who were at least 4 stars.
 
Let's not forget the very forgettable Nurideen Lindsay. I'd say he was at least 4 star.
 
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[quote="redmannorth" post=401016][quote="Room112" post=401011][quote="Mike Zaun" post=400930]Panther, not true. Just false...we never finished top 4 outright in Big East under Lavin and Mullin and we got tons of 4-5 star kids between that period. I know we can say look how that turned out, and rightfully so, but doesn't mean we won't need better recruiting if we want to be relevant again. The season hasn't started yet, not sure why this is so taboo to mention. It's going to be a real concern until proven otherwise because that's how it works. You can't just throw something obviously untrue objectively like that out there and then say it's "repetitive" when you get a rebuttal to it.

Regarding Riley, you may be right. Pinzon was a very nice pickup IMO too. But time will tell. It may not have to be Cuffe, but eventually CMA needs that signature recruit. Let's hope it happens sooner than later.[/quote]

Seriously I'm not looking to stir up anything. But when you get a chance. Can you list out the 4 and 5 star kids we got under Lavin and Mullin? I know we got some, including a bunch who either never made it to campus or where a headache when they did. Im just curious to see what it all amounted to.[/quote]

If memory serves me well we had 2 five stars under Lavin being Pointer and Rysheed. DLo, Obekpa, were 4 stars and Garrett may also have been as he was top 100 player. I am not counting transfers as Jamal Branch was highly rated also. Having said that Lavin recruiting his last 3 years out of 5 was a disaster. Rysheed did not at all make us a better team and we would have been much better playing Branch instead of Rysheed, with DLo and Green.
Mullin got Ponds who was a four star player as well as Lovett who was also a four star player with a big assist from Lavin and 2 very highly rated jucos as well as highly rated transfers.
CMA on the other hand is filling the roster with high caliber 3 stars who are not delusional as to their abilities and are excellent kids. Time will tell which of the three coaches will have the better record at SJU. My money is clearly on CMA.[/quote]

Rysheed had issues, but there is no scenario by which we would have been better, let alone much better, playing Branch over him.
 
[quote="Room112" post=401011][quote="Mike Zaun" post=400930]Panther, not true. Just false...we never finished top 4 outright in Big East under Lavin and Mullin and we got tons of 4-5 star kids between that period. I know we can say look how that turned out, and rightfully so, but doesn't mean we won't need better recruiting if we want to be relevant again. The season hasn't started yet, not sure why this is so taboo to mention. It's going to be a real concern until proven otherwise because that's how it works. You can't just throw something obviously untrue objectively like that out there and then say it's "repetitive" when you get a rebuttal to it.

Regarding Riley, you may be right. Pinzon was a very nice pickup IMO too. But time will tell. It may not have to be Cuffe, but eventually CMA needs that signature recruit. Let's hope it happens sooner than later.[/quote]

Seriously I'm not looking to stir up anything. But when you get a chance. Can you list out the 4 and 5 star kids we got under Lavin and Mullin? I know we got some, including a bunch who either never made it to campus or where a headache when they did. Im just curious to see what it all amounted to.[/quote] Ponds last year we had him, Simon, Heron, LJ. Keita as a redshirt. That’s 3 4 stars and 2 5 stars. Problem was we had no center nor depth.
 
[quote="NCJohnnie" post=401017]redmannorth wrote:
If memory serves me well we had 2 five stars under Lavin being Pointer and Rysheed. DLo, Obekpa, were 4 stars and Garrett may also have been as he was top 100 player. I am not counting transfers as Jamal Branch was highly rated also. Having said that Lavin recruiting his last 3 years out of 5 was a disaster. Rysheed did not at all make us a better team and we would have been much better playing Branch instead of Rysheed, with DLo and Green.
Mullin got Ponds who was a four star player as well as Lovett who was also a four star player with a big assist from Lavin and 2 very highly rated jucos as well as highly rated transfers.
CMA on the other hand is filling the roster with high caliber 3 stars who are not delusional as to their abilities and are excellent kids. Time will tell which of the three coaches will have the better record at SJU. My money is clearly on CMA.

Lavin also had Harkless & Sampson who were at least 4 stars.[/quote]

Correct , I prefaced if memory serves me correctly. I guess it doesn’t. :(
 
Forget memory. Folks in this thread referencing times they were right. I don't remember the last time I had any (rights that is).
 
I coach at a catholic school on long island and have seen both play. I would say right now riley is ahead of pinzon in talent. He is just so athletic and has such an easy time scoring and getting to the rim. I do feel like it will be more difficult for him to translate that to the Big east as quickly as PInzon because of the competition they play in high school. LUHI plays a much tougher schedule throughout the year and in tournaments around the country. Riley can score at will on sheer talent and athleticism, but i feel pinzon may be the better program player. This is just coming as an opinion from someone who's seen both in high school.Wish we got them both but they also both will be key members of their respective programs.
 
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[quote="TheArtest15" post=401050]I coach at a catholic school on long island and have seen both play. [/quote...........
=======

Hey "TheArtest15"
Don't be a stranger. Your future contributions to the site will be welcomed.
Regards.
 
[quote="TheArtest15" post=401050]I coach at a catholic school on long island and have seen both play. I would say right now riley is ahead of pinzon in talent. He is just so athletic and has such an easy time scoring and getting to the rim. I do feel like it will be more difficult for him to translate that to the Big east as quickly as PInzon because of the competition they play in high school. LUHI plays a much tougher schedule throughout the year and in tournaments around the country. Riley can score at will on sheer talent and athleticism, but i feel pinzon may be the better program player. This is just coming as an opinion from someone who's seen both in high school.Wish we got them both but they also both will be key members of their respective programs.[/quote]

Thanks for your insights. The way that the Rileys handled the recruitment process, especially down the stretch,
left a lot our fans with a bad taste in their mouth. Pinzon, OTOH, seemed to have handled his recruitment process very well. Any sense on Pinzon's demeanor and maturity level? The kid really seems smart and grounded.
 
[quote="Monte" post=401054][quote="TheArtest15" post=401050]I coach at a catholic school on long island and have seen both play. I would say right now riley is ahead of pinzon in talent. He is just so athletic and has such an easy time scoring and getting to the rim. I do feel like it will be more difficult for him to translate that to the Big east as quickly as PInzon because of the competition they play in high school. LUHI plays a much tougher schedule throughout the year and in tournaments around the country. Riley can score at will on sheer talent and athleticism, but i feel pinzon may be the better program player. This is just coming as an opinion from someone who's seen both in high school.Wish we got them both but they also both will be key members of their respective programs.[/quote]

Thanks for your insights. The way that the Rileys handled the recruitment process, especially down the stretch,
left a lot our fans with a bad taste in their mouth. Pinzon, OTOH, seemed to have handled his recruitment process very well. Any sense on Pinzon's demeanor and maturity level? The kid really seems smart and grounded.[/quote]

No problem. Funny you say that. I spoke to a friend of mine who's involved with the NY RENS AAU team as an assistant coach. Few months ago when St. John's was recruiting Riley I asked him about him and he told me "he was good, but he felt like he wasn't getting enough love from the other player son the team so he would get frustrated." Also told me that he came to the team later in the season and didn't know the offense all that well. But he did say that he was a solid young man, and strong as hell. Said he has massive hands and can dunk on anyone and will always try. Not a great shooter, decent mid range game but needs work. Also has a very quick first step. Said he really locks in on defense and takes it personal. Said didn't get as much time cause of Kuminga on that team. My friend said he changed AAU teams a few times he believes.

As for Pinzon who I've seen more live. He seems to be very mature and relentless. He's a smart player and is a good distributor as well. I think he will be a really good fit here in this system.
 
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