Deepest Teams in College Hoops- ESPN

[beast of the east]

Ron averaged about 12 points and six rebounds as a freshmen.

C'mon. Anyone who ever watched Artest, knew he was better than stats. He was a Magic Johnson type of player, who didn't have to score 20 to lead his team to victory. He filled a scoresheet, but could be the best player on the court on a night where he scored 10 points

And can't Jordan be the same by scoring 10-12 points and throwing in 5-6 dimes?

Moose, what does it mean by saying that certain players "must emerge"? Does this mean something different to you? Jordan is Lavin's highest rated recruit, but remember just two years ago, we hailed a guard as the second coming who was out of here in just 9 games. Over and over again, recruits and even transfers can wash out. Curtis Redding took a Kansas State team deep into the NCAA tourney as a freshman, was run out of town as a sophomore, but still was highly regarded when he got to SJU. He was horrible on the court, with an attitude to match, and the team didn't improve until he was benched.

My point is that even with a deep team, there isn't a player or two at the top of the pyramid who has proven himself as special. If the draft was held today, we likely wouldn't have a 1st round pick, and essentially that is what I think we would need to comfortably say this team is undoubtedly a tourney team that can do damage come March. Stay tuned - we could end up with as many as 3-4 of those types, but we could also end up with none by seasons end.

 

[Andrew]

Ron averaged about 12 points and six rebounds as a freshmen.

C'mon. Anyone who ever watched Artest, knew he was better than stats. He was a Magic Johnson type of player, who didn't have to score 20 to lead his team to victory. He filled a scoresheet, but could be the best player on the court on a night where he scored 10 points

And can't Jordan be the same by scoring 10-12 points and throwing in 5-6 dimes?

Moose, what does it mean by saying that certain players "must emerge"? Does this mean something different to you? Jordan is Lavin's highest rated recruit, but remember just two years ago, we hailed a guard as the second coming who was out of here in just 9 games. Over and over again, recruits and even transfers can wash out. Curtis Redding took a Kansas State team deep into the NCAA tourney as a freshman, was run out of town as a sophomore, but still was highly regarded when he got to SJU. He was horrible on the court, with an attitude to match, and the team didn't improve until he was benched.

My point is that even with a deep team, there isn't a player or two at the top of the pyramid who has proven himself as special. If the draft was held today, we likely wouldn't have a 1st round pick, and essentially that is what I think we would need to comfortably say this team is undoubtedly a tourney team that can do damage come March. Stay tuned - we could end up with as many as 3-4 of those types, but we could also end up with none by seasons end.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1126383/3/index.htm
Curtis Redding is mentioned in this article.

 

[Moose]

Ron averaged about 12 points and six rebounds as a freshmen.

C'mon. Anyone who ever watched Artest, knew he was better than stats. He was a Magic Johnson type of player, who didn't have to score 20 to lead his team to victory. He filled a scoresheet, but could be the best player on the court on a night where he scored 10 points

And can't Jordan be the same by scoring 10-12 points and throwing in 5-6 dimes?

Moose, what does it mean by saying that certain players "must emerge"? Does this mean something different to you? Jordan is Lavin's highest rated recruit, but remember just two years ago, we hailed a guard as the second coming who was out of here in just 9 games. Over and over again, recruits and even transfers can wash out. Curtis Redding took a Kansas State team deep into the NCAA tourney as a freshman, was run out of town as a sophomore, but still was highly regarded when he got to SJU. He was horrible on the court, with an attitude to match, and the team didn't improve until he was benched.

My point is that even with a deep team, there isn't a player or two at the top of the pyramid who has proven himself as special. If the draft was held today, we likely wouldn't have a 1st round pick, and essentially that is what I think we would need to comfortably say this team is undoubtedly a tourney team that can do damage come March. Stay tuned - we could end up with as many as 3-4 of those types, but we could also end up with none by seasons end.

I personally don't think anyone has to emerge really. I think on any given night our leading scorer can score 20 and it could be Dee, Karr, Rysheed or Sanchez. Deep means balance to me and we already know we have proven scorers in Dee and Karr.

 

[Marillac]

We are 7th. Nova is 12th

http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/jeff-goodman/post?id=1415

Steve Lavin returns his top six players from a season ago -- guards D’Angelo Harrison, Phil Greene IV and Jamal Branch, along with wing Sir’Dominic Pointer, forward Jakarr Sampson and Chris Obekpa. The Red Storm will add heralded freshman guard Rysheed Jordan, forward Orlando Sanchez (wasn’t eligible last season) and Harvard transfer Max Hooper. That’s nine deep, not including God’sgift Achiuwa, who sat out last season, and Marco Bourgault, a shooter who started seven games in 2012-13.

I would feel so much better if we had a bonafide stud or two - a Mullin, Berry, Sealy, Artest, a George Johnson to lead the way. Not saying one or two won't emerge, but without one, we are simply a beast without a head, and the top twenty will be difficult to attain

You dont think DLo is that guy?

I do. I think we need a second scorer to step up and I hope that guy is Branch.
Jordan is a great recruit, but I just don't trust freshmen enough to hang my hat on them. I know I am in the minority here, but I'll take experience all day long.

For most Freshman yes. But Jordan was the 20th ranked recruit by Rivals. For example the 20th ranked recruit in 2012 was Danuel House of Houston. He averaged 12 ppg. The 19th ranked recruit was Yogi Ferrall who averaged 8 ppg and 4 apt for Indiana. For full disclosure the 21st ranked kid was Winston Sheppard who averaged 6 ppg for SDSU.

I think a 20th ranked recruit has the ability to be really special and quickly.

We had a team full of top 50 freshmen and that wasn't too pretty. Pointer was just a few slots outside of Jordan. I'd sign up for a Yogi Farrell year from Jordan in an instant, but even Farrell was kept on a short leash. When he started acting like a freshman, coach wasn't afraid to pull him for several minutes at a time.

Knowing nothing else, I'd take a #51 rsci junior over a #25 freshman. We tend to overrate freshmen on these boards. As good as Moe was a freshman, he was not one of the top 30 players in the country. He earned his draft spot largely on potential.

 

[Moose]

We are 7th. Nova is 12th

http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/jeff-goodman/post?id=1415

Steve Lavin returns his top six players from a season ago -- guards D’Angelo Harrison, Phil Greene IV and Jamal Branch, along with wing Sir’Dominic Pointer, forward Jakarr Sampson and Chris Obekpa. The Red Storm will add heralded freshman guard Rysheed Jordan, forward Orlando Sanchez (wasn’t eligible last season) and Harvard transfer Max Hooper. That’s nine deep, not including God’sgift Achiuwa, who sat out last season, and Marco Bourgault, a shooter who started seven games in 2012-13.

I would feel so much better if we had a bonafide stud or two - a Mullin, Berry, Sealy, Artest, a George Johnson to lead the way. Not saying one or two won't emerge, but without one, we are simply a beast without a head, and the top twenty will be difficult to attain

You dont think DLo is that guy?

I do. I think we need a second scorer to step up and I hope that guy is Branch.
Jordan is a great recruit, but I just don't trust freshmen enough to hang my hat on them. I know I am in the minority here, but I'll take experience all day long.

For most Freshman yes. But Jordan was the 20th ranked recruit by Rivals. For example the 20th ranked recruit in 2012 was Danuel House of Houston. He averaged 12 ppg. The 19th ranked recruit was Yogi Ferrall who averaged 8 ppg and 4 apt for Indiana. For full disclosure the 21st ranked kid was Winston Sheppard who averaged 6 ppg for SDSU.

I think a 20th ranked recruit has the ability to be really special and quickly.

We had a team full of top 50 freshmen and that wasn't too pretty. Pointer was just a few slots outside of Jordan. I'd sign up for a Yogi Farrell year from Jordan in an instant, but even Farrell was kept on a short leash. When he started acting like a freshman, coach wasn't afraid to pull him for several minutes at a time.

Knowing nothing else, I'd take a #51 rsci junior over a #25 freshman. We tend to overrate freshmen on these boards. As good as Moe was a freshman, he was not one of the top 30 players in the country. He earned his draft spot largely on potential.

This board doesn't do anything different than any other board, fan base or sport. Each year brings renewed hope. That might be overrating someone.

Moe was an anomaly. Him and Dee had chance with thin squad to get plenty of shots off. Yes Jordan won't have that luxury. But also as a guard a Top 30 player like him will have more chance to make immediate impact than a wing or a raw big man

 

[doodyny33]

We are 7th. Nova is 12th

http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/jeff-goodman/post?id=1415

Steve Lavin returns his top six players from a season ago -- guards D’Angelo Harrison, Phil Greene IV and Jamal Branch, along with wing Sir’Dominic Pointer, forward Jakarr Sampson and Chris Obekpa. The Red Storm will add heralded freshman guard Rysheed Jordan, forward Orlando Sanchez (wasn’t eligible last season) and Harvard transfer Max Hooper. That’s nine deep, not including God’sgift Achiuwa, who sat out last season, and Marco Bourgault, a shooter who started seven games in 2012-13.

I would feel so much better if we had a bonafide stud or two - a Mullin, Berry, Sealy, Artest, a George Johnson to lead the way. Not saying one or two won't emerge, but without one, we are simply a beast without a head, and the top twenty will be difficult to attain

JaKarr isn't far off. If he can improve that mid range jumper, he'll be very difficult for any team to stop.

And even though I'm probably in the minority here, I still love watching D'lo play. He's a bulldog on the court who isn't afraid of a fight. Yes, he's a hot and cold type of player. But how many games last year did he singlehandedly keep SJU in the game?

 

[beast of the east]

We are 7th. Nova is 12th

http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/jeff-goodman/post?id=1415

Steve Lavin returns his top six players from a season ago -- guards D’Angelo Harrison, Phil Greene IV and Jamal Branch, along with wing Sir’Dominic Pointer, forward Jakarr Sampson and Chris Obekpa. The Red Storm will add heralded freshman guard Rysheed Jordan, forward Orlando Sanchez (wasn’t eligible last season) and Harvard transfer Max Hooper. That’s nine deep, not including God’sgift Achiuwa, who sat out last season, and Marco Bourgault, a shooter who started seven games in 2012-13.

I would feel so much better if we had a bonafide stud or two - a Mullin, Berry, Sealy, Artest, a George Johnson to lead the way. Not saying one or two won't emerge, but without one, we are simply a beast without a head, and the top twenty will be difficult to attain

JaKarr isn't far off. If he can improve that mid range jumper, he'll be very difficult for any team to stop.

And even though I'm probably in the minority here, I still love watching D'lo play. He's a bulldog on the court who isn't afraid of a fight. Yes, he's a hot and cold type of player. But how many games last year did he singlehandedly keep SJU in the game?

If either of these two up there game one or two notches, I agree.

 

[SJU1512]

I don't think we're going to be in need of players emerging generally. Harrison (17.4 ppg) and Sampson (14.9) are already proven scorers, and have a good chance to be 2 of the 15 best players in the conference. Jordan is probably going to be that kind of player, and Branch showed flashes last of being able to get there as well. Maybe none of these are Mullin/Berry (or, more recently, Burke/Hardaway) National POY candiates and sure-fire 1st rounders, but only so many teams have one of those kind of guys, let alone two. Last year it's just Michigan, Indiana, Kansas, and Kentucky, and if we want to combine last year and this year you can add UNC, Duke, and Syracuse.

But there are different ways to get there, and I think our overall framework this year will be more in the Louisville/Marquette mold from last year. 1-2 very good (but not at the level listed above) players leading the way (Smith/Vander Blue), and otherwise relying on depth and athleticism.

Where I do think we'll need an emergence is in terms of who has the ball in their hands at the end of the game. Last year we were dreadful in last possession situations (the Rutgers MSG game comes to mind). In this respect nobody has established themselves to be what Hardy was to the 11/12 team, and you need that kind of guy to go somewhere, especially in March. So if we are talking about needing this kind of player to emerge I agree, and part of it is on the staff to facilitate that emergence. The good news is we have candidates.

 

[beast of the east]

I don't think we're going to be in need of players emerging generally. Harrison (17.4 ppg) and Sampson (14.9) are already proven scorers, and have a good chance to be 2 of the 15 best players in the conference. Jordan is probably going to be that kind of player, and Branch showed flashes last of being able to get there as well. Maybe none of these are Mullin/Berry (or, more recently, Burke/Hardaway) National POY candiates and sure-fire 1st rounders, but only so many teams have one of those kind of guys, let alone two. Last year it's just Michigan, Indiana, Kansas, and Kentucky, and if we want to combine last year and this year you can add UNC, Duke, and Syracuse.

But there are different ways to get there, and I think our overall framework this year will be more in the Louisville/Marquette mold from last year. 1-2 very good (but not at the level listed above) players leading the way (Smith/Vander Blue), and otherwise relying on depth and athleticism.

Where I do think we'll need an emergence is in terms of who has the ball in their hands at the end of the game. Last year we were dreadful in last possession situations (the Rutgers MSG game comes to mind). In this respect nobody has established themselves to be what Hardy was to the 11/12 team, and you need that kind of guy to go somewhere, especially in March. So if we are talking about needing this kind of player to emerge I agree, and part of it is on the staff to facilitate that emergence. The good news is we have candidates.

Here's where I would agree with you to an extent. Depth is going to mean less minutes and shots for everyone. So if Dlo or JAkarr are going to score 17-18 points per game, it's going to have to be with less shots and efficiently. I was reading an SI vault article about Mullin, which essentially said that he raised his scoring average from 16+ to 19+ to 22+ over three seasons while taking about 12 shots per game. So the depth won't necessarily create points on the offensive end, unless turnover ratio tilts more heavily in our favor, offensive rebounds increase, and shooting percentages go up.

The real benefit of depth is on defense, where you can apply pressure and play more physical, knowing there is someone on the bench behind you that is capable. It also allows you to play up tempo, and run your opponent's first five into the ground while you keep running in fresh legs.

It should be interesting to see how LAvin uses all this depth.

 

[SJU1512]

I don't think we're going to be in need of players emerging generally. Harrison (17.4 ppg) and Sampson (14.9) are already proven scorers, and have a good chance to be 2 of the 15 best players in the conference. Jordan is probably going to be that kind of player, and Branch showed flashes last of being able to get there as well. Maybe none of these are Mullin/Berry (or, more recently, Burke/Hardaway) National POY candiates and sure-fire 1st rounders, but only so many teams have one of those kind of guys, let alone two. Last year it's just Michigan, Indiana, Kansas, and Kentucky, and if we want to combine last year and this year you can add UNC, Duke, and Syracuse.

But there are different ways to get there, and I think our overall framework this year will be more in the Louisville/Marquette mold from last year. 1-2 very good (but not at the level listed above) players leading the way (Smith/Vander Blue), and otherwise relying on depth and athleticism.

Where I do think we'll need an emergence is in terms of who has the ball in their hands at the end of the game. Last year we were dreadful in last possession situations (the Rutgers MSG game comes to mind). In this respect nobody has established themselves to be what Hardy was to the 11/12 team, and you need that kind of guy to go somewhere, especially in March. So if we are talking about needing this kind of player to emerge I agree, and part of it is on the staff to facilitate that emergence. The good news is we have candidates.

Here's where I would agree with you to an extent. Depth is going to mean less minutes and shots for everyone. So if Dlo or JAkarr are going to score 17-18 points per game, it's going to have to be with less shots and efficiently. I was reading an SI vault article about Mullin, which essentially said that he raised his scoring average from 16+ to 19+ to 22+ over three seasons while taking about 12 shots per game. So the depth won't necessarily create points on the offensive end, unless turnover ratio tilts more heavily in our favor, offensive rebounds increase, and shooting percentages go up.

The real benefit of depth is on defense, where you can apply pressure and play more physical, knowing there is someone on the bench behind you that is capable. It also allows you to play up tempo, and run your opponent's first five into the ground while you keep running in fresh legs.

It should be interesting to see how LAvin uses all this depth.

Agree with both points. Especially defensively, with depth + anchors like Obekpa and Sanchez, we should be able to extend and be more aggressive/take more chances. I think we are going to get a lot more easy buckets going the other way this year.

 

[Section3]

Ron averaged about 12 points and six rebounds as a freshmen.

C'mon. Anyone who ever watched Artest, knew he was better than stats. He was a Magic Johnson type of player, who didn't have to score 20 to lead his team to victory. He filled a scoresheet, but could be the best player on the court on a night where he scored 10 points

He was fearless

 

[monte]

Ron Artest was a MCAA. Furthermore he has a competitive fire that few players had and have and would run through a brick wall if that is what it took to win. I remember speaking to Coach Fran after Ron committed and he told me forget the rankings Ron is a top 10 player in his class and will be a very special player. Love him or hate him Fran could recruit and knew talent. In this instance he was on the money.

North FF was an exceptional recruiter, no doubt.. On par with Lavin, But as a talent evaluator I wouldn't consider him anything out of the norm(no pun intended). Most of the kids he got were top 100 kids. Some lived up to their lofty rankings(Artest, Barcley) others did not(Crooks, Felton, Charles). Jessie was a nice player for us, but nowhere near what was expected of him as a top 75 player coming out of Loughlin. We all know that recruiting isn't an exact science, but other than Postell(who was also borderline top 100 recruit and really developed after FF was gone), I can't think of another kid that FF got that I would say exceeded his expectations. But I may be forgetting someone.

 

[MJDinkins]

Ron Artest was a MCAA. Furthermore he has a competitive fire that few players had and have and would run through a brick wall if that is what it took to win. I remember speaking to Coach Fran after Ron committed and he told me forget the rankings Ron is a top 10 player in his class and will be a very special player. Love him or hate him Fran could recruit and knew talent. In this instance he was on the money.

North FF was an exceptional recruiter, no doubt.. On par with Lavin, But as a talent evaluator I wouldn't consider him anything out of the norm(no pun intended). Most of the kids he got were top 100 kids. Some lived up to their lofty rankings(Artest, Barcley) others did not(Crooks, Felton, Charles). Jessie was a nice player for us, but nowhere near what was expected of him as a top 75 player coming out of Loughlin. We all know that recruiting isn't an exact science, but other than Postell(who was also borderline top 100 recruit and really developed after FF was gone), I can't think of another kid that FF got that I would say exceeded his expectations. But I may be forgetting someone.

I, actually thought Felton had loads of potential, but we all know the story on him.

Postell actually was a Mahoney recruit. Mahoney was fired before he ever suited up with us.

 

[monte]

Ron Artest was a MCAA. Furthermore he has a competitive fire that few players had and have and would run through a brick wall if that is what it took to win. I remember speaking to Coach Fran after Ron committed and he told me forget the rankings Ron is a top 10 player in his class and will be a very special player. Love him or hate him Fran could recruit and knew talent. In this instance he was on the money.

North FF was an exceptional recruiter, no doubt.. On par with Lavin, But as a talent evaluator I wouldn't consider him anything out of the norm(no pun intended). Most of the kids he got were top 100 kids. Some lived up to their lofty rankings(Artest, Barcley) others did not(Crooks, Felton, Charles). Jessie was a nice player for us, but nowhere near what was expected of him as a top 75 player coming out of Loughlin. We all know that recruiting isn't an exact science, but other than Postell(who was also borderline top 100 recruit and really developed after FF was gone), I can't think of another kid that FF got that I would say exceeded his expectations. But I may be forgetting someone.

I, actually thought Felton had loads of potential, but we all know the story on him.

Postell actually was a Mahoney recruit. Mahoney was fired before he ever suited up with us.

Felton had a ton of potential. Hard to tell how good he would have been because he never gave himself the opportunity. Sad story. Forgot that Mahoney recruited Postell. I know he recruited Glover(think he was top 15 out of Rice) but was gone before AG every suited up.

 

[L J S A]

I, actually thought Felton had loads of potential, but we all know the story on him.

I was really high on him . . . and then I sat in like the fifth or sixth row at MSG for the Super Six and watched him get absolutely decimated by Elton Brand.

After that, my hopes were diminished, but I did expect him to be a player by his junior year.

 

[monte]

I, actually thought Felton had loads of potential, but we all know the story on him.

I was really high on him . . . and then I sat in like the fifth or sixth row at MSG for the Super Six and watched him get absolutely decimated by Elton Brand.

After that, my hopes were diminished, but I did expect him to be a player by his junior year.

Elton Brand decimated a lot of very good players

 

[L J S A]

I, actually thought Felton had loads of potential, but we all know the story on him.

I was really high on him . . . and then I sat in like the fifth or sixth row at MSG for the Super Six and watched him get absolutely decimated by Elton Brand.

After that, my hopes were diminished, but I did expect him to be a player by his junior year.

Elton Brand decimated a lot of very good players

This one was particularly horrific. :lol:

 

[Andrew]

Ron Artest was a MCAA. Furthermore he has a competitive fire that few players had and have and would run through a brick wall if that is what it took to win. I remember speaking to Coach Fran after Ron committed and he told me forget the rankings Ron is a top 10 player in his class and will be a very special player. Love him or hate him Fran could recruit and knew talent. In this instance he was on the money.

North FF was an exceptional recruiter, no doubt.. On par with Lavin, But as a talent evaluator I wouldn't consider him anything out of the norm(no pun intended). Most of the kids he got were top 100 kids. Some lived up to their lofty rankings(Artest, Barcley) others did not(Crooks, Felton, Charles). Jessie was a nice player for us, but nowhere near what was expected of him as a top 75 player coming out of Loughlin. We all know that recruiting isn't an exact science, but other than Postell(who was also borderline top 100 recruit and really developed after FF was gone), I can't think of another kid that FF got that I would say exceeded his expectations. But I may be forgetting someone.

I, actually thought Felton had loads of potential, but we all know the story on him.

Postell actually was a Mahoney recruit. Mahoney was fired before he ever suited up with us.

Felton had a ton of potential. Hard to tell how good he would have been because he never gave himself the opportunity. Sad story. Forgot that Mahoney recruited Postell. I know he recruited Glover(think he was top 15 out of Rice) but was gone before AG every suited up.

 

[Andrew]

Ron Artest was a MCAA. Furthermore he has a competitive fire that few players had and have and would run through a brick wall if that is what it took to win. I remember speaking to Coach Fran after Ron committed and he told me forget the rankings Ron is a top 10 player in his class and will be a very special player. Love him or hate him Fran could recruit and knew talent. In this instance he was on the money.

North FF was an exceptional recruiter, no doubt.. On par with Lavin, But as a talent evaluator I wouldn't consider him anything out of the norm(no pun intended). Most of the kids he got were top 100 kids. Some lived up to their lofty rankings(Artest, Barcley) others did not(Crooks, Felton, Charles). Jessie was a nice player for us, but nowhere near what was expected of him as a top 75 player coming out of Loughlin. We all know that recruiting isn't an exact science, but other than Postell(who was also borderline top 100 recruit and really developed after FF was gone), I can't think of another kid that FF got that I would say exceeded his expectations. But I may be forgetting someone.

I, actually thought Felton had loads of potential, but we all know the story on him.

Postell actually was a Mahoney recruit. Mahoney was fired before he ever suited up with us.

Felton had a ton of potential. Hard to tell how good he would have been because he never gave himself the opportunity. Sad story. Forgot that Mahoney recruited Postell. I know he recruited Glover(think he was top 15 out of Rice) but was gone before AG every suited up.

Glover played his heart out.

 

[bamafan]

Mahoney may have recruited Glover but he signed when FF was coach because I remember it looked like he was not coming with FF as coach but when he signed I remember FF being quoted that he was very excited telling his wife.