HC Rankings

[quote="L J S A" post=399646]Did they list what the metrics are? Strictly X's and O's? Is recruiting given more weight than actual coaching? Based on what have you done for me lately? I'd have Anderson higher, but we do have people here on our own board grumbling about recruiting, so . . .[/quote]

When have Self and WIlliams ever gone thru ANY mediocre stretch that Jay has gone thru, and I love Jay. Answer, NEVER. And Villanova has always been a very good BE job. Let's not act like he coaches Iona. It takes a special person and remarkable consistency with UNBELIEVABLE demands to coach at a Blue Blood like Kansas and UNC. Ask Billy Clyde G after his two years at Kentucky or Matt Doherty after his 3 years at UNC. Or how Tubby was run out of town after his run at Kentucky. What Roy did at Kansas was great and what he is doing at UNC is actually BETTER than Dean. And what Self is doing at Kansas is actually better than what Roy did. That is hard to fathom. Neither would survive at his job if they had the start Jay did at Nova or went thru a pretty mediocre 2-3 yr run earlier this decade that Jay did at Nova. You do understand that? Jay was able to survive PRECISELY BECAUSE the expectations are NOT THE SAME.
 
[quote="fordham96" post=399665][You do understand that?[/quote]

I've frequently been underwhelmed by their coaching and understand that the name of the school disproportionately helps both guys get nearly any kid they want. So I understand how they win even when being outcoached. I understand that they both have vast resources, but they choose to cheat anyway. Finally, I understand that they still don't win the big one nearly as much as they should.
 
[quote="L J S A" post=399667][quote="fordham96" post=399665][You do understand that?[/quote]

I've frequently been underwhelmed by their coaching and understand that the name of the school disproportionately helps both guys get nearly any kid they want. So I understand how they win even when being outcoached. I understand that they both have vast resources, but they choose to cheat anyway. Finally, I understand that they still don't win the big one nearly as much as they should.[/quote]

There are only 3 active coaches with 2 or more National championships on their resume. I'm not including Pitino who had one vacated. And it's not like his championships happened 20 years ago. The guy is in his prime. If I had to pick one coach right now to head up my program, Jay would unequivocally be my first choice for a lot of reasons: age, morals, track record, etc etc etc How Jay isn't at least top 5 is beyond me.
 
[quote="L J S A" post=399667][quote="fordham96" post=399665][You do understand that?[/quote]

I've frequently been underwhelmed by their coaching and understand that the name of the school disproportionately helps both guys get nearly any kid they want. So I understand how they win even when being outcoached. I understand that they both have vast resources, but they choose to cheat anyway. Finally, I understand that they still don't win the big one nearly as much as they should.[/quote]

By that definition Tom Izzo with one and Dean Smith with 2 are the same or slightly better than Kevin Ollie. Come on. The NC standard is not right. It matters but it is not the most important in an era of having to win 6 straight games and so much parity. Luck plays a large role in this.

Give you an example Jay Wight has 2 in 3 years. But do you know the other 5 years in this 7 year run in the new BE he has failed to reach past the second round. The only time he has reached the Round of 16 or better are his 2 NC runs. The other 5 years he has been bounced each time in the first weekend.
 
Jim Calhoun did not become a great coach because he beat Coach K and Duke in 1999 to win his first NC. That validated his greatness.

His greatness was establishing UCONN as one of if not the BEST program in the BE (surpassing stalwarts Syracuse, Georgetown) from 90-99. Winning or sharing 6 regular season BE titles in 10 years (90, 94,95.96, 98, 99) and winning the BE tourney 4 times in that stretch (90, 96, 98, 99).
 
And again here is Jay's first 3 years at Nova. Tell me the Kansas or UNC coach that could have had a similar 3 year stretch and been able to survive:

Hofstra: 122–85 (.589) 76–47 (.618)
Villanova Wildcats (Big East Conference[a]) (2001–present)
2001–02 Villanova 19–13 7–9 5th NIT Quarterfinal
2002–03 Villanova 15–16 8–8 T–3rd NIT First Round
2003–04 Villanova 18–17 6–10 11th NIT Quarterfinal
 
Now look at this for Self specifically look at the last 20 years at Illinois and Kansas (3 at Illinois and 17 at Kansas). He has won the regular season conference championship 15 times in the last 16 years at Kansas. 15 times overall in 17 years with 1 second place and 1 3rd place. Then if you take Illinois he won the regular season B10 title 2 times in 3 years finishing 2nd once. So in 20 straight years in Power 6 coaching Bill Self has won the regular season title 17 times in 20 years. He has won 82% of his regular season games since he has been at Kansas and almost 82% of his conference games at Kansas. That is insane in terms of how good that is over a 2 decade stretch. Insane. And ironically almost everyone agreed he may have had his most complete team at KU in years this year (canceled).

Head coaching record
Statistics overview
Season Team Overall Conference Standing Postseason
Oral Roberts Golden Eagles (NCAA Division I independent) (1993–1997)
1993–94 Oral Roberts 6–21
1994–95 Oral Roberts 10–17
1995–96 Oral Roberts 18–9
1996–97 Oral Roberts 21–7 NIT First Round
Oral Roberts: 55–54 (.505)
Tulsa Golden Hurricane (Western Athletic Conference) (1997–2000)
1997–98 Tulsa 19–12 9–5 3rd (Pacific)
1998–99 Tulsa 23–10 9–5 T–1st (Mountain) NCAA Division I Second Round
1999–00 Tulsa 32–5 12–2 1st NCAA Division I Elite Eight
Tulsa: 74–27 (.733) 30–12 (.714)
Illinois Fighting Illini (Big Ten Conference) (2000–2003)
2000–01 Illinois 27–8 13–3 T–1st NCAA Division I Elite Eight
2001–02 Illinois 26–9 11–5 T–1st NCAA Division I Sweet Sixteen
2002–03 Illinois 25–7 11–5 2nd NCAA Division I Second Round
Illinois: 78–24 (.765) 35–13 (.729)
Kansas Jayhawks (Big 12 Conference) (2003–present)
2003–04 Kansas 24–9 12–4 T–2nd NCAA Division I Elite Eight
2004–05 Kansas 23–7 12–4 T–1st NCAA Division I Round of 64
2005–06 Kansas 25–8 13–3 T–1st NCAA Division I Round of 64
2006–07 Kansas 33–5 14–2 1st NCAA Division I Elite Eight
2007–08 Kansas 37–3 13–3 T–1st NCAA Division I Champion
2008–09 Kansas 27–8 14–2 1st NCAA Division I Sweet Sixteen
2009–10 Kansas 33–3 15–1 1st NCAA Division I Round of 32
2010–11 Kansas 35–3 14–2 1st NCAA Division I Elite Eight
2011–12 Kansas 32–7 16–2 1st NCAA Division I Runner-up
2012–13 Kansas 31–6 14–4 T–1st NCAA Division I Sweet Sixteen
2013–14 Kansas 25–10 14–4 1st NCAA Division I Round of 32
2014–15 Kansas 27–9 13–5 1st NCAA Division I Round of 32
2015–16 Kansas 33–5 15–3 1st NCAA Division I Elite Eight
2016–17 Kansas 31–5 16–2 1st NCAA Division I Elite Eight
2017–18 Kansas 31–8 13–5 1st NCAA Division I Final Four
2018–19 Kansas 26–10 12–6 3rd NCAA Division I Round of 32
2019–20 Kansas 28–3 17–1 1st Canceled due to COVID-19*
2020–21 Kansas
Kansas: 501–109 (.821) 236–53 (.817)
Total: 707–214 (.768)
 
Pretty amazing that Bill Self hasn't lost more than 10 games in 22 years. Talk about the epitome of constant success.
 
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[quote="fordham96" post=399690]And again here is Jay's first 3 years at Nova. Tell me the Kansas or UNC coach that could have had a similar 3 year stretch and been able to survive:

Hofstra: 122–85 (.589) 76–47 (.618)
Villanova Wildcats (Big East Conference[a]) (2001–present)
2001–02 Villanova 19–13 7–9 5th NIT Quarterfinal
2002–03 Villanova 15–16 8–8 T–3rd NIT First Round
2003–04 Villanova 18–17 6–10 11th NIT Quarterfinal[/quote]

By that rationale, look at coach K's first few years at Duke or Wooden's mediocre stretches at UCLA. Probably the 2 greatest coaches in the history of college basketball, and both had troubles along the way. I don't think anyone is knocking Self or Roy Williams, both are 2 of the greatest who ever coached. At the end of the day, one can use whatever criteria one wants to rank these coaches. I would probably rank them K, Williams, Jay, Self, Izzo. Pitino would be #2 if not for his vacated championship, etc etc. But IMO there has to huge emphasis put on # of national championships.
 
FWIW

Kansas:
Seasons: 122 (1898-99 to 2019-20)

Record: 2302-862 .728 W-L%

Conferences: Big 12, Big 8, Big 7, Big 6, MVC and Ind

Conference Champion: 62 Times (Reg. Seas.), 15 Times (Tourn.)

NCAA Tournament: 48 Years (108-47), 15 Final Fours, 3 Championships

NCAA Champion: 1952, 1988 and 2008

Ranked in AP Poll: 43 Times (Preseason), 45 Times (Final), 785 Weeks (Total)

Nova:
Seasons: 100 (1920-21 to 2019-20)

Record: 1803-942 .657 W-L%

Conferences: Big East, EAA, ECBL and Ind

Conference Champion: 13 Times (Reg. Seas.), 7 Times (Tourn.)

NCAA Tournament: 39 Years (65-37), 6 Final Fours, 3 Championships

NCAA Champion: 1985, 2016 and 2018

Ranked in AP Poll: 20 Times (Preseason), 24 Times (Final), 403 Weeks (Total)
 
Kansas is like Ray's Pizza. They claim to be the birthplace of basketball (along with Canada, Massachusetts, NY, Mexico and the YMCA. Vanderbilt who claims to have invented it for College). Regardless of who is the original (I'm going with Mexico), Kansas has great pizza. Actually they have terrible pizza but definitely a cornerstone of college basketball moreso than any of the great modern programs. Best coach in college basketball right now, to me is Jay Wright.
 
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[quote="Monte" post=399694][quote="fordham96" post=399690]And again here is Jay's first 3 years at Nova. Tell me the Kansas or UNC coach that could have had a similar 3 year stretch and been able to survive:

Hofstra: 122–85 (.589) 76–47 (.618)
Villanova Wildcats (Big East Conference[a]) (2001–present)
2001–02 Villanova 19–13 7–9 5th NIT Quarterfinal
2002–03 Villanova 15–16 8–8 T–3rd NIT First Round
2003–04 Villanova 18–17 6–10 11th NIT Quarterfinal[/quote]

By that rationale, look at coach K's first few years at Duke or Wooden's mediocre stretches at UCLA. Probably the 2 greatest coaches in the history of college basketball, and both had troubles along the way. I don't think anyone is knocking Self or Roy Williams, both are 2 of the greatest who ever coached. At the end of the day, one can use whatever criteria one wants to rank these coaches. I would probably rank them K, Williams, Jay, Self, Izzo. Pitino would be #2 if not for his vacated championship, etc etc. But IMO there has to huge emphasis put on # of national championships.[/quote]

Almost forgot Cal. Putting aside all his cheating, I'd put him at #4 and bump Self to #5.
 
[quote="Paul Massell" post=399696]Kansas is like Ray's Pizza. They claim to be the birthplace of basketball (along with Canada, Massachusetts, NY, Mexico and the YMCA. Vanderbilt who claims to have invented it for College). Regardless of who is the original (I'm going with Mexico), Kansas has great pizza. Actually they have terrible pizza but definitely a cornerstone of college basketball moreso than any of the great modern programs. Best coach in college basketball right now, to me is Jay Wright.[/quote]

Agreed. K the greatest active coach over a career, Jay the very best at the moment.
 
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[quote="fordham96" post=399665]
When have Self and WIlliams ever gone thru ANY mediocre stretch that Jay has gone thru.......[/quote]

Is that the same Roy Williams who devised the losing strategy that allowed Ryan Arcidiacono to dribble the length of the floor with 4.3 seconds remaining and pass to defeat UNC in the championship game?

If Old Boy Roy was as sharp as you would have us believe then he would have not allowed Arcidiacono to dribble the length of the court relatively unimpeded and caused Arcidiacono to pass the ball before half court.

 
[quote="Monte" post=399699][quote="Paul Massell" post=399696]Kansas is like Ray's Pizza. They claim to be the birthplace of basketball (along with Canada, Massachusetts, NY, Mexico and the YMCA. Vanderbilt who claims to have invented it for College). Regardless of who is the original (I'm going with Mexico), Kansas has great pizza. Actually they have terrible pizza but definitely a cornerstone of college basketball moreso than any of the great modern programs. Best coach in college basketball right now, to me is Jay Wright.[/quote]

Agreed. K the greatest active coach over a career, Jay the very best at the moment.[/quote]

Greatest college coach, hands down, was Bobby Knight. An obviously serious a$$hole side to him but he competed with all the greats without cheating and the same can be said for Wright. All the others, K, Wooden, etc. talked the talk but at the end of the day, they were cheaters. For my money, that takes them out of the conversation. Great records but asterisks besides all of them for me.
 
[quote="otis" post=399700][quote="fordham96" post=399665]
When have Self and WIlliams ever gone thru ANY mediocre stretch that Jay has gone thru.......[/quote]

Is that the same Roy Williams who devised the losing strategy that allowed Ryan Arcidiacono to dribble the length of the floor with 4.3 seconds remaining and pass to defeat UNC in the championship game?

If Old Boy Roy was as sharp as you would have us believe then he would have not allowed Arcidiacono to dribble the length of the court relatively unimpeded and caused Arcidiacono to pass the ball before half court.

[/quote]

I don't have any soft spot for Villanova, but I can watch Jenkins shot a thousand times and still get a happy feeling;. Partly because it's Big East first once the dance starts. Mostly because the NCAA tournament is the greatest post-season sporting event in all of America. If St. John's could ever win a NCAA championship, I gather it would mean more to all of us than a dozen Knicks championships.
 
[quote="Logen" post=399701][quote="Monte" post=399699][quote="Paul Massell" post=399696]Kansas is like Ray's Pizza. They claim to be the birthplace of basketball (along with Canada, Massachusetts, NY, Mexico and the YMCA. Vanderbilt who claims to have invented it for College). Regardless of who is the original (I'm going with Mexico), Kansas has great pizza. Actually they have terrible pizza but definitely a cornerstone of college basketball moreso than any of the great modern programs. Best coach in college basketball right now, to me is Jay Wright.[/quote]

Agreed. K the greatest active coach over a career, Jay the very best at the moment.[/quote]

Greatest college coach, hands down, was Bobby Knight. An obviously serious a$$hole side to him but he competed with all the greats without cheating and the same can be said for Wright. All the others, K, Wooden, etc. talked the talk but at the end of the day, they were cheaters. For my money, that takes them out of the conversation. Great records but asterisks besides all of them for me.[/quote]

Don't disagree, the problem is how do you(not you, per se) qualify "cheating"? And then even within "cheating", there are degrees. No doubt that John Wooden would not have been John Wooden without Sam Gilbert, but I'm sure coach K and all the others have their own Sam Gilbert(s), to one extent or another. Would have to consider Jay one of the most, if not the most, ethical of all the big name coaches. But I wouldn't go so far as to give any of the high D1 coaches a complete pass on "cheating".
 
[quote="Monte" post=399710][quote="Logen" post=399701][quote="Monte" post=399699][quote="Paul Massell" post=399696]Kansas is like Ray's Pizza. They claim to be the birthplace of basketball (along with Canada, Massachusetts, NY, Mexico and the YMCA. Vanderbilt who claims to have invented it for College). Regardless of who is the original (I'm going with Mexico), Kansas has great pizza. Actually they have terrible pizza but definitely a cornerstone of college basketball moreso than any of the great modern programs. Best coach in college basketball right now, to me is Jay Wright.[/quote]

Agreed. K the greatest active coach over a career, Jay the very best at the moment.[/quote]

Greatest college coach, hands down, was Bobby Knight. An obviously serious a$$hole side to him but he competed with all the greats without cheating and the same can be said for Wright. All the others, K, Wooden, etc. talked the talk but at the end of the day, they were cheaters. For my money, that takes them out of the conversation. Great records but asterisks besides all of them for me.[/quote]

But I wouldn't go so far as to give any of the high D1 coaches a complete pass on "cheating".[/quote]

My take as well.
 
[quote="Monte" post=399694][quote="fordham96" post=399690] Pitino would be #2 if not for his vacated championship, etc etc.[/quote]

He either won it or he didn’t. Unless there’s a time machine I don’t know about. Pitino is just bad at hiding it, but he just does what all college coaches do at the highest level. Best believe Duke/Coach K paid Zion Williamson to go there.
 
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[quote="Monte" post=399694][quote="fordham96" post=399690]And again here is Jay's first 3 years at Nova. Tell me the Kansas or UNC coach that could have had a similar 3 year stretch and been able to survive:

Hofstra: 122–85 (.589) 76–47 (.618)
Villanova Wildcats (Big East Conference[a]) (2001–present)
2001–02 Villanova 19–13 7–9 5th NIT Quarterfinal
2002–03 Villanova 15–16 8–8 T–3rd NIT First Round
2003–04 Villanova 18–17 6–10 11th NIT Quarterfinal[/quote]

By that rationale, look at coach K's first few years at Duke or Wooden's mediocre stretches at UCLA. Probably the 2 greatest coaches in the history of college basketball, and both had troubles along the way. I don't think anyone is knocking Self or Roy Williams, both are 2 of the greatest who ever coached. At the end of the day, one can use whatever criteria one wants to rank these coaches. I would probably rank them K, Williams, Jay, Self, Izzo. Pitino would be #2 if not for his vacated championship, etc etc. But IMO there has to huge emphasis put on # of national championships.[/quote]

It's one thing to take over a storied basketball program like UNC or Kansas and have success there, and completely another thing to elevate a program the way Wright has. Coach K did elevate Duke basletball, Boeheim did elevate Syracuse, although both were historically good programs. Calhoun and Thompson took mediocre to poor programs and made them championship caliber. Knight put Indiana in the top 10 consistently, and they have struggled since. Wooden raised UCLA to unbelievable, never to be repeated heights.
 
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