Holy Cross Forms Commission Over Mascot

When you think about it, so many of the metaphors and colloquialisms about sports have to do with war. We use phrases like "It was a great battle, "well armed, "killed them", "got slaughtered", and dozens of others.

Many teams are named after fighting tribes or ethnicities, or other groups.

Warriors, Jayhawks, tar heels, Seminoles, Aztecs, rebels, even Fighting Irish - the list goes on and on.

Missourians could be offended be Jayhawks except that the Missourians the Jayhawks warred with were pro-slavery.

Tar heels dug in against Union forces during the civil war.

We're the fighting Irish named for resisting British dominion or simply feisty fisticuffs men who had maybe hoisted a few too many beers?

After slaughtering so many wolves that they are being reintroduced by man to Yellowstone to restore ecological balance. Should references to animal names for sports teams be removed as not to create and perpetuate negative images of bears, gators, wolves, lions, tigers, sharks or other predatory creatures that are killed for sport or because we perceive them to be of danger.

Maybe this a cause PETA can get involved in.

Come to think of it, The image of attacks by Friars on young men in shorts should be reconsidered too.

I'm now convinced that removing the name Crusaders will change the world for the better.
 
Dear Uzi,
I am not citing indescriminate lines from the Quran since the Quran to the non muslim appears to be rife with ancient verses that were meant for the people of the time and today is misinterpreted to suit the intended audience. ISIS has done it to recruit soldiers in its battle against civilized people of any religion. The Bible too is full of stories written in a particular time and place meant to convey a religious message.

If you are a Muslim I have no intention of singling Muslims out as mass murderers, slave traders, sexist male dominated bigots, or whatever. Christianity has no more or no less bad history or bad press in modern society. Said society inludes Hindu, Jain, Buddhist, Agnostics and hundreds of millions of traditional folk religion followers clearly identified by the Quran as "non-belivers". Unless they all have a religious epiphany before they meet the grim reaper they (I will leave to you to quote the Quran) will not enter the pearly gates or be rewarded with virgins but will be condemned for the rest of eternity to hot and humid Macquarie Island without air conditioning or indoor plumbing. I'm not sure about the so called Sabians but if they ever existed hopefully they are at peace.

As to what really happened I am sure there are many interpretations. Yes, it was started by some nasty Popes who likely were pissed that their mistresses had cheated on them with a Jew or muslim and thousands of crusaders were no better than the nazis or jihadists of the modern era.

Where did I "first suggest Islam is a violent religion which justifies mass murder"? It may be a coincidence that the Arab muslim armies conquered their neighbors including Spain and the Levant by waging war that caused hundreds of thousands to perish. The same goes for the Ottoman muslims. Before the Christians and Muslim armies there were the Romans in that part of the world. Thus the same crap went down with war, murders, slavery before Christ or Muhammad. It was part of the human evolution of the war machine that still thrives today.
Thus, when you say
"and the other questions about religious tolerance in Holy Cross and the treatment of Muslims (evoked by the imagery of the crusades) could be a consideration", I say it is all poppycock, balderdash and just another example of political correctness gone wild. I clearly stated that the 16 muslim students at HC were there by choice even though the college is named after the symbol of the crucifixion of Jesus. No one has identified who felt unsafe or any examples of intimidation other than the term "crusaders" should now be verboten in certain conversations. Again, it is an example of the modern and non tolerant thought police. It is an example of intellectual elitism at many universities like Berkeley.
As for caring about muslims, I doubt it crosses their minds that almost all the strife and hostility in the muslim world today. ...not 1500 years ago, is perpetrated by muslim against muslim. That they are fleeing to the safety of the "west" is ironic.
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Dear Class of 72,

I am not sure where to start to explain your fatal conceptual and analytical flaws. I will go with data mining, the fallacy of claiming something to be fact first and then picking only the data that fits the alleged fact. So in your original post you claim/assume/hypothesize "they are referring to the handful of muslim students that attend Holy Cross and who make up less than 0.015 % of the student population in 2017. A HC alum even reached out to Somaliland to enroll a few students. I doubt it refers to Jewish students since the handful (as in one hand) that identified as Jewish are even fewer than Muslim students". Then you lament "So, one has to ask "who are these students that do not feel safe"??" and posit it cant be those black people by stating "Doubt it was them."
Then you aver "my suspect would be a white Christian “Islamic apologist”". Then you pontificate about the discrimination faced by Christians in Muslims lands and present the case of Saudi Arabia as the only data point and the entire enchilada that is the Muslim world. Finally your magnum opus, you unfurl a series of indiscriminate quotes, as if one was to follow your logic you are insinuating the Quran's is calling for the death of all Christians. Otherwise what is your point? Your point is pent up animosity towards Islam based on myopia and narrow-mindedness.

Unlike the term Jewish, Islam is not an identity, it is strictly a religion and Muslims identify themselves along nationality lines such as Gambian, Guineans, Turks, Tajiks, etc ... In my case i don't even identify myself along nationality and religious lines ... I am something of what Grucho Marx stated "I cannot belong to any club that would have someone like me as its member".
Click to expand...

Otherwise what is your point?

If you read and digested what you quoted you would have gotten my point:

"Again, it is an example of the modern and non tolerant thought police. It is an example of intellectual elitism at many universities like Berkeley."

Other points you could have gathered were that since the dawn of man we have waged violent war against each other.
Zoroazster, over a 1000 years before Jesus also was seen as a  "Manifestation of God". He was one of a line of prophets who have progressively revealed the Word of God to a gradually maturing humanity. Zoroaster thus shares an exalted station with Abraham, Moses, Krishna, Jesus, Muhammad, the Báb, and the founder of the Bahá'í Faith.  I respect all faiths and especially those that preach non-violence towards their fellow human beings.

You state that my "point is pent up animosity towards Islam based on myopia and narrow-mindedness".
I'll discuss that with my shrink next time I see him. But perhaps I simply pointed out that some muslims still have pent-up resentment for "westerners" and those not of their faith and have formed "armies" to try and establish an Islamic State free of infidels. I simply pointed out that they cherry pick verses of the Quran to justify their actions.
That is not my personal opinion it is fact if you have been following the battles in Syria, Iraq and Libya.
I brought up the hypocritical Saudis because it was from that dictatorial kingdom that much of the Middle East suffering emanated. It was Wahadi fundamentalist nut jobs that funded and carried out 911 which precipated much of the Middle East turmoil today.
These simple truths seem to bother many muslims today and they retreat into the defense of Islam rather than end the fighting amongst themselves so that the west can leave them to their destiny.
You suggest that at the College of the Holy Cross the school's newspaper editors, non of which are muslim, are somehow trying to remove the symbol out of consideration because Crusaders " even now could evoke real animosity,
and to foster a sense of religious tolerance in Holy Cross and the treatment of Muslims (evoked by the imagery of the crusades) could be a consideration?". Again I say perhaps you are right. But for the final time Uzi (ironic that the Uzi is used to kill as many targets as possible LOL) I think it is political correctness run amok.
Need I remind you that we denizens of this St. John's fan site have been fighting a similar battle against the "thought police" ever since they abolished our "REDMEN" nickname because it could be offending the local Shinnecock tribe selling cigarettes to minors on Long Island.

BTW, when you state "Unlike the term Jewish, Islam is not an identity, it is strictly a religion and Muslims identify themselves along nationality lines of , y, and z, Jewish people also identify themselves as American or French or Canadian on their passports just like muslims. You inadvertently showed your own defensive bias by turning some sarcastic examples of violence in the various "holy books" of the Bible and Quran into a defense of Islam. Islam shouldn't need defending as a religion. Neither should Christianity or Buddhism or Hindu. It is and always has been the "practitioners" of those faiths that either bring out the good or the bad images of their faith.

Peace be with you.
Click to expand...

As Dr Fun once said it most appropriately "It is not so much that you are wrong ... it's just that you are so tedious about it" :)
 
Dear Uzi,
I am not citing indescriminate lines from the Quran since the Quran to the non muslim appears to be rife with ancient verses that were meant for the people of the time and today is misinterpreted to suit the intended audience. ISIS has done it to recruit soldiers in its battle against civilized people of any religion. The Bible too is full of stories written in a particular time and place meant to convey a religious message.

If you are a Muslim I have no intention of singling Muslims out as mass murderers, slave traders, sexist male dominated bigots, or whatever. Christianity has no more or no less bad history or bad press in modern society. Said society inludes Hindu, Jain, Buddhist, Agnostics and hundreds of millions of traditional folk religion followers clearly identified by the Quran as "non-belivers". Unless they all have a religious epiphany before they meet the grim reaper they (I will leave to you to quote the Quran) will not enter the pearly gates or be rewarded with virgins but will be condemned for the rest of eternity to hot and humid Macquarie Island without air conditioning or indoor plumbing. I'm not sure about the so called Sabians but if they ever existed hopefully they are at peace.

As to what really happened I am sure there are many interpretations. Yes, it was started by some nasty Popes who likely were pissed that their mistresses had cheated on them with a Jew or muslim and thousands of crusaders were no better than the nazis or jihadists of the modern era.

Where did I "first suggest Islam is a violent religion which justifies mass murder"? It may be a coincidence that the Arab muslim armies conquered their neighbors including Spain and the Levant by waging war that caused hundreds of thousands to perish. The same goes for the Ottoman muslims. Before the Christians and Muslim armies there were the Romans in that part of the world. Thus the same crap went down with war, murders, slavery before Christ or Muhammad. It was part of the human evolution of the war machine that still thrives today.
Thus, when you say
"and the other questions about religious tolerance in Holy Cross and the treatment of Muslims (evoked by the imagery of the crusades) could be a consideration", I say it is all poppycock, balderdash and just another example of political correctness gone wild. I clearly stated that the 16 muslim students at HC were there by choice even though the college is named after the symbol of the crucifixion of Jesus. No one has identified who felt unsafe or any examples of intimidation other than the term "crusaders" should now be verboten in certain conversations. Again, it is an example of the modern and non tolerant thought police. It is an example of intellectual elitism at many universities like Berkeley.
As for caring about muslims, I doubt it crosses their minds that almost all the strife and hostility in the muslim world today. ...not 1500 years ago, is perpetrated by muslim against muslim. That they are fleeing to the safety of the "west" is ironic.
Click to expand...

Dear Class of 72,

I am not sure where to start to explain your fatal conceptual and analytical flaws. I will go with data mining, the fallacy of claiming something to be fact first and then picking only the data that fits the alleged fact. So in your original post you claim/assume/hypothesize "they are referring to the handful of muslim students that attend Holy Cross and who make up less than 0.015 % of the student population in 2017. A HC alum even reached out to Somaliland to enroll a few students. I doubt it refers to Jewish students since the handful (as in one hand) that identified as Jewish are even fewer than Muslim students". Then you lament "So, one has to ask "who are these students that do not feel safe"??" and posit it cant be those black people by stating "Doubt it was them."
Then you aver "my suspect would be a white Christian “Islamic apologist”". Then you pontificate about the discrimination faced by Christians in Muslims lands and present the case of Saudi Arabia as the only data point and the entire enchilada that is the Muslim world. Finally your magnum opus, you unfurl a series of indiscriminate quotes, as if one was to follow your logic you are insinuating the Quran's is calling for the death of all Christians. Otherwise what is your point? Your point is pent up animosity towards Islam based on myopia and narrow-mindedness.

Unlike the term Jewish, Islam is not an identity, it is strictly a religion and Muslims identify themselves along nationality lines such as Gambian, Guineans, Turks, Tajiks, etc ... In my case i don't even identify myself along nationality and religious lines ... I am something of what Grucho Marx stated "I cannot belong to any club that would have someone like me as its member".
Click to expand...

Otherwise what is your point?

If you read and digested what you quoted you would have gotten my point:

"Again, it is an example of the modern and non tolerant thought police. It is an example of intellectual elitism at many universities like Berkeley."

Other points you could have gathered were that since the dawn of man we have waged violent war against each other.
Zoroazster, over a 1000 years before Jesus also was seen as a  "Manifestation of God". He was one of a line of prophets who have progressively revealed the Word of God to a gradually maturing humanity. Zoroaster thus shares an exalted station with Abraham, Moses, Krishna, Jesus, Muhammad, the Báb, and the founder of the Bahá'í Faith.  I respect all faiths and especially those that preach non-violence towards their fellow human beings.

You state that my "point is pent up animosity towards Islam based on myopia and narrow-mindedness".
I'll discuss that with my shrink next time I see him. But perhaps I simply pointed out that some muslims still have pent-up resentment for "westerners" and those not of their faith and have formed "armies" to try and establish an Islamic State free of infidels. I simply pointed out that they cherry pick verses of the Quran to justify their actions.
That is not my personal opinion it is fact if you have been following the battles in Syria, Iraq and Libya.
I brought up the hypocritical Saudis because it was from that dictatorial kingdom that much of the Middle East suffering emanated. It was Wahadi fundamentalist nut jobs that funded and carried out 911 which precipated much of the Middle East turmoil today.
These simple truths seem to bother many muslims today and they retreat into the defense of Islam rather than end the fighting amongst themselves so that the west can leave them to their destiny.
You suggest that at the College of the Holy Cross the school's newspaper editors, non of which are muslim, are somehow trying to remove the symbol out of consideration because Crusaders " even now could evoke real animosity,
and to foster a sense of religious tolerance in Holy Cross and the treatment of Muslims (evoked by the imagery of the crusades) could be a consideration?". Again I say perhaps you are right. But for the final time Uzi (ironic that the Uzi is used to kill as many targets as possible LOL) I think it is political correctness run amok.
Need I remind you that we denizens of this St. John's fan site have been fighting a similar battle against the "thought police" ever since they abolished our "REDMEN" nickname because it could be offending the local Shinnecock tribe selling cigarettes to minors on Long Island.

BTW, when you state "Unlike the term Jewish, Islam is not an identity, it is strictly a religion and Muslims identify themselves along nationality lines of , y, and z, Jewish people also identify themselves as American or French or Canadian on their passports just like muslims. You inadvertently showed your own defensive bias by turning some sarcastic examples of violence in the various "holy books" of the Bible and Quran into a defense of Islam. Islam shouldn't need defending as a religion. Neither should Christianity or Buddhism or Hindu. It is and always has been the "practitioners" of those faiths that either bring out the good or the bad images of their faith.

Peace be with you.
Click to expand...

As Dr Fun once said it most appropriately "It is not so much that you are wrong ... it's just that you are so tedious about it" :)
Click to expand...

Lol! That is a true ironic statement when it comes from an attorney. :lol:
They make a living at being both tedious and wrong in the courtroom while I just prefer we use muftis and just issue fatwas and behead all the lawyers.
Depending on the reader I could wrong but the final time Uzi I closed by saying "It is and always has been the "practitioners" of those faiths that either bring out the good or the bad images of their faith."
If the hidha' fits.........
 
As I have a keen interest in The College of the Holy Cross and I visited my money (I mean daughter) over their four years on St. James Hill, let me weigh in on this topic.

There were Crusades and then there were "Crusades". The series had some that were good and some that were not so good.

So if schools with the nickname Crusaders such as Holy Cross and Bergen Catholic High School, want to keep their name let them say it refers to the better of the Crusades.

From DAY ONE my wife hated their name, being somewhat more politically correct than me. I had much more fun heading to the top of "The Hill" (over 70 stairs on this Arboretum award winning campus) to go inside the Gym and fantastic Hockey venue to admire the trophy from the HC Bob Cousy-Led, NCAA Men's BB Championship team, since SJU has no equivalent. The smallest school to win a major sport Division I National Championship. Renown NYT Sportswriter emeritus Dave Anderson was a classmate of Cousy back then a few years before some very prominent Tommy Heinsohn led teams.

I think Dave Gavitt had HC on his short list for NE teams forming the Big East.
 
Except that 2800 students,2400 if you subtract the 400 who do an entire semester abroad, does not even come close to the type of schools the Big East wants in their league. From that point alone, it was a very good decision not to include HC.

Perhaps the Crusaders keep the threat of Antifa off their campus.
 
On the subject of Cousy, it's a little strange that he has been largely forgotten as one of the best players every to come out of Queens. As a native of Springfield Gardens, he slipped by St. John's somehow, when he could have ruled NYC college basketball, which was much bigger than the NBA at the time.
 
On the subject of Cousy, it's a little strange that he has been largely forgotten as one of the best players every to come out of Queens. As a native of Springfield Gardens, he slipped by St. John's somehow, when he could have ruled NYC college basketball, which was much bigger than the NBA at the time.
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You've been around long enough to realize that St. John's ALWAYS gets a kick in the groin in any story involving a legendary player, Hawkins, Alcindor, Gary Payton.

Here's the Bob Cousy version from a biography via Wikipedia:

"The following season Julian limited Cousy's playing time, to the point that the frustrated sophomore contemplated transferring out of Holy Cross. Cousy wrote a letter to coach Joe Lapchick of St. John's University in New York, informing him that he was considering a transfer there. Lapchick wrote back to Cousy that he considered Julian "one of the finest basketball coaches in America"[21] and that he believed Julian had no bad intentions in restricting his playing time. He told Cousy that Julian would use him more often during his later years with the team. Lapchick alerted Cousy that transferring was a very risky move: according to NCAA rules, the player would be required to sit out a year before becoming eligible to play for the school to which he transferred.[22]"
 
To add some info re Cousy and SJU he wrote in his autobiography that he didn't go to SJU because he wanted to get out of NYC because he didn't get along with his stepfather but after a disappointing year at Holy Cross he wrote the letter to Lapchick saying he wanted to transfer.
When I read this I thought how recruiting has changed. Instead of writing back telling Cousy to stick it out just about all coaches would have a limo to pick him up at Holy Cross the next day.
 
Beast takes another, in a long line of, shots at a great school.

Except that 2800 students,2400 if you subtract the 400 who do an entire semester abroad, does not even come close to the type of schools the Big East wants in their league. From that point alone, it was a very good decision not to include HC.

Perhaps the Crusaders keep the threat of Antifa off their campus.
Click to expand...
 
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