Not really sure what you expect; you rail against players you don't like (see Pointer as a prime example) blaming them for the team failure when in reality this group of players and coaches just have not jelled in 4 years. By and large the team lacks the committed effort to the dirty things (D, loose balls, rebounding) that wins basketball games. Their effort and performance in big games i.e end of year conference games, BE tournament, etc. has been poor, just poor. I root for the team every game but will not analyze through rose colored glasses ever. Outside of Harrison, I am not sure there is a player on the team that is concerned with winning over personal goals, and I am just not talking about getting to the pros although that is part of it. Bottom line for me, as I have said, I find this group of players and coaches hard to root for because of the bed they made; no other reason. I exclude Harrison who I have a ton of respect for, which is a 180 from my early opinion of him; just ask Moose. I understand the frustration of coming on the board and reading the same posts over but your posts are also very predictable. The truth is this is the same team we have seen for the last 4 years, hence the same opinions. Doesn't mean we aren't rooting. just means we comment on what we see, just as you do. We just see the same things as you only differently.
Expectations
- Thread starter Marillac
- Start date
Not really sure what you expect; you rail against players you don't like (see Pointer as a prime example) blaming them for the team failure when in reality this group of players and coaches just have not jelled in 4 years. By and large the team lacks the committed effort to the dirty things (D, loose balls, rebounding) that wins basketball games. Their effort and performance in big games i.e end of year conference games, BE tournament, etc. has been poor, just poor. I root for the team every game but will not analyze through rose colored glasses ever. Outside of Harrison, I am not sure there is a player on the team that is concerned with winning over personal goals, and I am just not talking about getting to the pros although that is part of it. Bottom line for me, as I have said, I find this group of players and coaches hard to root for because of the bed they made; no other reason. I exclude Harrison who I have a ton of respect for, which is a 180 from my early opinion of him; just ask Moose. I understand the frustration of coming on the board and reading the same posts over but your posts are also very predictable. The truth is this is the same team we have seen for the last 4 years, hence the same opinions. Doesn't mean we aren't rooting. just means we comment on what we see, just as you do. We just see the same things as you only differently.
indyredmen97
Member
I nearly responded to this post at different points last night/this morning (I had to pull an all nighter at work for a colleague), but found the threat of falling asleep so great that I put on the 1/99 St. John's vs. Duke game on Youtube to see if might keep me awake. While it helped a bit, it also changed what I sought to comment about expectations for this season. I hate to say this, but only Obekpa and perhaps Harrison could have seen the floor for any significant time for St. John's on that team. Obekpa for his size and shot blocking, but the others members wouldn't contribute solely for their style of play (and yes I'm aware that no one on this team has Artest's skill set). My expectations of this team is low because of the individuality of their games and their lack of discipline on defense. Physically Lavor Postell (my favorite on that team though I loved them all) is not much more gifted than Pointer, but their approach is so different that there's no comparison between the two players. Those guys made dumb plays too, but they worked so hard as a unit that they could overcome forced shots and mental mistakes, we simply don't have that sort of discipline and character. Watching Erick Barkley's play as a freshman shows you all you need know about what a difference what's between the ears of a point guard can mean to a team, and not what others believe you should do to advance professionally. I love D'Angelo and really hope for his sake that this team can make it to the dance, and I'm rooting like hell for the team to achieve it, but my expectations are extremely low right now, 3 - 0 start and all. I hope they prove me wrong. Sorry for the long, meandering, and off topic post, I haven't slept in 30 + hours.
Class of 72
Active member
Don't forget the miserable bastards that think his recruiting is defined by last minute additions that get get subtracted early in the season, players that do not adapt to the team concept from day one, and who dread playing defense, especially perimeter, that they keep the Franklin Pierces of the world in games late into the 2nd half while our next opponent is beating by 60. Other than that anyone is an improvement over Brian Mahoney.
Dude, they started out 25-0. It wasn't some early season fluke they were #2, and again that's not my point. My point was that our play against mid majors does not necessarily dictate how we will play when the competition gets harder. Syracuse was a good example of competition better than a mid major team right? Yep, so who cares if they didn't deserve a #2 ranking or whatever you were saying.
I am aware we have been inconsistent all I was trying to say was that our play early on does not mean we are come out Wednesday and be terrible.
The negativity is a result of high expectations gone bad.
Five years ago...looking into a crystal ball...we would have thought Minnesota would be a good game that we'd win going away...and Gonzaga would be beaten by us at our house.
Even the most optimistic rooters don't believe it'll happen next week. There's no confidence in this team and that's the problem. Harrison is an outstanding player with a will to win an a heart we haven't seen in ages. The others are inconsistant...great at some times and ordinary at others.
I like Lavin. I hope he has an epiphany. We'll see.
Five years ago...looking into a crystal ball...we would have thought Minnesota would be a good game that we'd win going away...and Gonzaga would be beaten by us at our house.
Even the most optimistic rooters don't believe it'll happen next week. There's no confidence in this team and that's the problem. Harrison is an outstanding player with a will to win an a heart we haven't seen in ages. The others are inconsistant...great at some times and ordinary at others.
I like Lavin. I hope he has an epiphany. We'll see.
We played one of our best games of the season against Syracuse last year when they were at or near their best prior to wearing down with a 6-man rotation. They were one of the best teams in the country at the time. Had we played like that in 80-90% of our games we'd have won 25 of them and been dancing with a decent seed.
The problem is that the overwhelming majority of us expect that we will watch another 4 months of mediocre basketball with an occasional flash of brilliance sprinkled in. These fleeting moments will serve as a tease of what could have been with a group that will almost certainly not realize its full potential. Maximum effort will only be shown when the players are in panic mode or have decided that they really care about that specific game or moment within a game. Otherwise, our strengths will not be maximized by schemes, sets or plays that place our players in a position to execute and every flaw we have will be exploited by the opposition.
After 3+ years with this group I have yet to see:
- proper guarding position both on and off the ball
- consistent effort to box out
- solid off the ball screens to free up a shooter
- a defender chip or screen a cutter to help out a trailing defender (especially when a screen is being set)
- any consistency (sets or plays) on offense which makes it clear where, when and by whom our shots should come from (other than one on one moves to try to break down the defense off the dribble)
- an ability either by the team or the coaching staff to identify what the other team is doing and either take that away from them or find a way to exploit it.
- solid fundamentally sound basketball
- identification of time and score to determine what is appropriate and not appropriate to do. (hold for the last shot of the half with the shot clock off, not try a risky alley-oop on a fast break in a "close and late" game.)
I hope like heck that I am wrong, but I doubt it.
They started the season 25-0 for christ sake. Im pretty sure the #2 ranking was deserved.
Marillac, it is interesting that you are imploring others to support the seniors who have stuck with the team. Last season you started a thread called "Pack your bags Pointer." Here are some excerpts from your post:
"This should be his last game. It amazes me how stupid and how lazy he is as a player. He even walks like Forest Gump."
"I have never hated a St. John's player more. We can fill his ship with ANYONE better than him. Even nothing is better than him."
Were you entitled to that harsh opinion? Of course. Just as others are entitled to their opinions of players and the coaching staff. Does it go overboard and get repetitive? Yes, and I guilty of contributing to it. But I sincerely doubt this fan base is any different than others of teams that have under-produced for long stretches of time. I also know , as someone else pointed out, that venting frustrations here and supporting the team at games can both happen simultaneously. I was at the Creighton game at MSG. And while the attendance left a lot to be desired, you'd be hard pressed to find a more vocal group of fans, including I'm sure, many on this board. Just as we will be hoping for a win over Gonzaga next week.
I realize I am as repetitive as the naysayers, but this is a community to support St. John's basketball. That is what I am doing. Am I a model poster? Clearly not. I was banned in more places than HGH during the Norm years.
We know where you and 90% of the board stand with Lavin and this team. These guys are not smart enough, skilled enough, they have poor fundamentals, etc. Who disagrees with that? I don't. They aren't going to change this year. If they have to win based on that criteria....they are toast. Lavin isn't going to be fired mid-season. If we don't make the tournament this season, I would be all for a change, but this team is 3-0 right now and I don't feel like it is the proper time to obsess over it. Keady is giving quotes about fan bases beating in the brains of coaches. Why make it harder on the staff, the players, and the fans by posting the same negative junk? Being critical and offering critique are completely acceptable on these boards, but you and several others have gone so far past that line. E.g., not a single one of Otis' posts alone have ever crossed the line, but, taken as a whole, that dude is simply unreadable as a poster. You know his message before ever reading his posts.
I have a problem with Dom...this is true. My biggest problem with him is that he is so insanely athletic and has so much potential that he was flat out wasting with his style of play last season. I write over and over how the kid should be putting back two dunks a game off the offensive glass with his special talent. If I didn't think he had the ability to change, I wouldn't be so critical of him. He was the #35 ranked recruit in the country in 2011. That makes him one of the highest ranked recruits we've EVER had. I want him to see what I write. I want the staff to see it. Maybe I'm being naive, but I think sometimes they do (not just mine).
I could write a book on the things I don't like about Lavin. In terms of basketball philosophy, he and I couldn't be any more different. I like physical, structured basketball predicated on defense, rebounding, and ball movement. Players should play to their strengths and avoid their weaknesses at all costs. I would never allow Pointer and Sampson to make a bad play on offense and then run and foul someone immediately and stay in the game. How often did that happen last year? He lets the inmates run the asylum. Without completely sacrificing my anonymity to the masses, I was named after a relative that led the nation in rebounding with a staggering total. That tells you a little bit about my approach to the game.
))I truly don't get what you see that makes you think this team could make the tournament.
Myself and others are negative because we don't see any hope for change. Sure, we're 3-0, but its the same pattern of undisciplined play we've seen before.
I hope I'm wrong, but if you want to know why we're being so negative, it's because we don't see things getting any better this season. Apparently you do.