Facilities Development

[monte]

Outside of budget to do so, and future of MSG/UBS, I think the answer to how many casual (non-die hard) alums/fans WON'T go back to CA after attending because of the bleacher seating is an important consideration.

Hardest part to any sales business is getting a customer, the next hardest part is satisfying them enough that they remain loyal and return, and also recommend to a friend.

A win can be thrilling, but if the experience is less than rewarding, it can be a detractor.

I partially agree with you.   I saw in bleachers until very very recently.  I never had a problem with them.   Considering how many times my coat or sweater fell below the old wooden bleachers, the upgrade from flat wooden bleachers to molded plastic seats was actually an improvement.    I got to know just about all the people surrounding me in the bleachers, and saw little boys who accompanied their dads and sometimes moms grow into teenagers, college aged, and young adults.

One thing is for certain.  If we were starting from scratch today we'd have a larger on campus arena with seat backs, likely at a much higher ticket price.   You can still go to an on campus game for a cost equivalent to going to the movies, and you can't do that for a professional NBA game.   Money aside, I'd rather see a St Johns game, where most games really matter.   

I do believe that if you snapped your fingers and suddenly there were seat backs at CA, most of our TV viewing audience would still not buy season tickets.



 

Beast, I noticed you've often commented on here how fans would rather watch on TV then attend games. Here's something I'd ask you to consider. Most members on this board, who represent many of the die hard fans, don't even live in the NYC area anymore. Additionally, after 20+ years of futility, there are very few "die hard" fans left who'd go out of their way to attend every game. You mention the term "start from scratch" with regard to the facilities, well I'd recommend the administration should start from scratch when it comes to building the fan base for this program.

Great post 112. I know you're a lot younger then many of us on the board, and you're also one of the most knowledgeable and level headed posters. So your insight and perspective is really appreciated. I can't speak for anyone else but myself, but at this point in my life I'm not driving for an hour to and from CA, to sit in an uncomfortable arena and watch a mediocre team. If I was 30 years younger, my boys and I would have season tickets and go to the games just for the fun of it. In fact, 30 years ago my friends and I had season tickets and we kept them even during the Mahoney years when the team wasn't doing well. The sense was then was that the situation was just temporary. Besides, what did we care, we got drunk(at MSG, and before the CA games) and had a blast anyway. Now I'm much older, my friends are much more spread out and much less likely to attend games. I no longer have the  sense that our situation is just temporary. 20 + years will do that to you. I always have hope, but I have a lot less hope than some on this board. So, until I see real signs(not talk) that a real change is coming, I'll sit in the comfort of my living room and root for our team. 

 

[beast of the east]

Outside of budget to do so, and future of MSG/UBS, I think the answer to how many casual (non-die hard) alums/fans WON'T go back to CA after attending because of the bleacher seating is an important consideration.

Hardest part to any sales business is getting a customer, the next hardest part is satisfying them enough that they remain loyal and return, and also recommend to a friend.

A win can be thrilling, but if the experience is less than rewarding, it can be a detractor.

I partially agree with you.   I saw in bleachers until very very recently.  I never had a problem with them.   Considering how many times my coat or sweater fell below the old wooden bleachers, the upgrade from flat wooden bleachers to molded plastic seats was actually an improvement.    I got to know just about all the people surrounding me in the bleachers, and saw little boys who accompanied their dads and sometimes moms grow into teenagers, college aged, and young adults.

One thing is for certain.  If we were starting from scratch today we'd have a larger on campus arena with seat backs, likely at a much higher ticket price.   You can still go to an on campus game for a cost equivalent to going to the movies, and you can't do that for a professional NBA game.   Money aside, I'd rather see a St Johns game, where most games really matter.   

I do believe that if you snapped your fingers and suddenly there were seat backs at CA, most of our TV viewing audience would still not buy season tickets.



 

Beast, I noticed you've often commented on here how fans would rather watch on TV then attend games. Here's something I'd ask you to consider. Most members on this board, who represent many of the die hard fans, don't even live in the NYC area anymore. Additionally, after 20+ years of futility, there are very few "die hard" fans left who'd go out of their way to attend every game. You mention the term "start from scratch" with regard to the facilities, well I'd recommend the administration should start from scratch when it comes to building the fan base for this program.

I point out in nearly every post concerning that we have a ton of out of area folks who live and die with every game, most of whom  were season ticket holder or frequently attended games while in the area.   I also acknowledge that buying tickets is an economic decision and a personal one.   

I've also mentioned that I'm a strong advocate of SJU not expending efforts on those who no longer attend games, whether it be out of disinterest, unhappiness, distance, economics or whatever their reasoning is.  The emphasis is focusing efforts on ticket sales to students and younger alums rather than an older fan base who have already said no for years.   When we win sufficiently, some of the older fans will jump back in I'm sure.   

The issue I have is that many of those same people who don't support the school are very angry about how the school should spend money it doesn't have.   The mantra "You have to spend money to make money" is ridiculous when you don't have the money to spend.   Facilities need upgrades to attract collegians than are near world class athletes.   However, to build a new arena in the hopes that fans will come is blatantly ridiculous when we cannot fill either a 5000 seat on campus arena, or a 19000 world class facility in MSG.

The priority will and should be to improve our athletic facilities, which I am assured are the 11th of 11 Big East teams.   Only DePaul has worse attendance, which is frankly embarrassing considering DePaul hasn't made the NCAA tournament in 30 years (1992) and since 2010 we've been there 10 times, and most recently finished 4th in conference.

 

[paultzman]

Last I looked every fan has to answer to themselves and make decisions re tickets, attending games, flying back to NYC (in my case) a few times a year (thx to tickets from my guy Panther, others) & supporting program financially. I need no reminders on a fan board w such great frequency, but guess it is with good intentions. Go Johnnies! 

 

[beast of the east]

Last I looked every fan has to answer to themselves and make decisions re tickets, attending games, flying back to NYC (in my case) a few times a year (thx to tickets from my guy Panther, others) & supporting program financially. I need no reminders on a fan board w such great frequency, but guess it is with good intentions. Go Johnnies! 

Nearly every topic that is related to any business of the university, whether it be to fire a coach with 3.5 years remaining on his original contract which has now been extended, to improving facilities, or improving the arena, all comes down to money.   Our followers perpetually offer solutions that cost money.   Schools that are public institutions have a real advantage in NCAA sports.  Private schools have difficulty attaining perpetual success and those that recently have such as Duke and Villanova tend to be extremely well funded by their donor base.  

As tiresome as it is for followers of our program to hear that it all comes down to money and that their support is needed in even small amounts, it's tiresome to hear on a daily basis these issues addressed in a highly critical manner by those unwilling or unable to provide that support.   

The answers my friend are very simple.   The more monetary support SJU has, the better we are able to compete in athletics.   It's a broken record response to a broken record criticism, which is why a social media platform like redmen.com is much more effective when it meets the guidelines published on this site - to support the program and the school in a positive manner.

As one of our more balanced posters, you would probably not be surprised that people who actually attend games and support fundraising activities feel much differently about our program than some of the feelings expressed here.   To each his own though.   I would offer that supporting the school, while a highly personal decision, is not part of the problem as some would suggest, but part of the solution.

 

[paultzman]

Last I looked every fan has to answer to themselves and make decisions re tickets, attending games, flying back to NYC (in my case) a few times a year (thx to tickets from my guy Panther, others) & supporting program financially. I need no reminders on a fan board w such great frequency, but guess it is with good intentions. Go Johnnies! 

Nearly every topic that is related to any business of the university, whether it be to fire a coach with 3.5 years remaining on his original contract which has now been extended, to improving facilities, or improving the arena, all comes down to money.   Our followers perpetually offer solutions that cost money.   Schools that are public institutions have a real advantage in NCAA sports.  Private schools have difficulty attaining perpetual success and those that recently have such as Duke and Villanova tend to be extremely well funded by their donor base.  

As tiresome as it is for followers of our program to hear that it all comes down to money and that their support is needed in even small amounts, it's tiresome to hear on a daily basis these issues addressed in a highly critical manner by those unwilling or unable to provide that support.   

The answers my friend are very simple.   The more monetary support SJU has, the better we are able to compete in athletics.   It's a broken record response to a broken record criticism, which is why a social media platform like redmen.com is much more effective when it meets the guidelines published on this site - to support the program and the school in a positive manner.

As one of our more balanced posters, you would probably not be surprised that people who actually attend games and support fundraising activities feel much differently about our program than some of the feelings expressed here.   To each his own though.   I would offer that supporting the school, while a highly personal decision, is not part of the problem as some would suggest, but part of the solution.

I think your point has been clear for some time 

 

[monte]

For a school that cries poverty so much, it always astounds me how they find the funds to throw around extensions and raises. Guess I'm old school, I always thought that a contract extension with a raise comes AFTER you've actually achieved some level of success. OTOH it's easy to throw around money when it's not yours. 

 

[IDRAFT]

Last I looked every fan has to answer to themselves and make decisions re tickets, attending games, flying back to NYC (in my case) a few times a year (thx to tickets from my guy Panther, others) & supporting program financially. I need no reminders on a fan board w such great frequency, but guess it is with good intentions. Go Johnnies! 

I agree. Fans are consumers, to go to games or not is a personal choice. But it is equally tiresome to read posts complaining about the state of Carnesecca from people who only watch the games on TV. Broadway theaters are notoriously uncomfortable, a fact I was reminded of last week when I attended a play. I've never heard a person who does not attend the theater and only watches TV complain about it though. Why would they?

 

[Anthony Mattia]

I've been reminded that at Cameron Indoor stadium, Duke fans sit on bleachers and they sell out all the time.   Winning does that for you.


 

This is true, but also true is that Cameron Indoor only has bleachers on 1 side.  The other is nothing but students standing on risers about 8 levels deep.  I have been repeatedly told that the season tickets won't stand for the students getting the lower level to create that atmosphere so bringing up Cameron Indoor is pointless.  Winning or not, we will never have that kind of home court advantage or atmosphere.

 

[beast of the east]

For a school that cries poverty so much, it always astounds me how they find the funds to throw around extensions and raises. Guess I'm old school, I always thought that a contract extension with a raise comes AFTER you've actually achieved some level of success. OTOH it's easy to throw around money when it's not yours. 

 

You appear to know far more about the circumstances that precipitated an extension, and the contractual details of raises, guaranteed money than I do.  

Ask any SJU employee about how the university "throws around" money.  They don't.  It's all very carefully spent.

 

[RedStormNC]

Beast - What is your take as to how a school like Seton Hall can raise capital for improvements through $100M + bonds

[URL]https://www.thesetonian.com/article/2020/05/seton-hall-approved-for-109-million-in-revenue-bonds-to-go-toward-new-dorm-to-replace-turrell-additional-renovations[/URL]]Seton Hall approved for $109 million in revenue bonds to go toward new dorm to replace Turrell, additional renovations - The Setonian[/url]

I agree with most of your points on fan base, CA upgrades etc.  The only thing I disagree with is the much heavier emphasis you have on the fans donating to fund the majority.  Conceptually I get it, but I truly believe the school needs to see it as an investment that will help them fund all the other academic and infrastructure needs.    

The basketball program should be treated with the same, if not more focus as their desire to improve law, health sciences, business school etc.

I think we just differ on seeing it as a need to invest and priority vs. waiting to collect a lot of $50 -$500 checks from alums that more often than not don't care.





 

 

[kranmars]

Last I looked every fan has to answer to themselves and make decisions re tickets, attending games, flying back to NYC (in my case) a few times a year (thx to tickets from my guy Panther, others) & supporting program financially. I need no reminders on a fan board w such great frequency, but guess it is with good intentions. Go Johnnies! 

Nearly every topic that is related to any business of the university, whether it be to fire a coach with 3.5 years remaining on his original contract which has now been extended, to improving facilities, or improving the arena, all comes down to money.   Our followers perpetually offer solutions that cost money.   Schools that are public institutions have a real advantage in NCAA sports.  Private schools have difficulty attaining perpetual success and those that recently have such as Duke and Villanova tend to be extremely well funded by their donor base.  

As tiresome as it is for followers of our program to hear that it all comes down to money and that their support is needed in even small amounts, it's tiresome to hear on a daily basis these issues addressed in a highly critical manner by those unwilling or unable to provide that support.   

The answers my friend are very simple.   The more monetary support SJU has, the better we are able to compete in athletics.   It's a broken record response to a broken record criticism, which is why a social media platform like redmen.com is much more effective when it meets the guidelines published on this site - to support the program and the school in a positive manner.

As one of our more balanced posters, you would probably not be surprised that people who actually attend games and support fundraising activities feel much differently about our program than some of the feelings expressed here.   To each his own though.   I would offer that supporting the school, while a highly personal decision, is not part of the problem as some would suggest, but part of the solution.

Your response comes across as if it is the haves v. the have nots. Only those who donate get to post their opinions about improvements?

God bless, that you can give to the school, but not everyone can. But their opinions are no less valuable here. Since nearly every issue is money related, should we moderate according to donation status? If so, this will be one very boring place.

 

[beast of the east]

Beast - What is your take as to how a school like Seton Hall can raise capital for improvements through $100M + bonds

[URL]https://www.thesetonian.com/article/2020/05/seton-hall-approved-for-109-million-in-revenue-bonds-to-go-toward-new-dorm-to-replace-turrell-additional-renovations[/URL]]Seton Hall approved for $109 million in revenue bonds to go toward new dorm to replace Turrell, additional renovations - The Setonian[/url]

I agree with most of your points on fan base, CA upgrades etc.  The only thing I disagree with is the much heavier emphasis you have on the fans donating to fund the majority.  Conceptually I get it, but I truly believe the school needs to see it as an investment that will help them fund all the other academic and infrastructure needs.    

The basketball program should be treated with the same, if not more focus as their desire to improve law, health sciences, business school etc.

I think we just differ on seeing it as a need to invest and priority vs. waiting to collect a lot of $50 -$500 checks from alums that more often than not don't care.







 

SJU has a bond for the Health Sciences building.   The current building is antiquated plus we are adding two new majors.   there is a revenue stream from tuition, room and board that will follow.  I am involved with the college of pharmacy and in fact has a fund raising meeting coming up, but with the recent resignation of Dean DiGate who I liked a lot, I'm not sure what percentage of that bond debt will be paid by alums.   Typically pharmacists start out with a good salary and it stays flat the rest of their careers.   Comparatively I can't tell you much.

To make an investment in new dorms is actually revenue producing without question.   When my son was at Boston College they constructed new dormitories for seniors to attract students back onto campus (at BC kids move off campus junior year, then many return for senior year).    By building new dorms with modern amenities, revenues actually increase.   My son lived in a dorm sophomore year that was formerly for upperclassmen, but it was an older apartment style living.   BC actually tore the structurally sound building down after my son's sophomore year in favor of the new dorm.

Athletics in my opinion is a different proposition.  While certain sports are revenue producing (we have one),  building out athletic facilities or a new arena does not guarantee revenue.   On the other hand, not improving facilities does guarantee you are behind the 8 ball recruiting and attracting the most talented players.   Actually when your facilities are worse than many mid major programs, 3 stars aren't easy to attract either.    I would say the likelihood is that the plan to improve facilities will get approved..  I believe phase 2 of the athletic department capital improvement plan will include significant renovations to CA that will include - gasp - more seating and seat backs.    Again, neither facilities nor a better arena will guarantee revenue, since teams have to win and as our fan base continually exclaims, they have to be convinced.  4th place Big East finishes and 1 or 2 tournament bids every 4-5 years is not enough to reinvigorate older fans.

I do think Shanley will initiate the facilities project, but that depending on how donors respond, phase 2 may or may not happen.   An incredibly large donation is being contemplated right now and my fingers are crossed.  
  
 I've been told that major donors tend to migrate towards academic areas rather than athletics, at least at St. JOhns, with some notable exceptions over time.   It makes the academic initiatives more credible.   Regarding any expenditures by Seton Hall in athletics, they are selling out their arena, making it a little easier to spend.   I'm not sure about their major donors in that area.

 

[beast of the east]

Last I looked every fan has to answer to themselves and make decisions re tickets, attending games, flying back to NYC (in my case) a few times a year (thx to tickets from my guy Panther, others) & supporting program financially. I need no reminders on a fan board w such great frequency, but guess it is with good intentions. Go Johnnies! 

Nearly every topic that is related to any business of the university, whether it be to fire a coach with 3.5 years remaining on his original contract which has now been extended, to improving facilities, or improving the arena, all comes down to money.   Our followers perpetually offer solutions that cost money.   Schools that are public institutions have a real advantage in NCAA sports.  Private schools have difficulty attaining perpetual success and those that recently have such as Duke and Villanova tend to be extremely well funded by their donor base.  

As tiresome as it is for followers of our program to hear that it all comes down to money and that their support is needed in even small amounts, it's tiresome to hear on a daily basis these issues addressed in a highly critical manner by those unwilling or unable to provide that support.   

The answers my friend are very simple.   The more monetary support SJU has, the better we are able to compete in athletics.   It's a broken record response to a broken record criticism, which is why a social media platform like redmen.com is much more effective when it meets the guidelines published on this site - to support the program and the school in a positive manner.

As one of our more balanced posters, you would probably not be surprised that people who actually attend games and support fundraising activities feel much differently about our program than some of the feelings expressed here.   To each his own though.   I would offer that supporting the school, while a highly personal decision, is not part of the problem as some would suggest, but part of the solution.

Your response comes across as if it is the haves v. the have nots. Only those who donate get to post their opinions about improvements?

God bless, that you can give to the school, but not everyone can. But their opinions are no less valuable here. Since nearly every issue is money related, should we moderate according to donation status? If so, this will be one very boring place.

not true, but you are free to express that opinion.   What I am saying is that our fans sometimes do not realize that nothing will happen unless fans donate, and to be critical of the stinginess of the school, when how the school spends money is directly related to funds raised, you end up pointing the finger in the mirror.

The seat back topic falls into a big pile of CA complaints which makes it very frustrating

1) seat backs
2) tickets too expensive
3) parking is difficult
4) traffic is difficult
5) Mass transit is difficult
6) games start too early
7) games start too late
8) It gets too hot
9) overall the facility is a dump

Did I leave anything out?   What is bothersome is that even we changed the thing someone is most complaining about they will switch to another reason.   If we renovate the arena, or add seat backs, ticket prices will go up, and then the complaint will be that.    

You are 100% right about one thing.  Here there opinions are no less valuable, because here opinions have no value.   They can't be monetized, and they don't shape any action whatsoever.  But I can tell you, negative opinions about the school, coaches, or staff hurts recruiting, and yes, every single player and coach is aware of this site.

 

[19854ever]

Beast,

Could it be argued that funds were misspent by the Harrington and Gempesaw administrations on coaches and assistant coaches who did not deliver ? Was money left on the table back in 2004 when Norm was hired ? Was money left on the table again when Mike Repole voiced his concerns more recently? Did Fr Harrington mismanage the University for many years? Did Bobby Gempesaw mismanage as well? 

Fans/alumni have reasons to be skeptical about the direction of the school and the athletic program.  Right now we do not know the master plan for the school because last I checked it’s not fleshed out yet?

Will alumni hall be improved upon? will we move games to UBS ? What’s out status currently with MSG? 

More questions than answers right now and fans/alumni have a right to be frustrated. Why invest in a school and a program right now in which there is no clear direction just a talk of a committee. The last crack committee I remember the school having brought up the great idea of hiring Norm Roberts.

 

[monte]

Well then maybe our SJU should take a lesson from the other SJU, and start a fundraising campaign specifically earmarked for new facilities:

https://atlantic10.com/news/2021/6/...ign-for-reimagined-sju-athletics-complex.aspx

While we're dicking around with gimmicks, other schools are taking real steps to improve their situations 
 

 

[beast of the east]

Beast,

Could it be argued that funds were misspent by the Harrington and Gempesaw administrations on coaches and assistant coaches who did not deliver ? Was money left on the table back in 2004 when Norm was hired ? Was money left on the table again when Mike Repole voiced his concerns more recently? Did Fr Harrington mismanage the University for many years? Did Bobby Gempesaw mismanage as well? 

Fans/alumni have reasons to be skeptical about the direction of the school and the athletic program.  Right now we do not know the master plan for the school because last I checked it’s not fleshed out yet?

Will alumni hall be improved upon? will we move games to UBS ? What’s out status currently with MSG? 

More questions than answers right now and fans/alumni have a right to be frustrated. Why invest in a school and a program right now in which there is no clear direction just a talk of a committee. The last crack committee I remember the school having brought up the great idea of hiring Norm Roberts.

PM me. we can chat more if you want.  

 

[IDRAFT]

Last I looked every fan has to answer to themselves and make decisions re tickets, attending games, flying back to NYC (in my case) a few times a year (thx to tickets from my guy Panther, others) & supporting program financially. I need no reminders on a fan board w such great frequency, but guess it is with good intentions. Go Johnnies! 

Nearly every topic that is related to any business of the university, whether it be to fire a coach with 3.5 years remaining on his original contract which has now been extended, to improving facilities, or improving the arena, all comes down to money.   Our followers perpetually offer solutions that cost money.   Schools that are public institutions have a real advantage in NCAA sports.  Private schools have difficulty attaining perpetual success and those that recently have such as Duke and Villanova tend to be extremely well funded by their donor base.  

As tiresome as it is for followers of our program to hear that it all comes down to money and that their support is needed in even small amounts, it's tiresome to hear on a daily basis these issues addressed in a highly critical manner by those unwilling or unable to provide that support.   

The answers my friend are very simple.   The more monetary support SJU has, the better we are able to compete in athletics.   It's a broken record response to a broken record criticism, which is why a social media platform like redmen.com is much more effective when it meets the guidelines published on this site - to support the program and the school in a positive manner.

As one of our more balanced posters, you would probably not be surprised that people who actually attend games and support fundraising activities feel much differently about our program than some of the feelings expressed here.   To each his own though.   I would offer that supporting the school, while a highly personal decision, is not part of the problem as some would suggest, but part of the solution.

Your response comes across as if it is the haves v. the have nots. Only those who donate get to post their opinions about improvements?

God bless, that you can give to the school, but not everyone can. But their opinions are no less valuable here. Since nearly every issue is money related, should we moderate according to donation status? If so, this will be one very boring place.

not true, but you are free to express that opinion.   What I am saying is that our fans sometimes do not realize that nothing will happen unless fans donate, and to be critical of the stinginess of the school, when how the school spends money is directly related to funds raised, you end up pointing the finger in the mirror.

The seat back topic falls into a big pile of CA complaints which makes it very frustrating

1) seat backs
2) tickets too expensive
3) parking is difficult
4) traffic is difficult
5) Mass transit is difficult
6) games start too early
7) games start too late
8) It gets too hot
9) overall the facility is a dump

Did I leave anything out?   What is bothersome is that even we changed the thing someone is most complaining about they will switch to another reason.   If we renovate the arena, or add seat backs, ticket prices will go up, and then the complaint will be that.    

You are 100% right about one thing.  Here there opinions are no less valuable, because here opinions have no value.   They can't be monetized, and they don't shape any action whatsoever.  But I can tell you, negative opinions about the school, coaches, or staff hurts recruiting, and yes, every single player and coach is aware of this site.

You left out no beer at Carnesecca! 

 

[monte]

I'll tell you guys this much, those bench seats at CA are a whole lot less uncomfortable when we have a winning program. Say what you will, winning cures a lot of what ails us. 

 

[beast of the east]

I'll tell you guys this much, those bench seats at CA are a whole lot less uncomfortable when we have a winning program. Say what you will, winning cures a lot of what ails us. 

1000%

 

[GardenCity62]

CA has always been a cramped uncomfortable arena to watch a game. However for many years the Sly Fox Inn was open and one could spend an hour there pre game getting fortified before going across the street to CA.
Once it closed CA just seems hotter and more cramped.