Is St. John's leaving Manhattan?

[Ben]

I know the school would probably never do that because it wants to be known as exceptionally diverse, but it's something that needs to be done if we truly want to be a top 75 school.

The thing is the school doesn't want to be nor plans to be a Top 75 school. We have a niche that works. The academics should get better under a new administration but I think being in the 100-125 range of overall undergraduate schools is a realistic goal to set. At our core we are still a commuter school with limited residential space compared to our overall student population and in a city that has schools like NYU, Columbia and Fordham I don't think we have the ammunition to compete as a full residential school that will attract top students from around the country. With that being said there is no reason for our pharmacy school, law school and business school not to be top-notch and in the top 50 of their respective rankings.

It's nice to have good grad programs, but what really makes schools are strong undergrad programs. We need to demand more. Instead of giving the kid with a 3.0 from Haiti a scholarship and admittance, let's give it to a kid with a 3.7 from Haiti. Academics are more important than diversity. In fact, many of the top schools are not very diverse i.e. Villanova, Providence, Boston College, etc. Lots of schools in the area are very selective and only admit 30-35% of applicants. We let in around half. Why is this? The admissions just seem to be very lax...they seem to want to be seen as the UN instead of having a prestigious academic reputation. I just don't agree with that. I don't see any reason we shouldn't have the expectations of say a Fordham in terms of academics once we get more dorms and it turns into a legit dorming campus. Don't get me wrong, if international students or kids from the inner cities really do have good grade i.e. 3.4+ then by all means let them in. But I know a lot of people who go to SJ are the first in their families to get a college degree. I'd avoid being that kind of school. But hey, this is just me.

 

[STJ11Redmen]

I know the school would probably never do that because it wants to be known as exceptionally diverse, but it's something that needs to be done if we truly want to be a top 75 school.

The thing is the school doesn't want to be nor plans to be a Top 75 school. We have a niche that works. The academics should get better under a new administration but I think being in the 100-125 range of overall undergraduate schools is a realistic goal to set. At our core we are still a commuter school with limited residential space compared to our overall student population and in a city that has schools like NYU, Columbia and Fordham I don't think we have the ammunition to compete as a full residential school that will attract top students from around the country. With that being said there is no reason for our pharmacy school, law school and business school not to be top-notch and in the top 50 of their respective rankings.

It's nice to have good grad programs, but what really makes schools are strong undergrad programs. We need to demand more. Instead of giving the kid with a 3.0 from Haiti a scholarship and admittance, let's give it to a kid with a 3.7 from Haiti. Academics are more important than diversity. In fact, many of the top schools are not very diverse i.e. Villanova, Providence, Boston College, etc. Lots of schools in the area are very selective and only admit 30-35% of applicants. We let in around half. Why is this? The admissions just seem to be very lax...they seem to want to be seen as the UN instead of having a prestigious academic reputation. I just don't agree with that. I don't see any reason we shouldn't have the expectations of say a Fordham in terms of academics once we get more dorms and it turns into a legit dorming campus. Don't get me wrong, if international students or kids from the inner cities really do have good grade i.e. 3.4+ then by all means let them in. But I know a lot of people who go to SJ are the first in their families to get a college degree. I'd avoid being that kind of school. But hey, this is just me.

What I'm saying is why would a top-of-the-class kid go to St. John's when Columbia and NYU are in NYC. We aren't going to compete with those schools ever. Our campus isn't nice enough, we don't have the location or reputation and we certainly don't have the money. I don't want St. John's to be a top school that only admits rich white kids, that's not what St. John's is and it never will or should be. It's easy to say cut admission but to be honest I probably wouldn't have gotten a scholarship to St. John's if it was a school that had the standards of a school like Villanova, which I made but didn't get money from. If every school only admitted kids with great grades and SAT scores then 3/4 of the country would go uneducated.

We have a niche in that we can create scholars out of kids who didn't have the opportunity to because of financial struggles or problems at home. With that being said, we should expand the residential options and cut some of the College of Professional Studies programs that hold the school back and create other programs that have growing employment numbers.

 

[Ben]

I know the school would probably never do that because it wants to be known as exceptionally diverse, but it's something that needs to be done if we truly want to be a top 75 school.

The thing is the school doesn't want to be nor plans to be a Top 75 school. We have a niche that works. The academics should get better under a new administration but I think being in the 100-125 range of overall undergraduate schools is a realistic goal to set. At our core we are still a commuter school with limited residential space compared to our overall student population and in a city that has schools like NYU, Columbia and Fordham I don't think we have the ammunition to compete as a full residential school that will attract top students from around the country. With that being said there is no reason for our pharmacy school, law school and business school not to be top-notch and in the top 50 of their respective rankings.

It's nice to have good grad programs, but what really makes schools are strong undergrad programs. We need to demand more. Instead of giving the kid with a 3.0 from Haiti a scholarship and admittance, let's give it to a kid with a 3.7 from Haiti. Academics are more important than diversity. In fact, many of the top schools are not very diverse i.e. Villanova, Providence, Boston College, etc. Lots of schools in the area are very selective and only admit 30-35% of applicants. We let in around half. Why is this? The admissions just seem to be very lax...they seem to want to be seen as the UN instead of having a prestigious academic reputation. I just don't agree with that. I don't see any reason we shouldn't have the expectations of say a Fordham in terms of academics once we get more dorms and it turns into a legit dorming campus. Don't get me wrong, if international students or kids from the inner cities really do have good grade i.e. 3.4+ then by all means let them in. But I know a lot of people who go to SJ are the first in their families to get a college degree. I'd avoid being that kind of school. But hey, this is just me.

What I'm saying is why would a top-of-the-class kid go to St. John's when Columbia and NYU are in NYC. We aren't going to compete with those schools ever. Our campus isn't nice enough, we don't have the location or reputation and we certainly don't have the money. I don't want St. John's to be a top school that only admits rich white kids, that's not what St. John's is and it never will or should be. It's easy to say cut admission but to be honest I probably wouldn't have gotten a scholarship to St. John's if it was a school that had the standards of a school like Villanova, which I made but didn't get money from. If every school only admitted kids with great grades and SAT scores then 3/4 of the country would go uneducated.

We have a niche in that we can create scholars out of kids who didn't have the opportunity to because of financial struggles or problems at home. With that being said, we should expand the residential options and cut some of the College of Professional Studies programs that hold the school back and create other programs that have growing employment numbers.

What's so bad about having white kids in a school? This is what I'm afraid of. I don't want SJ admitting a student just because he's black or native american from the inner city with 2.8's over a capable white kid from the suburbs with a 3.7. That's part of the reason we have the current problem with low standards. It should be whoever makes the cut makes it and whoever doesn't does not get in. We need blind admissions. Make race irrelevant and focus on GPA and SAT/ACT scores. I think this country sometimes embraces diversity so much so that it gets crammed down people's throats and replaces standards with quotas...just look at the FDNY and how that failed miserably. I think people should be free to associate. If you don't want diversity and want to go to a 95% white school there is nothing wrong with that. Humans are tribal and by in large stay with their own groups anyway. On the other hand, if a student wants to go to a school with people from all over that's just fine too and there's nothing wrong with it. I just don't want the perception to be that diversity is always better than homogeneity because the truth is it's not. Look at Europe...the multiculturalism is tearing it apart as we speak. I am a numbers and results guy, not in the quota business. That may come off as brash and insensitive, but I don't intend to be.

Just because NYU and Columbia are way more prestigious doesn't mean we can't drastically improve our profile. We live in the biggest metro area in the country and one of the biggest if not THE biggest in the world. There are plenty of smart kids to go around. If SJ raises the profile, we can steal kids from Stony Brook, Fordham, etc. I don't think saying let the best man win the spot is a radical thing to say. I think SJ can balance its diversity agenda with say a 40% acceptance rate becoming at least a fairly selective school. Just food for thought here, interesting discussion. I'm interested to see what the other guys think.

 

[STJ FinLaw]

STJ11- I respect your view but strongly disagree. By admitting C students as substantial portion of each class, St. John's is killing opportunities for the top half of its students who become burdened with the school's poor academic reputation. St. John's can still admit underprivileged students, but they should GOOD students. By cutting entering classes by not admitting less than B students, all St. John's students who graduate will benefit (and retention rates would be much higher).

Fordham's undergrad campus is no better or in any better location than St. John's. Look at Syracuse- it is in the middle of nowhere yet has a far better academic reputation. St. John's should cut CPS programs that overlap with other colleges in the University. I also think it should get rid of the Staten Island and Oakdale campuses. Do that, cut entering classes by 10-20%, and use better branding and marketing and St. John's would crack the top 100 in the rankings.

I think the Rome and Paris campuses benefit the University. Having a robust study-abroad program is a big positive for the school and should benefit recruitment.

Selling the Murray Street builiding is a good move. St. John's can lease space in a better location at lower cost, while boosting the endowment at a time of sky-high real estate prices.

 

[STJ11Redmen]

STJ11- I respect your view but strongly disagree. By admitting C students as substantial portion of each class, St. John's is killing opportunities for the top half of its students who become burdened with the school's poor academic reputation. St. John's can still admit underprivileged students, but they should GOOD students. By cutting entering classes by not admitting less than B students, all St. John's students who graduate will benefit (and retention rates would be much higher).

Fordham's undergrad campus is no better or in any better location than St. John's. Look at Syracuse- it is in the middle of nowhere yet has a far better academic reputation. St. John's should cut CPS programs that overlap with other colleges in the University. I also think it should get rid of the Staten Island and Oakdale campuses. Do that, cut entering classes by 10-20%, and use better branding and marketing and St. John's would crack the top 100 in the rankings.

I think the Rome and Paris campuses benefit the University. Having a robust study-abroad program is a big positive for the school and should benefit recruitment.

Selling the Murray Street builiding is a good move. St. John's can lease space in a better location at lower cost, while boosting the endowment at a time of sky-high real estate prices.

No I think we essentially agree. What I meant is the C students who are mainly in CPS have to go. I 100% agree that noone lower than a B should get in. Staten Island and Oakdale going I actually agree with too, they do us no good. What I meant was we will never compete with NYU and Columbia for students so we shouldn't try to get to that level. We need to improve drastically but I don't think trying to become a Top 75 school is in our best interest nor possible.

 

[STJ11Redmen]

I know the school would probably never do that because it wants to be known as exceptionally diverse, but it's something that needs to be done if we truly want to be a top 75 school.

The thing is the school doesn't want to be nor plans to be a Top 75 school. We have a niche that works. The academics should get better under a new administration but I think being in the 100-125 range of overall undergraduate schools is a realistic goal to set. At our core we are still a commuter school with limited residential space compared to our overall student population and in a city that has schools like NYU, Columbia and Fordham I don't think we have the ammunition to compete as a full residential school that will attract top students from around the country. With that being said there is no reason for our pharmacy school, law school and business school not to be top-notch and in the top 50 of their respective rankings.

It's nice to have good grad programs, but what really makes schools are strong undergrad programs. We need to demand more. Instead of giving the kid with a 3.0 from Haiti a scholarship and admittance, let's give it to a kid with a 3.7 from Haiti. Academics are more important than diversity. In fact, many of the top schools are not very diverse i.e. Villanova, Providence, Boston College, etc. Lots of schools in the area are very selective and only admit 30-35% of applicants. We let in around half. Why is this? The admissions just seem to be very lax...they seem to want to be seen as the UN instead of having a prestigious academic reputation. I just don't agree with that. I don't see any reason we shouldn't have the expectations of say a Fordham in terms of academics once we get more dorms and it turns into a legit dorming campus. Don't get me wrong, if international students or kids from the inner cities really do have good grade i.e. 3.4+ then by all means let them in. But I know a lot of people who go to SJ are the first in their families to get a college degree. I'd avoid being that kind of school. But hey, this is just me.

What I'm saying is why would a top-of-the-class kid go to St. John's when Columbia and NYU are in NYC. We aren't going to compete with those schools ever. Our campus isn't nice enough, we don't have the location or reputation and we certainly don't have the money. I don't want St. John's to be a top school that only admits rich white kids, that's not what St. John's is and it never will or should be. It's easy to say cut admission but to be honest I probably wouldn't have gotten a scholarship to St. John's if it was a school that had the standards of a school like Villanova, which I made but didn't get money from. If every school only admitted kids with great grades and SAT scores then 3/4 of the country would go uneducated.

We have a niche in that we can create scholars out of kids who didn't have the opportunity to because of financial struggles or problems at home. With that being said, we should expand the residential options and cut some of the College of Professional Studies programs that hold the school back and create other programs that have growing employment numbers.

What's so bad about having white kids in a school? This is what I'm afraid of. I don't want SJ admitting a student just because he's black or native american from the inner city with 2.8's over a capable white kid from the suburbs with a 3.7. That's part of the reason we have the current problem with low standards. It should be whoever makes the cut makes it and whoever doesn't does not get in. We need blind admissions. Make race irrelevant and focus on GPA and SAT/ACT scores. I think this country sometimes embraces diversity so much so that it gets crammed down people's throats and replaces standards with quotas...just look at the FDNY and how that failed miserably. I think people should be free to associate. If you don't want diversity and want to go to a 95% white school there is nothing wrong with that. Humans are tribal and by in large stay with their own groups anyway. On the other hand, if a student wants to go to a school with people from all over that's just fine too and there's nothing wrong with it. I just don't want the perception to be that diversity is always better than homogeneity because the truth is it's not. Look at Europe...the multiculturalism is tearing it apart as we speak. I am a numbers and results guy, not in the quota business. That may come off as brash and insensitive, but I don't intend to be.

Just because NYU and Columbia are way more prestigious doesn't mean we can't drastically improve our profile. We live in the biggest metro area in the country and one of the biggest if not THE biggest in the world. There are plenty of smart kids to go around. If SJ raises the profile, we can steal kids from Stony Brook, Fordham, etc. I don't think saying let the best man win the spot is a radical thing to say. I think SJ can balance its diversity agenda with say a 40% acceptance rate becoming at least a fairly selective school. Just food for thought here, interesting discussion. I'm interested to see what the other guys think.

St. John's isn't turning away anyone with a good GPA no matter what skin color they are. The problem isn't that qualified white candidates aren't being admitted. It's that qualified white candidates are choosing other schools over St. John's.

 

[doodyny33]

STJ11- I respect your view but strongly disagree. By admitting C students as substantial portion of each class, St. John's is killing opportunities for the top half of its students who become burdened with the school's poor academic reputation. St. John's can still admit underprivileged students, but they should GOOD students. By cutting entering classes by not admitting less than B students, all St. John's students who graduate will benefit (and retention rates would be much higher).

Fordham's undergrad campus is no better or in any better location than St. John's. Look at Syracuse- it is in the middle of nowhere yet has a far better academic reputation. St. John's should cut CPS programs that overlap with other colleges in the University. I also think it should get rid of the Staten Island and Oakdale campuses. Do that, cut entering classes by 10-20%, and use better branding and marketing and St. John's would crack the top 100 in the rankings.

I think the Rome and Paris campuses benefit the University. Having a robust study-abroad program is a big positive for the school and should benefit recruitment.

Selling the Murray Street builiding is a good move. St. John's can lease space in a better location at lower cost, while boosting the endowment at a time of sky-high real estate prices.

I agree that St. John's needs to improve their academic standing. But you have to understand that this is a Vincentian University and it will never be as selective as some of the "elite" schools out there. They can't turn away mediocre students per se because that is not their mission.

Personally, I think the simple remedy to this is to get rid of the college of professional studies. The idea that you can get a 2 year degree from St. John's is pretty disgraceful to me. If you want to get a 2 year degree, go to one of the community colleges in the tristate area.

 

[STJ FinLaw]

I'm sure a large percentage of St. John's students could have been accepted to NYU. There are many reasons a top student, especially from Queens or Long Island, would go to St. John's instead- financial, location, family situation, etc. All things being equal someone would almost always pick NYU, but lots of other factors lead people a different way.

St. John's does have very smart, very good students. The problem is it also has bad students and for some reason won't raise its admissions standards under the fallacy that accepting C students is somehow accomplishing a mission of helping the poor.

 

[STJ11Redmen]

I'm sure a large percentage of St. John's students could have been accepted to NYU. There are many reasons a top student, especially from Queens or Long Island, would go to St. John's instead- financial, location, family situation, etc. All things being equal someone would almost always pick NYU, but lots of other factors lead people a different way.

St. John's does have very smart, very good students. The problem is it also has bad students and for some reason won't raise its admissions standards under the fallacy that accepting C students is somehow accomplishing a mission of helping the poor.

St. John's 75th percentile SAT score is 1190, NYU's 25th percentile SAT score is 1250. Are there some St. John's students who could have made NYU? Yeah, sure, but the number is probably around 5%.

 

[Ben]

I know the school would probably never do that because it wants to be known as exceptionally diverse, but it's something that needs to be done if we truly want to be a top 75 school.

The thing is the school doesn't want to be nor plans to be a Top 75 school. We have a niche that works. The academics should get better under a new administration but I think being in the 100-125 range of overall undergraduate schools is a realistic goal to set. At our core we are still a commuter school with limited residential space compared to our overall student population and in a city that has schools like NYU, Columbia and Fordham I don't think we have the ammunition to compete as a full residential school that will attract top students from around the country. With that being said there is no reason for our pharmacy school, law school and business school not to be top-notch and in the top 50 of their respective rankings.

It's nice to have good grad programs, but what really makes schools are strong undergrad programs. We need to demand more. Instead of giving the kid with a 3.0 from Haiti a scholarship and admittance, let's give it to a kid with a 3.7 from Haiti. Academics are more important than diversity. In fact, many of the top schools are not very diverse i.e. Villanova, Providence, Boston College, etc. Lots of schools in the area are very selective and only admit 30-35% of applicants. We let in around half. Why is this? The admissions just seem to be very lax...they seem to want to be seen as the UN instead of having a prestigious academic reputation. I just don't agree with that. I don't see any reason we shouldn't have the expectations of say a Fordham in terms of academics once we get more dorms and it turns into a legit dorming campus. Don't get me wrong, if international students or kids from the inner cities really do have good grade i.e. 3.4+ then by all means let them in. But I know a lot of people who go to SJ are the first in their families to get a college degree. I'd avoid being that kind of school. But hey, this is just me.

What I'm saying is why would a top-of-the-class kid go to St. John's when Columbia and NYU are in NYC. We aren't going to compete with those schools ever. Our campus isn't nice enough, we don't have the location or reputation and we certainly don't have the money. I don't want St. John's to be a top school that only admits rich white kids, that's not what St. John's is and it never will or should be. It's easy to say cut admission but to be honest I probably wouldn't have gotten a scholarship to St. John's if it was a school that had the standards of a school like Villanova, which I made but didn't get money from. If every school only admitted kids with great grades and SAT scores then 3/4 of the country would go uneducated.

We have a niche in that we can create scholars out of kids who didn't have the opportunity to because of financial struggles or problems at home. With that being said, we should expand the residential options and cut some of the College of Professional Studies programs that hold the school back and create other programs that have growing employment numbers.

What's so bad about having white kids in a school? This is what I'm afraid of. I don't want SJ admitting a student just because he's black or native american from the inner city with 2.8's over a capable white kid from the suburbs with a 3.7. That's part of the reason we have the current problem with low standards. It should be whoever makes the cut makes it and whoever doesn't does not get in. We need blind admissions. Make race irrelevant and focus on GPA and SAT/ACT scores. I think this country sometimes embraces diversity so much so that it gets crammed down people's throats and replaces standards with quotas...just look at the FDNY and how that failed miserably. I think people should be free to associate. If you don't want diversity and want to go to a 95% white school there is nothing wrong with that. Humans are tribal and by in large stay with their own groups anyway. On the other hand, if a student wants to go to a school with people from all over that's just fine too and there's nothing wrong with it. I just don't want the perception to be that diversity is always better than homogeneity because the truth is it's not. Look at Europe...the multiculturalism is tearing it apart as we speak. I am a numbers and results guy, not in the quota business. That may come off as brash and insensitive, but I don't intend to be.

Just because NYU and Columbia are way more prestigious doesn't mean we can't drastically improve our profile. We live in the biggest metro area in the country and one of the biggest if not THE biggest in the world. There are plenty of smart kids to go around. If SJ raises the profile, we can steal kids from Stony Brook, Fordham, etc. I don't think saying let the best man win the spot is a radical thing to say. I think SJ can balance its diversity agenda with say a 40% acceptance rate becoming at least a fairly selective school. Just food for thought here, interesting discussion. I'm interested to see what the other guys think.

St. John's isn't turning away anyone with a good GPA no matter what skin color they are. The problem isn't that qualified white candidates aren't being admitted. It's that qualified white candidates are choosing other schools over St. John's.

Right, but the very reason that the smart "rich white kids" are choosing other schools is because it is pretty clear SJ chooses diversity over rigor and prestige. The problem the school has parallels the one America has with immigrants today. We think we need to be this country where we let in low skilled, poor 3rd worlders and we think we owe them something. Instead of letting in low skill immigrants from countries with incompatible cultures like Iraq where they want sharia law in America and Europe, we should be letting in a science wizard from Hong Kong. In the same way, SJ needs to stop feeling the need to be the savior of everyone that got a raw deal in life and bring in real true quality students with real skill. That's what community colleges and trade schools are for...let them catch the C students.

I've been on many other campuses and compared to them, SJ just doesn't give me that academic feel to it. It seems like people at SJ for undergrad at least don't really take it seriously. I just think there's so much potential being in NYC in a pretty safe neighborhood being the largest catholic university in the US with famous alumni and 50,000 applicants. I'm sick of going to G'Town games hearing them make fun of our academics. I'm sick of people saying "well yeah we are just an ok academic school, but hey look how diverse we are!". Hate to say it, but the radical levels of diversity and quota mindset are ruining the academic standing of this school. Before you tell me how diverse Harvard or MIT are and all that, we aren't Harvard or MIT.

 

[STJ FinLaw]

-St. John's 75th percentile SAT score is 1190, NYU's 25th percentile SAT score is 1250. Are there some St. John's students who could have made NYU? Yeah, sure, but the number is probably around 5%.-

STJ11- your statistical analysis is way off. Based on Cappex data showing SAT and grades, it looks like about 25-30% of St. John's students could have been accepted at NYU.

 

[STJ11Redmen]

-St. John's 75th percentile SAT score is 1190, NYU's 25th percentile SAT score is 1250. Are there some St. John's students who could have made NYU? Yeah, sure, but the number is probably around 5%.-

STJ11- your statistical analysis is way off. Based on Cappex data showing SAT and grades, it looks like about 25-30% of St. John's students could have been accepted at NYU.

I'm not so sure that's the case. Many of the upper-echelon SAT scores at St. John's come from white kids who would have no shot at NYU unless they were over a 3.6 GPA and had a 1350 SAT. Conversely, many of the lower echelon NYU SAT scores were a product of affirmative action. That will skew the numbers a bit. I went through the college process a few years ago, as an upper-middle class white guy I wasn't getting into these schools unless I was above the 25% threshold of their scores and not getting financial aid unless I was above the median.

 

[mjmaherjr]

I know the school would probably never do that because it wants to be known as exceptionally diverse, but it's something that needs to be done if we truly want to be a top 75 school.

The thing is the school doesn't want to be nor plans to be a Top 75 school. We have a niche that works. The academics should get better under a new administration but I think being in the 100-125 range of overall undergraduate schools is a realistic goal to set. At our core we are still a commuter school with limited residential space compared to our overall student population and in a city that has schools like NYU, Columbia and Fordham I don't think we have the ammunition to compete as a full residential school that will attract top students from around the country. With that being said there is no reason for our pharmacy school, law school and business school not to be top-notch and in the top 50 of their respective rankings.

It's nice to have good grad programs, but what really makes schools are strong undergrad programs. We need to demand more. Instead of giving the kid with a 3.0 from Haiti a scholarship and admittance, let's give it to a kid with a 3.7 from Haiti. Academics are more important than diversity. In fact, many of the top schools are not very diverse i.e. Villanova, Providence, Boston College, etc. Lots of schools in the area are very selective and only admit 30-35% of applicants. We let in around half. Why is this? The admissions just seem to be very lax...they seem to want to be seen as the UN instead of having a prestigious academic reputation. I just don't agree with that. I don't see any reason we shouldn't have the expectations of say a Fordham in terms of academics once we get more dorms and it turns into a legit dorming campus. Don't get me wrong, if international students or kids from the inner cities really do have good grade i.e. 3.4+ then by all means let them in. But I know a lot of people who go to SJ are the first in their families to get a college degree. I'd avoid being that kind of school. But hey, this is just me.

What I'm saying is why would a top-of-the-class kid go to St. John's when Columbia and NYU are in NYC. We aren't going to compete with those schools ever. Our campus isn't nice enough, we don't have the location or reputation and we certainly don't have the money. I don't want St. John's to be a top school that only admits rich white kids, that's not what St. John's is and it never will or should be. It's easy to say cut admission but to be honest I probably wouldn't have gotten a scholarship to St. John's if it was a school that had the standards of a school like Villanova, which I made but didn't get money from. If every school only admitted kids with great grades and SAT scores then 3/4 of the country would go uneducated.

We have a niche in that we can create scholars out of kids who didn't have the opportunity to because of financial struggles or problems at home. With that being said, we should expand the residential options and cut some of the College of Professional Studies programs that hold the school back and create other programs that have growing employment numbers.

What's so bad about having white kids in a school? This is what I'm afraid of. I don't want SJ admitting a student just because he's black or native american from the inner city with 2.8's over a capable white kid from the suburbs with a 3.7. That's part of the reason we have the current problem with low standards. It should be whoever makes the cut makes it and whoever doesn't does not get in. We need blind admissions. Make race irrelevant and focus on GPA and SAT/ACT scores. I think this country sometimes embraces diversity so much so that it gets crammed down people's throats and replaces standards with quotas...just look at the FDNY and how that failed miserably. I think people should be free to associate. If you don't want diversity and want to go to a 95% white school there is nothing wrong with that. Humans are tribal and by in large stay with their own groups anyway. On the other hand, if a student wants to go to a school with people from all over that's just fine too and there's nothing wrong with it. I just don't want the perception to be that diversity is always better than homogeneity because the truth is it's not. Look at Europe...the multiculturalism is tearing it apart as we speak. I am a numbers and results guy, not in the quota business. That may come off as brash and insensitive, but I don't intend to be.

Just because NYU and Columbia are way more prestigious doesn't mean we can't drastically improve our profile. We live in the biggest metro area in the country and one of the biggest if not THE biggest in the world. There are plenty of smart kids to go around. If SJ raises the profile, we can steal kids from Stony Brook, Fordham, etc. I don't think saying let the best man win the spot is a radical thing to say. I think SJ can balance its diversity agenda with say a 40% acceptance rate becoming at least a fairly selective school. Just food for thought here, interesting discussion. I'm interested to see what the other guys think.

St. John's isn't turning away anyone with a good GPA no matter what skin color they are. The problem isn't that qualified white candidates aren't being admitted. It's that qualified white candidates are choosing other schools over St. John's.

Right, but the very reason that the smart "rich white kids" are choosing other schools is because it is pretty clear SJ chooses diversity over rigor and prestige. The problem the school has parallels the one America has with immigrants today. We think we need to be this country where we let in low skilled, poor 3rd worlders and we think we owe them something. Instead of letting in low skill immigrants from countries with incompatible cultures like Iraq where they want sharia law in America and Europe, we should be letting in a science wizard from Hong Kong.

Wow.

 

[Ben]

I know the school would probably never do that because it wants to be known as exceptionally diverse, but it's something that needs to be done if we truly want to be a top 75 school.

The thing is the school doesn't want to be nor plans to be a Top 75 school. We have a niche that works. The academics should get better under a new administration but I think being in the 100-125 range of overall undergraduate schools is a realistic goal to set. At our core we are still a commuter school with limited residential space compared to our overall student population and in a city that has schools like NYU, Columbia and Fordham I don't think we have the ammunition to compete as a full residential school that will attract top students from around the country. With that being said there is no reason for our pharmacy school, law school and business school not to be top-notch and in the top 50 of their respective rankings.

It's nice to have good grad programs, but what really makes schools are strong undergrad programs. We need to demand more. Instead of giving the kid with a 3.0 from Haiti a scholarship and admittance, let's give it to a kid with a 3.7 from Haiti. Academics are more important than diversity. In fact, many of the top schools are not very diverse i.e. Villanova, Providence, Boston College, etc. Lots of schools in the area are very selective and only admit 30-35% of applicants. We let in around half. Why is this? The admissions just seem to be very lax...they seem to want to be seen as the UN instead of having a prestigious academic reputation. I just don't agree with that. I don't see any reason we shouldn't have the expectations of say a Fordham in terms of academics once we get more dorms and it turns into a legit dorming campus. Don't get me wrong, if international students or kids from the inner cities really do have good grade i.e. 3.4+ then by all means let them in. But I know a lot of people who go to SJ are the first in their families to get a college degree. I'd avoid being that kind of school. But hey, this is just me.

What I'm saying is why would a top-of-the-class kid go to St. John's when Columbia and NYU are in NYC. We aren't going to compete with those schools ever. Our campus isn't nice enough, we don't have the location or reputation and we certainly don't have the money. I don't want St. John's to be a top school that only admits rich white kids, that's not what St. John's is and it never will or should be. It's easy to say cut admission but to be honest I probably wouldn't have gotten a scholarship to St. John's if it was a school that had the standards of a school like Villanova, which I made but didn't get money from. If every school only admitted kids with great grades and SAT scores then 3/4 of the country would go uneducated.

We have a niche in that we can create scholars out of kids who didn't have the opportunity to because of financial struggles or problems at home. With that being said, we should expand the residential options and cut some of the College of Professional Studies programs that hold the school back and create other programs that have growing employment numbers.

What's so bad about having white kids in a school? This is what I'm afraid of. I don't want SJ admitting a student just because he's black or native american from the inner city with 2.8's over a capable white kid from the suburbs with a 3.7. That's part of the reason we have the current problem with low standards. It should be whoever makes the cut makes it and whoever doesn't does not get in. We need blind admissions. Make race irrelevant and focus on GPA and SAT/ACT scores. I think this country sometimes embraces diversity so much so that it gets crammed down people's throats and replaces standards with quotas...just look at the FDNY and how that failed miserably. I think people should be free to associate. If you don't want diversity and want to go to a 95% white school there is nothing wrong with that. Humans are tribal and by in large stay with their own groups anyway. On the other hand, if a student wants to go to a school with people from all over that's just fine too and there's nothing wrong with it. I just don't want the perception to be that diversity is always better than homogeneity because the truth is it's not. Look at Europe...the multiculturalism is tearing it apart as we speak. I am a numbers and results guy, not in the quota business. That may come off as brash and insensitive, but I don't intend to be.

Just because NYU and Columbia are way more prestigious doesn't mean we can't drastically improve our profile. We live in the biggest metro area in the country and one of the biggest if not THE biggest in the world. There are plenty of smart kids to go around. If SJ raises the profile, we can steal kids from Stony Brook, Fordham, etc. I don't think saying let the best man win the spot is a radical thing to say. I think SJ can balance its diversity agenda with say a 40% acceptance rate becoming at least a fairly selective school. Just food for thought here, interesting discussion. I'm interested to see what the other guys think.

St. John's isn't turning away anyone with a good GPA no matter what skin color they are. The problem isn't that qualified white candidates aren't being admitted. It's that qualified white candidates are choosing other schools over St. John's.

Right, but the very reason that the smart "rich white kids" are choosing other schools is because it is pretty clear SJ chooses diversity over rigor and prestige. The problem the school has parallels the one America has with immigrants today. We think we need to be this country where we let in low skilled, poor 3rd worlders and we think we owe them something. Instead of letting in low skill immigrants from countries with incompatible cultures like Iraq where they want sharia law in America and Europe, we should be letting in a science wizard from Hong Kong.

Wow.

No rebuttal, just a reaction? I'm curious how you would counter.

 

[SI1996]

I know the school would probably never do that because it wants to be known as exceptionally diverse, but it's something that needs to be done if we truly want to be a top 75 school.

The thing is the school doesn't want to be nor plans to be a Top 75 school. We have a niche that works. The academics should get better under a new administration but I think being in the 100-125 range of overall undergraduate schools is a realistic goal to set. At our core we are still a commuter school with limited residential space compared to our overall student population and in a city that has schools like NYU, Columbia and Fordham I don't think we have the ammunition to compete as a full residential school that will attract top students from around the country. With that being said there is no reason for our pharmacy school, law school and business school not to be top-notch and in the top 50 of their respective rankings.

It's nice to have good grad programs, but what really makes schools are strong undergrad programs. We need to demand more. Instead of giving the kid with a 3.0 from Haiti a scholarship and admittance, let's give it to a kid with a 3.7 from Haiti. Academics are more important than diversity. In fact, many of the top schools are not very diverse i.e. Villanova, Providence, Boston College, etc. Lots of schools in the area are very selective and only admit 30-35% of applicants. We let in around half. Why is this? The admissions just seem to be very lax...they seem to want to be seen as the UN instead of having a prestigious academic reputation. I just don't agree with that. I don't see any reason we shouldn't have the expectations of say a Fordham in terms of academics once we get more dorms and it turns into a legit dorming campus. Don't get me wrong, if international students or kids from the inner cities really do have good grade i.e. 3.4+ then by all means let them in. But I know a lot of people who go to SJ are the first in their families to get a college degree. I'd avoid being that kind of school. But hey, this is just me.

What I'm saying is why would a top-of-the-class kid go to St. John's when Columbia and NYU are in NYC. We aren't going to compete with those schools ever. Our campus isn't nice enough, we don't have the location or reputation and we certainly don't have the money. I don't want St. John's to be a top school that only admits rich white kids, that's not what St. John's is and it never will or should be. It's easy to say cut admission but to be honest I probably wouldn't have gotten a scholarship to St. John's if it was a school that had the standards of a school like Villanova, which I made but didn't get money from. If every school only admitted kids with great grades and SAT scores then 3/4 of the country would go uneducated.

We have a niche in that we can create scholars out of kids who didn't have the opportunity to because of financial struggles or problems at home. With that being said, we should expand the residential options and cut some of the College of Professional Studies programs that hold the school back and create other programs that have growing employment numbers.

What's so bad about having white kids in a school? This is what I'm afraid of. I don't want SJ admitting a student just because he's black or native american from the inner city with 2.8's over a capable white kid from the suburbs with a 3.7. That's part of the reason we have the current problem with low standards. It should be whoever makes the cut makes it and whoever doesn't does not get in. We need blind admissions. Make race irrelevant and focus on GPA and SAT/ACT scores. I think this country sometimes embraces diversity so much so that it gets crammed down people's throats and replaces standards with quotas...just look at the FDNY and how that failed miserably. I think people should be free to associate. If you don't want diversity and want to go to a 95% white school there is nothing wrong with that. Humans are tribal and by in large stay with their own groups anyway. On the other hand, if a student wants to go to a school with people from all over that's just fine too and there's nothing wrong with it. I just don't want the perception to be that diversity is always better than homogeneity because the truth is it's not. Look at Europe...the multiculturalism is tearing it apart as we speak. I am a numbers and results guy, not in the quota business. That may come off as brash and insensitive, but I don't intend to be.

Just because NYU and Columbia are way more prestigious doesn't mean we can't drastically improve our profile. We live in the biggest metro area in the country and one of the biggest if not THE biggest in the world. There are plenty of smart kids to go around. If SJ raises the profile, we can steal kids from Stony Brook, Fordham, etc. I don't think saying let the best man win the spot is a radical thing to say. I think SJ can balance its diversity agenda with say a 40% acceptance rate becoming at least a fairly selective school. Just food for thought here, interesting discussion. I'm interested to see what the other guys think.

St. John's isn't turning away anyone with a good GPA no matter what skin color they are. The problem isn't that qualified white candidates aren't being admitted. It's that qualified white candidates are choosing other schools over St. John's.

Right, but the very reason that the smart "rich white kids" are choosing other schools is because it is pretty clear SJ chooses diversity over rigor and prestige. The problem the school has parallels the one America has with immigrants today. We think we need to be this country where we let in low skilled, poor 3rd worlders and we think we owe them something. Instead of letting in low skill immigrants from countries with incompatible cultures like Iraq where they want sharia law in America and Europe, we should be letting in a science wizard from Hong Kong.

Wow.

Would you expect anything less given Joe3 past posts? This seems about right.

 

[mjmaherjr]

I know the school would probably never do that because it wants to be known as exceptionally diverse, but it's something that needs to be done if we truly want to be a top 75 school.

The thing is the school doesn't want to be nor plans to be a Top 75 school. We have a niche that works. The academics should get better under a new administration but I think being in the 100-125 range of overall undergraduate schools is a realistic goal to set. At our core we are still a commuter school with limited residential space compared to our overall student population and in a city that has schools like NYU, Columbia and Fordham I don't think we have the ammunition to compete as a full residential school that will attract top students from around the country. With that being said there is no reason for our pharmacy school, law school and business school not to be top-notch and in the top 50 of their respective rankings.

It's nice to have good grad programs, but what really makes schools are strong undergrad programs. We need to demand more. Instead of giving the kid with a 3.0 from Haiti a scholarship and admittance, let's give it to a kid with a 3.7 from Haiti. Academics are more important than diversity. In fact, many of the top schools are not very diverse i.e. Villanova, Providence, Boston College, etc. Lots of schools in the area are very selective and only admit 30-35% of applicants. We let in around half. Why is this? The admissions just seem to be very lax...they seem to want to be seen as the UN instead of having a prestigious academic reputation. I just don't agree with that. I don't see any reason we shouldn't have the expectations of say a Fordham in terms of academics once we get more dorms and it turns into a legit dorming campus. Don't get me wrong, if international students or kids from the inner cities really do have good grade i.e. 3.4+ then by all means let them in. But I know a lot of people who go to SJ are the first in their families to get a college degree. I'd avoid being that kind of school. But hey, this is just me.

What I'm saying is why would a top-of-the-class kid go to St. John's when Columbia and NYU are in NYC. We aren't going to compete with those schools ever. Our campus isn't nice enough, we don't have the location or reputation and we certainly don't have the money. I don't want St. John's to be a top school that only admits rich white kids, that's not what St. John's is and it never will or should be. It's easy to say cut admission but to be honest I probably wouldn't have gotten a scholarship to St. John's if it was a school that had the standards of a school like Villanova, which I made but didn't get money from. If every school only admitted kids with great grades and SAT scores then 3/4 of the country would go uneducated.

We have a niche in that we can create scholars out of kids who didn't have the opportunity to because of financial struggles or problems at home. With that being said, we should expand the residential options and cut some of the College of Professional Studies programs that hold the school back and create other programs that have growing employment numbers.

What's so bad about having white kids in a school? This is what I'm afraid of. I don't want SJ admitting a student just because he's black or native american from the inner city with 2.8's over a capable white kid from the suburbs with a 3.7. That's part of the reason we have the current problem with low standards. It should be whoever makes the cut makes it and whoever doesn't does not get in. We need blind admissions. Make race irrelevant and focus on GPA and SAT/ACT scores. I think this country sometimes embraces diversity so much so that it gets crammed down people's throats and replaces standards with quotas...just look at the FDNY and how that failed miserably. I think people should be free to associate. If you don't want diversity and want to go to a 95% white school there is nothing wrong with that. Humans are tribal and by in large stay with their own groups anyway. On the other hand, if a student wants to go to a school with people from all over that's just fine too and there's nothing wrong with it. I just don't want the perception to be that diversity is always better than homogeneity because the truth is it's not. Look at Europe...the multiculturalism is tearing it apart as we speak. I am a numbers and results guy, not in the quota business. That may come off as brash and insensitive, but I don't intend to be.

Just because NYU and Columbia are way more prestigious doesn't mean we can't drastically improve our profile. We live in the biggest metro area in the country and one of the biggest if not THE biggest in the world. There are plenty of smart kids to go around. If SJ raises the profile, we can steal kids from Stony Brook, Fordham, etc. I don't think saying let the best man win the spot is a radical thing to say. I think SJ can balance its diversity agenda with say a 40% acceptance rate becoming at least a fairly selective school. Just food for thought here, interesting discussion. I'm interested to see what the other guys think.

St. John's isn't turning away anyone with a good GPA no matter what skin color they are. The problem isn't that qualified white candidates aren't being admitted. It's that qualified white candidates are choosing other schools over St. John's.

Right, but the very reason that the smart "rich white kids" are choosing other schools is because it is pretty clear SJ chooses diversity over rigor and prestige. The problem the school has parallels the one America has with immigrants today. We think we need to be this country where we let in low skilled, poor 3rd worlders and we think we owe them something. Instead of letting in low skill immigrants from countries with incompatible cultures like Iraq where they want sharia law in America and Europe, we should be letting in a science wizard from Hong Kong.

Wow.

No rebuttal, just a reaction? I'm curious how you would counter.

Well 1st I'd counter that I'm suprised you didnt highlight Villanova in your post

2nd it's interesting you think low skilled workers come from Iraq and science wizards from Hong Kong. Just funny because a long time ago there was an Iranian family on my block and 1 of their kids I think is a scientist now. But maybe it's a big difference being an iranian vs iraqi now after the wars

Just a matter of time before you complain about those hong kong wizards about taking away jobs from your generation though just like you were complaining about old people taking away your generation's opportunities.

BTW it is pretty Ironic that you are worried about Iraqi's wanting Sharia law in the US when we invaded their country. But I wouldn't worry too much since I'm not even sure they represent 1% of immigrants here. I'm not even sure I have even met more than 5 in my life.

 

[Ben]

I know the school would probably never do that because it wants to be known as exceptionally diverse, but it's something that needs to be done if we truly want to be a top 75 school.

The thing is the school doesn't want to be nor plans to be a Top 75 school. We have a niche that works. The academics should get better under a new administration but I think being in the 100-125 range of overall undergraduate schools is a realistic goal to set. At our core we are still a commuter school with limited residential space compared to our overall student population and in a city that has schools like NYU, Columbia and Fordham I don't think we have the ammunition to compete as a full residential school that will attract top students from around the country. With that being said there is no reason for our pharmacy school, law school and business school not to be top-notch and in the top 50 of their respective rankings.

It's nice to have good grad programs, but what really makes schools are strong undergrad programs. We need to demand more. Instead of giving the kid with a 3.0 from Haiti a scholarship and admittance, let's give it to a kid with a 3.7 from Haiti. Academics are more important than diversity. In fact, many of the top schools are not very diverse i.e. Villanova, Providence, Boston College, etc. Lots of schools in the area are very selective and only admit 30-35% of applicants. We let in around half. Why is this? The admissions just seem to be very lax...they seem to want to be seen as the UN instead of having a prestigious academic reputation. I just don't agree with that. I don't see any reason we shouldn't have the expectations of say a Fordham in terms of academics once we get more dorms and it turns into a legit dorming campus. Don't get me wrong, if international students or kids from the inner cities really do have good grade i.e. 3.4+ then by all means let them in. But I know a lot of people who go to SJ are the first in their families to get a college degree. I'd avoid being that kind of school. But hey, this is just me.

What I'm saying is why would a top-of-the-class kid go to St. John's when Columbia and NYU are in NYC. We aren't going to compete with those schools ever. Our campus isn't nice enough, we don't have the location or reputation and we certainly don't have the money. I don't want St. John's to be a top school that only admits rich white kids, that's not what St. John's is and it never will or should be. It's easy to say cut admission but to be honest I probably wouldn't have gotten a scholarship to St. John's if it was a school that had the standards of a school like Villanova, which I made but didn't get money from. If every school only admitted kids with great grades and SAT scores then 3/4 of the country would go uneducated.

We have a niche in that we can create scholars out of kids who didn't have the opportunity to because of financial struggles or problems at home. With that being said, we should expand the residential options and cut some of the College of Professional Studies programs that hold the school back and create other programs that have growing employment numbers.

What's so bad about having white kids in a school? This is what I'm afraid of. I don't want SJ admitting a student just because he's black or native american from the inner city with 2.8's over a capable white kid from the suburbs with a 3.7. That's part of the reason we have the current problem with low standards. It should be whoever makes the cut makes it and whoever doesn't does not get in. We need blind admissions. Make race irrelevant and focus on GPA and SAT/ACT scores. I think this country sometimes embraces diversity so much so that it gets crammed down people's throats and replaces standards with quotas...just look at the FDNY and how that failed miserably. I think people should be free to associate. If you don't want diversity and want to go to a 95% white school there is nothing wrong with that. Humans are tribal and by in large stay with their own groups anyway. On the other hand, if a student wants to go to a school with people from all over that's just fine too and there's nothing wrong with it. I just don't want the perception to be that diversity is always better than homogeneity because the truth is it's not. Look at Europe...the multiculturalism is tearing it apart as we speak. I am a numbers and results guy, not in the quota business. That may come off as brash and insensitive, but I don't intend to be.

Just because NYU and Columbia are way more prestigious doesn't mean we can't drastically improve our profile. We live in the biggest metro area in the country and one of the biggest if not THE biggest in the world. There are plenty of smart kids to go around. If SJ raises the profile, we can steal kids from Stony Brook, Fordham, etc. I don't think saying let the best man win the spot is a radical thing to say. I think SJ can balance its diversity agenda with say a 40% acceptance rate becoming at least a fairly selective school. Just food for thought here, interesting discussion. I'm interested to see what the other guys think.

St. John's isn't turning away anyone with a good GPA no matter what skin color they are. The problem isn't that qualified white candidates aren't being admitted. It's that qualified white candidates are choosing other schools over St. John's.

Right, but the very reason that the smart "rich white kids" are choosing other schools is because it is pretty clear SJ chooses diversity over rigor and prestige. The problem the school has parallels the one America has with immigrants today. We think we need to be this country where we let in low skilled, poor 3rd worlders and we think we owe them something. Instead of letting in low skill immigrants from countries with incompatible cultures like Iraq where they want sharia law in America and Europe, we should be letting in a science wizard from Hong Kong.

Wow.

No rebuttal, just a reaction? I'm curious how you would counter.

Well 1st I'd counter that I'm suprised you didnt highlight Villanova in your post

2nd it's interesting you think low skilled workers come from Iraq and science wizards from Hong Kong. Just funny because a long time ago there was an Iranian family on my block and 1 of their kids I think is a scientist now. But maybe it's a big difference being an iranian vs iraqi now after the wars

Just a matter of time before you complain about those hong kong wizards about taking away jobs from your generation though just like you were complaining about old people taking away your generation's opportunities.

BTW it is pretty Ironic that you are worried about Iraqi's wanting Sharia law in the US when we invaded their country. But I wouldn't worry too much since I'm not even sure they represent 1% of immigrants here. I'm not even sure I have even met more than 5 in my life.

I was really just using some quick examples, not necessarily the most obvious ones. There is no way you can deny there is an illegal immigrant invasion in this country of low skilled people from the 3rd world. Studies also show that they don't move up either like past immigrants (who weren't illegal), because they refuse to assimilate. I'm not just talking about illegal immigrants though, also legal immigrants from the 3rd world. There should not be a revolving door in this country...we should be highly selective and only let people in who can make us a better country and offer real skills...same for SJ which is why I made the parallel. Having no standards is never good. I truly feel for the less fortunate of the world and if I was a trillionaire I'd end world hunger, but it's not realistic. I just don't think America should be responsible for other people's bad luck in life. It's like casinos...some will win, some will lose. If you hit the jackpot and some guy comes over and asks you for some, are you going to give it to him? No. You don't owe him a thing...it was just the luck of the draw that you won and he didn't. To stay with the parallel to SJ, I want to attract the winners in life, the ones with a lot going for them, not the ones who don't take school seriously and are only there because of the color of their skin.

Not exclusively obviously, but by in large. My point is that multiculturalism has failed on many fronts but many people refuse to admit it because they will get called the dreaded "r" word. The FDNY was forced to be politically correct and literally give jobs to those who could not perform. What ensued was the worst class of firefighters ever. They couldn't even complete basic training tasks. Is that what we want at SJ? I hope not. And by the way if you don't think there's a massive radical Islam problem in Europe, you haven't been following the news. There are thousands protesting in the streets because the radicals want to install sharia law, beheaded an English soldier, and a soldier in France was just stabbed in the neck by another radical. They also want women treated worse than cattle. Being diverse should not be the #1 ideal...it should be quality first. There is no reason affirmative action should even exist anymore.

 

[mjmaherjr]

I know the school would probably never do that because it wants to be known as exceptionally diverse, but it's something that needs to be done if we truly want to be a top 75 school.

The thing is the school doesn't want to be nor plans to be a Top 75 school. We have a niche that works. The academics should get better under a new administration but I think being in the 100-125 range of overall undergraduate schools is a realistic goal to set. At our core we are still a commuter school with limited residential space compared to our overall student population and in a city that has schools like NYU, Columbia and Fordham I don't think we have the ammunition to compete as a full residential school that will attract top students from around the country. With that being said there is no reason for our pharmacy school, law school and business school not to be top-notch and in the top 50 of their respective rankings.

It's nice to have good grad programs, but what really makes schools are strong undergrad programs. We need to demand more. Instead of giving the kid with a 3.0 from Haiti a scholarship and admittance, let's give it to a kid with a 3.7 from Haiti. Academics are more important than diversity. In fact, many of the top schools are not very diverse i.e. Villanova, Providence, Boston College, etc. Lots of schools in the area are very selective and only admit 30-35% of applicants. We let in around half. Why is this? The admissions just seem to be very lax...they seem to want to be seen as the UN instead of having a prestigious academic reputation. I just don't agree with that. I don't see any reason we shouldn't have the expectations of say a Fordham in terms of academics once we get more dorms and it turns into a legit dorming campus. Don't get me wrong, if international students or kids from the inner cities really do have good grade i.e. 3.4+ then by all means let them in. But I know a lot of people who go to SJ are the first in their families to get a college degree. I'd avoid being that kind of school. But hey, this is just me.

What I'm saying is why would a top-of-the-class kid go to St. John's when Columbia and NYU are in NYC. We aren't going to compete with those schools ever. Our campus isn't nice enough, we don't have the location or reputation and we certainly don't have the money. I don't want St. John's to be a top school that only admits rich white kids, that's not what St. John's is and it never will or should be. It's easy to say cut admission but to be honest I probably wouldn't have gotten a scholarship to St. John's if it was a school that had the standards of a school like Villanova, which I made but didn't get money from. If every school only admitted kids with great grades and SAT scores then 3/4 of the country would go uneducated.

We have a niche in that we can create scholars out of kids who didn't have the opportunity to because of financial struggles or problems at home. With that being said, we should expand the residential options and cut some of the College of Professional Studies programs that hold the school back and create other programs that have growing employment numbers.

What's so bad about having white kids in a school? This is what I'm afraid of. I don't want SJ admitting a student just because he's black or native american from the inner city with 2.8's over a capable white kid from the suburbs with a 3.7. That's part of the reason we have the current problem with low standards. It should be whoever makes the cut makes it and whoever doesn't does not get in. We need blind admissions. Make race irrelevant and focus on GPA and SAT/ACT scores. I think this country sometimes embraces diversity so much so that it gets crammed down people's throats and replaces standards with quotas...just look at the FDNY and how that failed miserably. I think people should be free to associate. If you don't want diversity and want to go to a 95% white school there is nothing wrong with that. Humans are tribal and by in large stay with their own groups anyway. On the other hand, if a student wants to go to a school with people from all over that's just fine too and there's nothing wrong with it. I just don't want the perception to be that diversity is always better than homogeneity because the truth is it's not. Look at Europe...the multiculturalism is tearing it apart as we speak. I am a numbers and results guy, not in the quota business. That may come off as brash and insensitive, but I don't intend to be.

Just because NYU and Columbia are way more prestigious doesn't mean we can't drastically improve our profile. We live in the biggest metro area in the country and one of the biggest if not THE biggest in the world. There are plenty of smart kids to go around. If SJ raises the profile, we can steal kids from Stony Brook, Fordham, etc. I don't think saying let the best man win the spot is a radical thing to say. I think SJ can balance its diversity agenda with say a 40% acceptance rate becoming at least a fairly selective school. Just food for thought here, interesting discussion. I'm interested to see what the other guys think.

St. John's isn't turning away anyone with a good GPA no matter what skin color they are. The problem isn't that qualified white candidates aren't being admitted. It's that qualified white candidates are choosing other schools over St. John's.

Right, but the very reason that the smart "rich white kids" are choosing other schools is because it is pretty clear SJ chooses diversity over rigor and prestige. The problem the school has parallels the one America has with immigrants today. We think we need to be this country where we let in low skilled, poor 3rd worlders and we think we owe them something. Instead of letting in low skill immigrants from countries with incompatible cultures like Iraq where they want sharia law in America and Europe, we should be letting in a science wizard from Hong Kong.

Wow.

No rebuttal, just a reaction? I'm curious how you would counter.

Well 1st I'd counter that I'm suprised you didnt highlight Villanova in your post

2nd it's interesting you think low skilled workers come from Iraq and science wizards from Hong Kong. Just funny because a long time ago there was an Iranian family on my block and 1 of their kids I think is a scientist now. But maybe it's a big difference being an iranian vs iraqi now after the wars

Just a matter of time before you complain about those hong kong wizards about taking away jobs from your generation though just like you were complaining about old people taking away your generation's opportunities.

BTW it is pretty Ironic that you are worried about Iraqi's wanting Sharia law in the US when we invaded their country. But I wouldn't worry too much since I'm not even sure they represent 1% of immigrants here. I'm not even sure I have even met more than 5 in my life.

I was really just using some quick examples, not necessarily the most obvious ones. There is no way you can deny there is an illegal immigrant invasion in this country of low skilled people from the 3rd world. Studies also show that they don't move up either like past immigrants (who weren't illegal), because they refuse to assimilate. I'm not just talking about illegal immigrants though, also legal immigrants from the 3rd world. There should not be a revolving door in this country...we should be highly selective and only let people in who can make us a better country and offer real skills...same for SJ which is why I made the parallel. Having no standards is never good. I truly feel for the less fortunate of the world and if I was a trillionaire I'd end world hunger, but it's not realistic. I just don't think America should be responsible for other people's bad luck in life. It's like casinos...some will win, some will lose. If you hit the jackpot and some guy comes over and asks you for some, are you going to give it to him? No. You don't owe him a thing...it was just the luck of the draw that you won and he didn't. To stay with the parallel to SJ, I want to attract the winners in life, the ones with a lot going for them, not the ones who don't take school seriously and are only there because of the color of their skin.

Not exclusively obviously, but by in large. My point is that multiculturalism has failed on many fronts but many people refuse to admit it because they will get called the dreaded "r" word. The FDNY was forced to be politically correct and literally give jobs to those who could not perform. What ensued was the worst class of firefighters ever. They couldn't even complete basic training tasks. Is that what we want at SJ? I hope not. And by the way if you don't think there's a massive radical Islam problem in Europe, you haven't been following the news. There are thousands protesting in the streets because the radicals want to install sharia law, beheaded an English soldier, and a soldier in France was just stabbed in the neck by another radical. They also want women treated worse than cattle. Being diverse should not be the #1 ideal...it should be quality first. There is no reason affirmative action should even exist anymore.

I agree there is definitely something wrong with immigration. Just never had an Iraqi cut my lawn so honestly have never considered a middle east immigration problem.

I'm sure immigrants arent moving up as in the old days and some of that might be because some refuse to assimilate but I dont think it's just that. The middle class is dwindling in general regardless of race not only making it harder for people to move up but a lot of people are moving down

Moving to this country legally even isnt as easy as you think. My fiancee's brother has been waiting to move here legally for I think 4 years and is still waiting for approval. I dont know if there are different standards depending on where you are from ( I want to say yes but I'm really not sure. Regardless he is from South America )and he is a computer whiz but it's not that easy to just come here. At least from South America.

I totally agree with you about St Johns raising there standards to an extent and granted it was a while ago that I went to St Johns but when I went there the foreign students were a lot smarter than a lot of the other local students who thought there was 1 K in Drakkar Noir and they wore it every freaking day

I understand what you are saying with Europe but I just dont see it happening here. Heck when we were walking around in Malmo Sweden a couple of years ago we were specifically told to not walk into a couple of parts that were heavily muslim because they said there would be problems for us. So we avoided them. But bad things can happen anywhere regardless of race or religion.

On the other hand I also felt perfectly safe walking around Jordan after just a couple of hours and walking thru the west bank & bethlehem and the arab part of east jerusalem.

But no way in hell would you catching me walking in my brothers old precinct on brooklyn

 

[STJ11Redmen]

Joe, everyone in America came from somewhere, it's just that Europeans came while the country was developing because of their proximity to North America so their ideals, customs and beliefs have become the base of American culture. The way you act probably seems weird to plenty of legal immigrants who you determine to be weird.

My grandparents came to America looking for a better life and were treated like crap just because they were Irish. Catholic schools like St. John's were brought into existence to give a decent education to people who were not admitted to the Harvards and Columbias of the world because of their ethnicity and religion. I've met countless people at St. John's who were smart immigrants who went to crappy high schools or had much more dire things than school to worry about for no fault of their own and didn't have the grades to make better schools but they went to St. John's, were accepted as part of the community in a way they may not have been at other places, and greatly succeeded in the same way my grandparents had to go about things. Why any American who had roots in Europe would complain about customs of immigrants and not allow them to get a good education seems extremely hypocritical.

 

[STJ11Redmen]

With that being said, nothing bothers me more than the immigrants who don't associate themselves as Americans and make no attempt to be an American. I am referring more to the people willing to work hard, get a good education, stay in America and have their future generations be American. But in terms of acceptance to St. John's I have no problem with the diversity on campus. In my experience as an undergrad most of the people who don't last at St. John's because of their academics are actually the white jokers from Long Island who treat it like 13th grade.