I don't care about blame but I do try and face reality; modern recruiting for the very good players starts 3-5 years before they can even sign an LOI. We were left with an empty roster, but possibly more importantly, no to very, very few players we were "on". Relationships with local AAU programs and high schools needed to be built because they were non-existent; that has happened but to what success remains to be seen. Obviously most of the fan base here wants success now and IMO that is just not realistic. We have an exceedingly erratic team with virtually no upperclassmen leadership made palatable by the offensive prowess of the backcourt. The Catch-22 we are in is that in today's game your better players can possibly only spend 1-2 years in school of which we are already hearing rumors regarding. Like it or not this was a very daunting undertaking and I know Mullin understood the reality of the situation much better than our fan base. I really don't have expectations of a time frame because I would not be surprised if it is year 4-5 before we have a legitimate tourney level team,
Is There One Recruit?
- Thread starter Ray Morgan
- Start date
I don't care about blame but I do try and face reality; modern recruiting for the very good players starts 3-5 years before they can even sign an LOI. We were left with an empty roster, but possibly more importantly, no to very, very few players we were "on". Relationships with local AAU programs and high schools needed to be built because they were non-existent; that has happened but to what success remains to be seen. Obviously most of the fan base here wants success now and IMO that is just not realistic. We have an exceedingly erratic team with virtually no upperclassmen leadership made palatable by the offensive prowess of the backcourt. The Catch-22 we are in is that in today's game your better players can possibly only spend 1-2 years in school of which we are already hearing rumors regarding. Like it or not this was a very daunting undertaking and I know Mullin understood the reality of the situation much better than our fan base. I really don't have expectations of a time frame because I would not be surprised if it is year 4-5 before we have a legitimate tourney level team,
Ray Morgan
Well-known member
Plenty are blaming Mullin already. There is after all a "Fire Mullin" thread on this board already. There are no guarantees that Mullin does what the last 5 coaches couldn't do. If he doesn't get much better players, and doesn't get them to work together on both ends of the floor, he will be another asterisk.
I'm thinking that Naz Reid makes or breaks the Mullin era. Reid to Mullin may be like Briscoe to Lavin. The Looie days of having one star and 4 support players is over. Too many teams with too many deep and talented rosters these days. The best Golden State got was to the second round of the playoffs, and that was with 2 hall of fame players and a hall of fame coach. I love that Mullin has brought SJU into the modern era by recruiting shooters. Now he needs to get some dynamic bigs. Reid is the only big we seem to be in the mix for in 2018. The one big for 2017 is so iffy that our most knowledgeable poster is pessimistic on him suiting up next season.
Right after you stop bringing up Norm.
The reason Mullin went to Saint John's is because Louie started recruiting him when he was in the eighth grade. Mullin and company have been recruiting for a year and a half. It's not his fault he hasn't recruited any upperclassmen, it's Father Time's.
we are sju
Active member
Think it just the mentality in College basketball. Looking for quick fixes. And in fairness even Chris Mullin wouldn't be given the time to properly build a program.
Ray Morgan
Well-known member
Just saw the new Zach Brown thread. So Naz Reid becomes a bigger recruit than he was an hour ago. Need Moses Brown as well. Wonder if we have a realistic chance with him.
we are sju
Active member
That is not going to happen.
Again I said no one could have foreseen Yakwe and Sima being this bad. But even if they played at same level as last season who in our frontcourt is what you would call a shot maker? Which is why most of us harped on Jones loss. Not saying you needed superstars, but you def needed something better than we have.
Current frontcourt is worse than anything even Norm trotted out there. Though in fairness Jarvis was nice enough to leave Norm Hamilton and I guess Hamilton wasn't horny in Pittsburgh.
we are sju
Active member
I blame him / staff for Amar over Jones and for not getting something better than we have. JUCO, transfer, alien,something. Again I guess they thought Sima / Yakwe would be much, much, much better.
Ray Morgan
Well-known member
This unfortunately is the normal course of things at this program, and has been for many years. What happened under Looie is dead. The new normal is to leave everything in shambles for the next guy. Sort of like how the presidency of this country works.
Ray Morgan
Well-known member
Some franchises, like the Cleveland Browns and NY Jets, just have it. Perhaps once every so often they have a decent season, but most years they trot out there and take their lumps. It becomes a culture. That same culture has been going on here since the firing of Jarvis. Mullin era starting off the same.
Our particular brand of failure is highlighted by an empty roster, a frantic effort to reload, and several years of futility. By year 4, those who have survived the losing, bolstered by a few good roster additions, sneak into the dance and then are quickly blown out.
The problem with the reload, as Fun pointed out on a recent thread, is that you have to throw multiple freshman to the wolves instead of having them learn without excessive pressure. Like Sgt. Elias told Barnes in Platoon: "Maybe the kid would still be alive if he had a chance to learn something".
Instead of learning under talented and seasoned upperclassman while basking in a winning environment, our freshman get their heads pounded on a nearly nightly basis. Some, Like D Lo, are pushed to the point of madness. Some transfer, some go pro (perhaps too soon), and some manage to survive.
It has to be terribly frustrating for everyone on the roster. Losing breeds discontent, and the roster becomes filled with malcontents.Four years go by, and those that remain may smell the dance for a fleeting moment. Then it's time to reload again, right after changing coaches for the umpteenth time since Looie's retirement. I just hope that our young team is mentally tough, and waits for reinforcements to arrive. Otherwise, in 3 more years, it will be fire the coach, reload, stink, repeat. Just how the last 2 coaches with 5 year contracts did it. I'm curious how many posters are confident that this time it will be different. I'm not giving up, but truly believe that Matt A needs at least to sign 2 ready for prime time recruits for the 2018 season, and that major progress needs to be seen next season in the won-loss column.
Our particular brand of failure is highlighted by an empty roster, a frantic effort to reload, and several years of futility. By year 4, those who have survived the losing, bolstered by a few good roster additions, sneak into the dance and then are quickly blown out.
The problem with the reload, as Fun pointed out on a recent thread, is that you have to throw multiple freshman to the wolves instead of having them learn without excessive pressure. Like Sgt. Elias told Barnes in Platoon: "Maybe the kid would still be alive if he had a chance to learn something".
Instead of learning under talented and seasoned upperclassman while basking in a winning environment, our freshman get their heads pounded on a nearly nightly basis. Some, Like D Lo, are pushed to the point of madness. Some transfer, some go pro (perhaps too soon), and some manage to survive.
It has to be terribly frustrating for everyone on the roster. Losing breeds discontent, and the roster becomes filled with malcontents.Four years go by, and those that remain may smell the dance for a fleeting moment. Then it's time to reload again, right after changing coaches for the umpteenth time since Looie's retirement. I just hope that our young team is mentally tough, and waits for reinforcements to arrive. Otherwise, in 3 more years, it will be fire the coach, reload, stink, repeat. Just how the last 2 coaches with 5 year contracts did it. I'm curious how many posters are confident that this time it will be different. I'm not giving up, but truly believe that Matt A needs at least to sign 2 ready for prime time recruits for the 2018 season, and that major progress needs to be seen next season in the won-loss column.
Did this really need its own thread? Given that your "solution" is that we need 2 recruits, is there a reason you didn't put this post on your (very similar) "is there one recruit" thread?
I'm just wondering if perhaps we can confine similar strands of negativity to one thread instead of starting multiple threads to say essentially the same thing.
Thanks
I'm just wondering if perhaps we can confine similar strands of negativity to one thread instead of starting multiple threads to say essentially the same thing.
Thanks
Ray Morgan
Well-known member
Understood. Bad losses bring out the worst in many of us, myself included. I have no solution, other than to say coach needs to bring in mentally tough and stable kids to ride out the storm that rebuilding brings. The need to reload quickly brings the temptation to recruit the opposite, as happened with Obekpa and Jordan. Brown looks like another one was on the way until yesterday. I'm just a fan, and I'm frustrated. The players feel the losses times a thousand. I hope they are more patient than the media and fanbase.
We have to give Mullin more time. He inherited an expansion team. Like Fun said our young guys were thrown to the fire w no good upperclassman to learn from. We also do not have a real BE caliber bench. I think Mullin and co. are aware of the concept of reloading instead of rebuilding, but it takes time. Amar gets me mad , he is in the game for 10 seconds and launches an NBA 3. Freud also has looked like a bust, although young.. We have 2 BE players coming in. If we don't get any major defections and can get a JC or grad transfer big we could be competitive next year and build from there. But I'm not going to deny,
w a few exceptions , this has been a tough year to watch. I also think Sima and Yakwes lack of progress caught the staff by suprise. Williams looks like his few good games were a fluke also.
w a few exceptions , this has been a tough year to watch. I also think Sima and Yakwes lack of progress caught the staff by suprise. Williams looks like his few good games were a fluke also.
I understand that this is a complete rebuild from scratch and that Coach inherited absolutely nothing. I understand that we are a young team and with that comes inconsistencies and a lot of ups and downs. I understand that there are times where we have scoring droughts and nights where the shots do not fall or we commit turnovers due to inexperience.
What I do not get is:
- a lack of fundamentals on both sides of the ball. I would have figured that from a staff of primarily NBA backgrounds that the one thing we would have is strong fundamentals and solid sets.
- a lack of energy and effort and an apparent lack of commitment to the basic principles of defense.
- a lack of understanding of where our shots should come from, who should be taking them and what each player should or should not be doing to create those shots.
This is the part that disappoints and concerns me.
What I do not get is:
- a lack of fundamentals on both sides of the ball. I would have figured that from a staff of primarily NBA backgrounds that the one thing we would have is strong fundamentals and solid sets.
- a lack of energy and effort and an apparent lack of commitment to the basic principles of defense.
- a lack of understanding of where our shots should come from, who should be taking them and what each player should or should not be doing to create those shots.
This is the part that disappoints and concerns me.
Ray Morgan
Well-known member
All of your concerns are a definite by-product of too little experience coupled with a talent gap. Throw in frustration and you have games like yesterday. I think many people underestimate how getting beat consistently wears on young players. We have been in rebuilding mode for an awful long time. Hard to break the pattern. Good news is that there is plenty of playing time to offer to high level recruits. Rebuilding is harder now than in Looie's day. One great player and 4 role players and you could compete back then. Now, you need a team full of good players. Until the 80's, you were lucky to have one televised college game a week, with some parts of the country showing professional bowling instead. Every school wants a piece of that TV money, and the bigger NCAA fields means more schools competing for top talent than years ago.
What I'd love to see is a consistent theme of who this team is. Have an identity. Stick with it. Do a couple of things really well and focus on that with an emphasis upon out working the opponent
KISS Principleo what you do.
Then you should be happy, because we're already there. We play no defense really well, and we jack up ill-advised shots like experts.
I jest, I jest.
In all seriousness I do think I see the beginning of a consistent identity, or at least what the staff wants that to be. Whether they can get there and whether it will be successful are open questions. My guess (there are no guarantees here) is that the answer to both questions will be yes, but it will take at least another year.
What I'd love to see is a consistent theme of who this team is. Have an identity. Stick with it. Do a couple of things really well and focus on that with an emphasis upon out working the opponent
KISS Principle
Then you should be happy, because we're already there. We play no defense really well, and we jack up ill-advised shots like experts.
I jest, I jest.
In all seriousness I do think I see the beginning of a consistent identity, or at least what the staff wants that to be. Whether they can get there and whether it will be successful are open questions. My guess (there are no guarantees here) is that the answer to both questions will be yes, but it will take at least another year.
What Identity would that be . Some teams are noted for their Defense,others for their offensive ability still others for their rebounding or exceptional hustle or foul shooting oe passing I have not seen ant identity other than loses blowouts or no goals accomplished I support this team but has of late become a realist The money spent foe HC assistants etc does not so far warrant the product which we see Last yr we won one BE game so far 2 hope it does not stay at 2
When I see glimpses of what can be I am always confronted by the where's the beef question. I first learned to love basketball watching the old Russell Cousy et al Celtics and do not forget in the midst of that flying circus that won more championships than any other team was Jungle Jim Loscutoff. The only two guys with the heft to set real picks for STJ are Amar and Williams and both are limited players. Up against the kind of size we are seeing in-conference, if the 3's are not falling forcing the opponent out of the middle, we don't have the parts to space the floor on offense and box out on defense.