Defensive Doldrums

D

docbutler

Member
There are so many issues in the way this St. John's team plays basketball, it's hard to find the time to list them all. But let's start with the elephant in the room...abysmal defense.There is simply no way for this team to win against quality opponents when they continually allow so many points to be scored against them. Creighton had a 50+  half this week...and now Xavier scores 97 for the game? That is awful.....in any man's league. It is completely puzzling that Chris Mullin and his staff apparently don't understand that. I say that because I see nothing whatsoever that indicates any inclination to do try anything different. Each game is pretty much a carbon copy of the one before it, and they trudge along playing a predictable and unimaginative man-to-man. Every team in the BIG EAST knows exactly where our liabilities lie with regard to defense. And while both Creighton and Xavier, to their credit.....
both shot it pretty well from range, this observer doesn't see that as the major problem. Our ridiculously porous defense is probably up there among Div. I teams in allowing dunks and lay-ups. There is a complete lack of understanding of real "help" defense...a must if you are going to play man-to-man, and in doing so, keep people out of the paint.  Sometimes they switch correctly, and many times they do not. We play much too far out...given the inability of our players to stay in front of their men. They screw up pick and role defense and they switch poorly....making far too many mistakes. Their hands aren't active enough. When Muscini comes into the game they head right at him. Ellison can't stop an old man in a wheelchair without fouling. Yakwe spends too much time soaring and not enough time gaining good defensive position. Williams apparently was a flash in the pan, because he has been dreadful in the last two games. Both Alibegovic and Freudenberg are hopelessly slow afoot, and both are horrible defensive liabilities. This team should not be playing man-to-man to begin with. We should pack it in and prevent penetration in the lanes. Chris needs to read some books by Jack Craft and Roly Massimino...and get a good rotating zone...a zone with shooter awareness in place. We'll probably still get drilled from the perimeter,
but I would rather we take our chances. At least, in that way, we could help stop being annihilated on our defensive boards. We are absolutely getting killed inside...with lay-up after lay-up....dunk after dunk. Also, loose balls...have you ever seen a team that functioned worse at picking them up? Many teams work on that...do we? Last, but not least, Ahmed. Good lord...Inside sources had told me told me that he would beour best player. Comparisons were made to "Jimmy Butler" of the Bulls. Unfortunately, "Jeeves the butler" would be a more suitable comparison....he is consistently awful...most of all with his on-court judgement!. Still...this team can score some points. Now we have to learn to get stops. Giving teams 80+ points per game can never spell anything other than disaster!
 
There are so many issues in the way this St. John's team plays basketball, it's hard to find the time to list them all. But let's start with the elephant in the room...abysmal defense.There is simply no way for this team to win against quality opponents when they continually allow so many points to be scored against them. Creighton had a 50+  half this week...and now Xavier scores 97 for the game? That is awful.....in any man's league. It is completely puzzling that Chris Mullin and his staff apparently don't understand that. I say that because I see nothing whatsoever that indicates any inclination to do try anything different. Each game is pretty much a carbon copy of the one before it, and they trudge along playing a predictable and unimaginative man-to-man. Every team in the BIG EAST knows exactly where our liabilities lie with regard to defense. And while both Creighton and Xavier, to their credit.....
both shot it pretty well from range, this observer doesn't see that as the major problem. Our ridiculously porous defense is probably up there among Div. I teams in allowing dunks and lay-ups. There is a complete lack of understanding of real "help" defense...a must if you are going to play man-to-man, and in doing so, keep people out of the paint.  Sometimes they switch correctly, and many times they do not. We play much too far out...given the inability of our players to stay in front of their men. They screw up pick and role defense and they switch poorly....making far too many mistakes. Their hands aren't active enough. When Muscini comes into the game they head right at him. Ellison can't stop an old man in a wheelchair without fouling. Yakwe spends too much time soaring and not enough time gaining good defensive position. Williams apparently was a flash in the pan, because he has been dreadful in the last two games. Both Alibegovic and Freudenberg are hopelessly slow afoot, and both are horrible defensive liabilities. This team should not be playing man-to-man to begin with. We should pack it in and prevent penetration in the lanes. Chris needs to read some books by Jack Craft and Roly Massimino...and get a good rotating zone...a zone with shooter awareness in place. We'll probably still get drilled from the perimeter,
but I would rather we take our chances. At least, in that way, we could help stop being annihilated on our defensive boards. We are absolutely getting killed inside...with lay-up after lay-up....dunk after dunk. Also, loose balls...have you ever seen a team that functioned worse at picking them up? Many teams work on that...do we? Last, but not least, Ahmed. Good lord...Inside sources had told me told me that he would beour best player. Comparisons were made to "Jimmy Butler" of the Bulls. Unfortunately, "Jeeves the butler" would be a more suitable comparison....he is consistently awful...most of all with his on-court judgement!. Still...this team can score some points. Now we have to learn to get stops. Giving teams 80+ points per game can never spell anything other than disaster!
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Pretty much says it all.Only thing I would add is did we really recruit Div 1 talent perhaps when we finally do we will begin to see wins.I for one never expect a win now since to do so we have to shoot great and any team we play has to play bad We all just have to bare it for now It has to get better
 
Don't forget that CM was not a good defensive player in college either
He was a "roamer" - he went for steals at the risk of often leaving his man alone
I do agree that we should play more zone
Maybe even try Looie's "ambush" defense - a 1-3-1 half court trap to mix it up
I fondly remember Looie crossing his arms into an "X" to signify the half court trap
It was very effective as a change of pace defense and often led to steals & easy hoops
 
when we win our defense plays better....against Syracuse, butler and DePaul.....so we have it in us to play better defense....we just need to bring it every game all the time....that seems to be the big problem.....and don't tell me Syracuse is not the same Syracuse team...I know they are not but they just man handled a pitt team that won AT Virginia
 
In addition to playing better individual and team defense, we tend to win when we share the ball on offense instead of everybody trying to go one on one. One recent game that we won, we had 27 assists on 34 made baskets. That's what wins games - playing team ball on both sides of the court. We show flashes of being able to do it but just don't do it consistently enough just yet.
 
There are so many issues in the way this St. John's team plays basketball, it's hard to find the time to list them all. But let's start with the elephant in the room...abysmal defense.There is simply no way for this team to win against quality opponents when they continually allow so many points to be scored against them. Creighton had a 50+  half this week...and now Xavier scores 97 for the game? That is awful.....in any man's league. It is completely puzzling that Chris Mullin and his staff apparently don't understand that. I say that because I see nothing whatsoever that indicates any inclination to do try anything different. Each game is pretty much a carbon copy of the one before it, and they trudge along playing a predictable and unimaginative man-to-man. Every team in the BIG EAST knows exactly where our liabilities lie with regard to defense. And while both Creighton and Xavier, to their credit.....
both shot it pretty well from range, this observer doesn't see that as the major problem. Our ridiculously porous defense is probably up there among Div. I teams in allowing dunks and lay-ups. There is a complete lack of understanding of real "help" defense...a must if you are going to play man-to-man, and in doing so, keep people out of the paint.  Sometimes they switch correctly, and many times they do not. We play much too far out...given the inability of our players to stay in front of their men. They screw up pick and role defense and they switch poorly....making far too many mistakes. Their hands aren't active enough. When Muscini comes into the game they head right at him. Ellison can't stop an old man in a wheelchair without fouling. Yakwe spends too much time soaring and not enough time gaining good defensive position. Williams apparently was a flash in the pan, because he has been dreadful in the last two games. Both Alibegovic and Freudenberg are hopelessly slow afoot, and both are horrible defensive liabilities. This team should not be playing man-to-man to begin with. We should pack it in and prevent penetration in the lanes. Chris needs to read some books by Jack Craft and Roly Massimino...and get a good rotating zone...a zone with shooter awareness in place. We'll probably still get drilled from the perimeter,
but I would rather we take our chances. At least, in that way, we could help stop being annihilated on our defensive boards. We are absolutely getting killed inside...with lay-up after lay-up....dunk after dunk. Also, loose balls...have you ever seen a team that functioned worse at picking them up? Many teams work on that...do we? Last, but not least, Ahmed. Good lord...Inside sources had told me told me that he would beour best player. Comparisons were made to "Jimmy Butler" of the Bulls. Unfortunately, "Jeeves the butler" would be a more suitable comparison....he is consistently awful...most of all with his on-court judgement!. Still...this team can score some points. Now we have to learn to get stops. Giving teams 80+ points per game can never spell anything other than disaster!
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Pretty much says it all.Only thing I would add is did we really recruit Div 1 talent perhaps when we finally do we will begin to see wins.I for one never expect a win now since to do so we have to shoot great and any team we play has to play bad We all just have to bare it for now It has to get better
Click to expand...

Slice, don't you have better things to do than reading and posting on a message board?
 
Don't forget that CM was not a good defensive player in college either
He was a "roamer" - he went for steals at the risk of often leaving his man alone
I do agree that we should play more zone
Maybe even try Looie's "ambush" defense - a 1-3-1 half court trap to mix it up
I fondly remember Looie crossing his arms into an "X" to signify the half court trap
It was very effective as a change of pace defense and often led to steals & easy hoops
Click to expand...

Mullin did not get chewed up on defense. He did average a surprising 4.1 rebounds per game. You are correct that he had a lot of steals but it wasn't by not playing defense, it was by reading the passing lanes extremely well and anticipating cross court passes and also by doubling down on big men and stealing it from behind. Even in the NBA he was always among the leaders in steals.

IMO Mullin's steals numbers were not related to playing poor defense (unlike the subject of blocks being discussed in another thread). It was a result of rock solid, heady basketball where he could sneak up from behind when doubling down low, and reading the passing lanes and anticipating really well, usually when he defended on the weak side.

On the subject of our defense, this team just sucks at it. Guys jog slowly after the ball when the other team breaks, which would earn a long rest on the bench in my book. Guys avoid challenging opponents who have wide open paths to the hoops - I'm in favor of Charles Oakley welcomes when a foul earned makes opponents think twice about slams and hangs on the rims. Defense is 90% effort, and our guys play like they don't want to get into foul trouble so their stats look good. In bball there are few individual stats that show crappy defense, and maybe the team can hire a few student interns to track some stuff, subjective as it may be.
 
Don't forget that CM was not a good defensive player in college either
He was a "roamer" - he went for steals at the risk of often leaving his man alone
I do agree that we should play more zone
Maybe even try Looie's "ambush" defense - a 1-3-1 half court trap to mix it up
I fondly remember Looie crossing his arms into an "X" to signify the half court trap
It was very effective as a change of pace defense and often led to steals & easy hoops
Click to expand...

Mullin did not get chewed up on defense. He did average a surprising 4.1 rebounds per game. You are correct that he had a lot of steals but it wasn't by not playing defense, it was by reading the passing lanes extremely well and anticipating cross court passes and also by doubling down on big men and stealing it from behind. Even in the NBA he was always among the leaders in steals.

IMO Mullin's steals numbers were not related to playing poor defense (unlike the subject of blocks being discussed in another thread). It was a result of rock solid, heady basketball where he could sneak up from behind when doubling down low, and reading the passing lanes and anticipating really well, usually when he defended on the weak side.

On the subject of our defense, this team just sucks at it. Guys jog slowly after the ball when the other team breaks, which would earn a long rest on the bench in my book. Guys avoid challenging opponents who have wide open paths to the hoops - I'm in favor of Charles Oakley welcomes when a foul earned makes opponents think twice about slams and hangs on the rims. Defense is 90% effort, and our guys play like they don't want to get into foul trouble so their stats look good. In bball there are few individual stats that show crappy defense, and maybe the team can hire a few student interns to track some stuff, subjective as it may be.
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Agree Beast, the defensive mindset & commitment is poor. Re intern comment, Louisville has somebody tracking deflections regularly, even at practice apparently,
 
Agree with the OP, hit on a lot of key points.

Defense is probably the team's biggest area of exposure, and I think in large part for that reason the inconsistencies we've seen throughout most all facets of the game with this young team are exacerbated in this area. Think we'd mostly agree 60, 73, and 73 allowed Cuse/Butler/DePaul is a pretty good stretch, especially with 2 on the road and home being a quality ranked team, with some key stops late in the latter 2 games. But those are sandwiched with 92, 85, 97 PSU/Creighton/Xavier with some really abysmal stretches in each.

One thing I will say on the positive is that the team clearly wants to play fast and they are becoming more effective and consistent in doing so. Not sure if this is in part because staff wants to compensate for lack of D and would rather take chances in risk/reward high scoring affairs, but they've scored 70 or more in 11 straight games, touching 90 three times, and typically with pretty effective percentages. That's encouraging for a young team.

But obviously you have to play D. Biggest weakness as many have noted is lack of strong individual defenders. No matter how cohesive the team strategy (and ours isn't particularly so, but even if it was) it's hard to cover up for so many in this category. You can maybe hide 1-2 guys in an 8-9 man rotation. We're more than that and teams are just exploiting regularly, causing others to overcompensate and breakdowns ensue.

Best thing I think we can do more of is switch D alignments aggressively. It's not that I think we can play zone more effectively than we can play man. I just like our chances better preventing teams from getting in rhythms that allow for 30+ points allowed in 10 minutes of play (Minny, PSU, X) when we are showing different looks. We've come out in most games with good energy early, but it seems like it's just too easy for teams to settle in and identify what works and we seem to get discouraged. Before they get there, you have to present something different and then do it again.

Don't see the harm in 10+ switches a game, especially when it is so easy to change off makes, free throws, and out of timeouts. Can also help kids stay engaged mentally and enhance communication. Certainly seems like it's worth a try given our uneven effectiveness playing mostly man/man press.
 
Agree with the OP, hit on a lot of key points.

Defense is probably the team's biggest area of exposure, and I think in large part for that reason the inconsistencies we've seen throughout most all facets of the game with this young team are exacerbated in this area. Think we'd mostly agree 60, 73, and 73 allowed Cuse/Butler/DePaul is a pretty good stretch, especially with 2 on the road and home being a quality ranked team, with some key stops late in the latter 2 games. But those are sandwiched with 92, 85, 97 PSU/Creighton/Xavier with some really abysmal stretches in each.

One thing I will say on the positive is that the team clearly wants to play fast and they are becoming more effective and consistent in doing so. Not sure if this is in part because staff wants to compensate for lack of D and would rather take chances in risk/reward high scoring affairs, but they've scored 70 or more in 11 straight games, touching 90 three times, and typically with pretty effective percentages. That's encouraging for a young team.

But obviously you have to play D. Biggest weakness as many have noted is lack of strong individual defenders. No matter how cohesive the team strategy (and ours isn't particularly so, but even if it was) it's hard to cover up for so many in this category. You can maybe hide 1-2 guys in an 8-9 man rotation. We're more than that and teams are just exploiting regularly, causing others to overcompensate and breakdowns ensue.

Best thing I think we can do more of is switch D alignments aggressively. It's not that I think we can play zone more effectively than we can play man. I just like our chances better preventing teams from getting in rhythms that allow for 30+ points allowed in 10 minutes of play (Minny, PSU, X) when we are showing different looks. We've come out in most games with good energy early, but it seems like it's just too easy for teams to settle in and identify what works and we seem to get discouraged. Before they get there, you have to present something different and then do it again.

Don't see the harm in 10+ switches a game, especially when it is so easy to change off makes, free throws, and out of timeouts. Can also help kids stay engaged mentally and enhance communication. Certainly seems like it's worth a try given our uneven effectiveness playing mostly man/man press.
Click to expand...

While I am not against playing zone, one of the old coaches adages is "If you can't play man well, you can't play zone either". I would say to switch to a zone right now it would be as porous as our man if we played with the same intensity and skill.
 
Yes, Beast...You are quite right about the way Mullin was a heady defensive player. And it really is testimony as to what can be done with slow feet, but a high basketball IQ. I don't, however, feel the same regarding effort from the current team. As a great player with IQ, it's hard to pass that on to an average player where it is lacking. These guys just don't seem to get it. So much of defense is anticipation. When someone comes to set a pick, you have to be thinking about beating the ball-handler there, if he moves to accept it. If you simply react, and not anticipate, you will be late and chasing every time. I used to sit through practices with Joe Lapchick and Louie. They stressed that ad-nauseum. There was no player on those teams that didn't understand those principles and all knew how to employ them. As you know, there is far more to man-to-man defense than simply trying to stick with one man. In any event....we absolutely need to start shutting down these driving lanes. We are getting destroyed there.
 
Mark...I hear you. However, you must acknowledge that the "smarter" coaches prepare their teams better to disrupt the activity of Ponds and Lovett. Xavier posted Mecura way beyond the top of the key to inhibit cross court passes between the two. They occasionally trapped and put pressure. Smart coaches know that the key to beating SJU is to take the ball out of their hands as much as possible. If Ahmed and Elllison don't step up...well, it's lights out. When you see Lovett lose the ball trying to break down two players....that means the opponent's defense is being successful. It seems he and Ponds are the only real threats, so forcing them to make hard plays, just to get involved in the scoring, is what the defense is trying to do. Boeheim, by contrast, let our guards do whatever they wanted. Those results are already in a box score.
 
Yes, Beast...You are quite right about the way Mullin was a heady defensive player. And it really is testimony as to what can be done with slow feet, but a high basketball IQ. I don't, however, feel the same regarding effort from the current team. As a great player with IQ, it's hard to pass that on to an average player where it is lacking. These guys just don't seem to get it. So much of defense is anticipation. When someone comes to set a pick, you have to be thinking about beating the ball-handler there, if he moves to accept it. If you simply react, and not anticipate, you will be late and chasing every time. I used to sit through practices with Joe Lapchick and Louie. They stressed that ad-nauseum. There was no player on those teams that didn't understand those principles and all knew how to employ them. As you know, there is far more to man-to-man defense than simply trying to stick with one man. In any event....we absolutely need to start shutting down these driving lanes. We are getting destroyed there.
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Another really good post by you Doc.

Last year I believe I was watching a documentary on Geno at UCONN. They showed some of the drills he put the girls through, to work on footwork (because you play d with your feet and not your hands). Low basketball IQ or not, one thing even an idiot would understand is his butt being nailed to the bench for not playing defense even if you can score a few points.
 
Beast...You are so right! Only wish there were better players on the bench, so that he could emphasize your point with more effectiveness!
 
Agree with the OP, hit on a lot of key points.

Defense is probably the team's biggest area of exposure, and I think in large part for that reason the inconsistencies we've seen throughout most all facets of the game with this young team are exacerbated in this area. Think we'd mostly agree 60, 73, and 73 allowed Cuse/Butler/DePaul is a pretty good stretch, especially with 2 on the road and home being a quality ranked team, with some key stops late in the latter 2 games. But those are sandwiched with 92, 85, 97 PSU/Creighton/Xavier with some really abysmal stretches in each.

One thing I will say on the positive is that the team clearly wants to play fast and they are becoming more effective and consistent in doing so. Not sure if this is in part because staff wants to compensate for lack of D and would rather take chances in risk/reward high scoring affairs, but they've scored 70 or more in 11 straight games, touching 90 three times, and typically with pretty effective percentages. That's encouraging for a young team.

But obviously you have to play D. Biggest weakness as many have noted is lack of strong individual defenders. No matter how cohesive the team strategy (and ours isn't particularly so, but even if it was) it's hard to cover up for so many in this category. You can maybe hide 1-2 guys in an 8-9 man rotation. We're more than that and teams are just exploiting regularly, causing others to overcompensate and breakdowns ensue.

Best thing I think we can do more of is switch D alignments aggressively. It's not that I think we can play zone more effectively than we can play man. I just like our chances better preventing teams from getting in rhythms that allow for 30+ points allowed in 10 minutes of play (Minny, PSU, X) when we are showing different looks. We've come out in most games with good energy early, but it seems like it's just too easy for teams to settle in and identify what works and we seem to get discouraged. Before they get there, you have to present something different and then do it again.

Don't see the harm in 10+ switches a game, especially when it is so easy to change off makes, free throws, and out of timeouts. Can also help kids stay engaged mentally and enhance communication. Certainly seems like it's worth a try given our uneven effectiveness playing mostly man/man press.
Click to expand...

While I am not against playing zone, one of the old coaches adages is "If you can't play man well, you can't play zone either". I would say to switch to a zone right now it would be as porous as our man if we played with the same intensity and skill.
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Agree completely. Think we'd be even worse off in zone than we currently are in man. So if we can't play either, I think we may be best served trying to be as disruptive as possible just showing different looks in hopes of keeping teams off balance.

When you're the inferior team one of the worst things you can do is sit in the same defense for 40 minutes, no matter what it is. More often than not the superior team is going to find 4th or 5th gear and go on a big run. When you're not a great defensive team on top of that, even moreso.

Our most effective set in short stretches has been full court man with Owens or Ahmed trapping the first pass off the inbounds. I'd plan to use that when you have a team on the ropes and want to put the screws or need a run when down. Otherwise nothing complicated, mix up man and 2-3 and maybe show an occasional 1-3-1, even if only for a few possessions at a time, just because teams see it so infrequently it's hard to settle down against in short stretches. Mack did this very effectively last year, haven't seen enough of them this year to know if they still are, but surprised more coaches don't do it.
 
Like the ideas! I'm not in love with a zone.....just advocating for something that helps shut down driving lanes and penetration possibilities. The zone also encourages opponents to spread offensively to create ball movement. So far, they're all over us on the boards as you well know. That would help push them out a tad. Both SJU1512 and Beast of the East have great ideas that I support! Throwing multiple changing defenses to confuse an opponent is always an excellent idea. Can Mullin teach it? Who knows. Anyway, I think we're agreed that the passive and predictable status of our defense is currently poor at best. Clearly, a different approach is sorely needed. As previously said, the points we are giving up currently are ridiculous. So much so, that having a successful offensive game is meaningless.
 
Like the ideas! I'm not in love with a zone.....just advocating for something that helps shut down driving lanes and penetration possibilities. The zone also encourages opponents to spread offensively to create ball movement. So far, they're all over us on the boards as you well know. That would help push them out a tad. Both SJU1512 and Beast of the East have great ideas that I support! Throwing multiple changing defenses to confuse an opponent is always an excellent idea. Can Mullin teach it? Who knows. Anyway, I think we're agreed that the passive and predictable status of our defense is currently poor at best. Clearly, a different approach is sorely needed. As previously said, the points we are giving up currently are ridiculous. So much so, that having a successful offensive game is meaningless.
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How about instead of pressuring guys 50 feet from the basket they only pick up at say the three point line or a little beyond. To me Lovett and Ponds aren't good enough yet one on one defensively to put on that type of pressure, they consistently get beat and the help defense just isn't there. The dribble penetration is breaking everything else down.
 
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