Cragg and the SJU “Culture”

[quote="Paultzman" post=336160][quote="Monte" post=336159][quote="Paultzman" post=336157]https://twitter.com/brandontierney/status/1112780891842142211?s=21[/quote]

See my previous post about Xavier guys LOL[/quote]
Was there a reunion at your house yesterday? No uniforms I hope :)[/quote]

Still have my military dress blues hanging in my closet. A tad bit tight on me these days. Although not as tight as a couple of years ago lol
 
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[quote="Monte" post=336155][quote="Beast of the East" post=336094][quote="Monte" post=336010][quote="DoodyNY33" post=335998]I hope you're right, Monte. But at the end of the day, I'm just very skeptical with Mullin at the helm. I'm not exactly sure how Cragg goes about having the conversation, "Listen Chris, I think you are doing a great job, but I'm letting you know your entire staff is gone. I still believe in you though..."

Plus, we can't un-see what we've seen the last few years. Not recruiting, not replacing unqualified assistants with qualified ones, taking entire summers off, not meeting with recruits when they are on campus, tying your shoe for 45 minutes while in a huddle. I'm not privy with what goes on behind the scenes, but I haven't been impressed with him or his decision making abilities. Will I root for him? Of course I will. At the end of the day, you root for the program and the jersey. Coaches and players come and go. But still need to see it before I believe it.[/quote]

Doody my jury is still out on Chris as well, but my hope is that Cragg surrounds him with people that know more than him, and that he can grow in to the job and help rebuild the program. Then turn the reigns over to one of his erstwhile assts. I started a construction business nearly 30 years ago, knowing very little about the trade. The first thing I did was make sure to surround myself with people who knew more than me. IE project managers, skilled tradespeople, etc. Chris, OTOH, has been trying to learn how to be a head coach while surrounded by people who have the same head coaching experience as him: zero. There’s no one for him to turn to in crucial situations who has actually coached. And that’s ridiculous and not a formula for success. And if being a great player translated to being a great HC, then the HOF would be filled with guys who were both players and coaches. And while there may be some, there ain’t many.[/quote]

Most college coaches played college ball. Being a star player doesn't make you a better coach and doesn't qualify or disqualify you to coach. Wooden , who was national player of the year, is the only man in the college HOF as player and coach.

The greatest college coaches of this generation all played. Coach K for knight at army, boeheim at Syracuse, Jay Wright at bucknell. it goes on and on[/quote]

My point was that a HOF player rarely becomes a HOF coach. As you noted, it's happened one time.[/quote]

Nothing qualifies or disqualifies a great player from.becoming a great coach. Larry brown was a pretty good player and very good coach. Lenny wilkens, Larry bird. Kc Jones, all very good players and good coaches. The narrative doesn't work in my opinion.
 
[strike][/strike][quote="Beast of the East" post=336210][quote="Monte" post=336155][quote="Beast of the East" post=336094][quote="Monte" post=336010][quote="DoodyNY33" post=335998]I hope you're right, Monte. But at the end of the day, I'm just very skeptical with Mullin at the helm. I'm not exactly sure how Cragg goes about having the conversation, "Listen Chris, I think you are doing a great job, but I'm letting you know your entire staff is gone. I still believe in you though..."

Plus, we can't un-see what we've seen the last few years. Not recruiting, not replacing unqualified assistants with qualified ones, taking entire summers off, not meeting with recruits when they are on campus, tying your shoe for 45 minutes while in a huddle. I'm not privy with what goes on behind the scenes, but I haven't been impressed with him or his decision making abilities. Will I root for him? Of course I will. At the end of the day, you root for the program and the jersey. Coaches and players come and go. But still need to see it before I believe it.[/quote]

Doody my jury is still out on Chris as well, but my hope is that Cragg surrounds him with people that know more than him, and that he can grow in to the job and help rebuild the program. Then turn the reigns over to one of his erstwhile assts. I started a construction business nearly 30 years ago, knowing very little about the trade. The first thing I did was make sure to surround myself with people who knew more than me. IE project managers, skilled tradespeople, etc. Chris, OTOH, has been trying to learn how to be a head coach while surrounded by people who have the same head coaching experience as him: zero. There’s no one for him to turn to in crucial situations who has actually coached. And that’s ridiculous and not a formula for success. And if being a great player translated to being a great HC, then the HOF would be filled with guys who were both players and coaches. And while there may be some, there ain’t many.[/quote]

Most college coaches played college ball. Being a star player doesn't make you a better coach and doesn't qualify or disqualify you to coach. Wooden , who was national player of the year, is the only man in the college HOF as player and coach.

The greatest college coaches of this generation all played. Coach K for knight at army, boeheim at Syracuse, Jay Wright at bucknell. it goes on and on[/quote]

My point was that a HOF player rarely becomes a HOF coach. As you noted, it's happened one time.[/quote]

Nothing qualifies or disqualifies a great player from.becoming a great coach. Larry brown was a pretty good player and very good coach. Lenny wilkens, Larry bird. Kc Jones, all very good players and good coaches. The narrative doesn't work in my opinion.[/quote]

I’m not going to argue the point with you since it’s not an opinion, it’s a statisical fact. Of course I’m still hoping that Chris is a statistical anomaly.
 
Want to talk about "culture"? Do we want a respectable one? Then beg Mullin to step down. The warning signs have been there every year. No real program allows this crap.
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=336311]Want to talk about "culture"? Do we want a respectable one? Then beg Mullin to step down. The warning signs have been there every year. No real program allows this crap.[/quote]

If I begged you to stop posting would you?
 
I do not how Cragg changes the culture of this club.

But I want this question answered first. Why "do you want to hurt me," why do you want to make me cry?

It is "time" because time is precious, I know. But this could be the best place uet in the Big East.

To do that, SJU must drop its "karma chameleon" act. Coaches, staff, players, you come and go, but loving this program would be easy if they followed our dreams, and won frequently.

I know if things don't change, a number of us, myself included will become more apathetic. And I know you'll miss me blind.

But I get this crazy feeling that chases in my head, it's nothing that you do to me, but SJU winning big. And then "I'll tumble for ya." Heck, the entire City will tumble for you.

That's all I got.
 
I have no clue who will be coaching SJU next season as either head coach or ass't. but I feel in a couple of years we will look back on when Cragg was hired as the turn around point in the men's basketball program.
I can't imagine Mullin even sitting down with any of the AD's prior to Cragg..
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=336311]Want to talk about "culture"? Do we want a respectable one? Then beg Mullin to step down. The warning signs have been there every year. No real program allows this crap.[/quote]

I'll said it before and I'll say it again, I have my doubts about CM as a head coach. Having said that, had Owens stuck around we likely would have won 25+ games and probably done some damage in both the Big East and NCAA tourneys. Then Chris would have looked like a very good head coach and no one would be talking about his being fired. On a basketball team, one good player(not great) can make the difference between a successful season and a mediocre season. And can make the difference in how a coach is viewed. Case in point: David Cain. You and others have decided that Chris is never going to succeed here, and you're most certainly entitled to your opinion. It is my opinion, and that of many others on this board, that Chris deserves some more time provided he's willing to work with the AD to make some adjustments to the staff. That seems to be exactly what is happening right now.
 
[quote="Monte" post=336366][quote="Mike Zaun" post=336311]Want to talk about "culture"? Do we want a respectable one? Then beg Mullin to step down. The warning signs have been there every year. No real program allows this crap.[/quote]

I'll said it before and I'll say it again, I have my doubts about CM as a head coach. Having said that, had Owens stuck around we likely would have won 25+ games and probably done some damage in both the Big East and NCAA tourneys. Then Chris would have looked like a very good head coach and no one would be talking about his being fired. On a basketball team, one good player(not great) can make the difference between a successful season and a mediocre season. And can make the difference in how a coach is viewed. Case in point: David Cain. You and others have decided that Chris is never going to succeed here, and you're most certainly entitled to your opinion. It is my opinion, and that of many others on this board, that Chris deserves some more time provided he's willing to work with the AD to make some adjustments to the staff. That seems to be exactly what is happening right now.[/quote]

I'm not so sure that Cragg is really here to change the culture per se. He appears to be really happy with what he has experienced so far. After Monasch and Goff, with Oliva running the show temporarily, Cragg has only a clue as to how things were before, and it's clear he brings strong leadership to the position. By itself THAT has changed the culture. That being said, he has already begun to strategize what he'd like to do with facilities, his interest in engaging our fans (as indicated by his many emails and willingness to respond to anyone via email), and build a strong athletic program.

I think many of us are misinterpreting how heavy handed an AD can be with the head basketball coach. I would think, Cragg who appears to me to be professional and every way, is not going to sit down and tell Chris Mullin how to coach a team or tell him to change staff. I think appropriately that he thinks of Chris as a strong ally, and he is there to support basketball, not run it. If he thinks the HC position isn't working out, he is also smart enough to know that he cannot act with the complete buy in of Gempeshaw and key member of the board.

This season has ended miserably, and I think the team could have played a lot better even considering the lack of height and depth. On the plus side we made our 3rd tournament in nine seasons, and there are a lot of sometimes formidable programs who have not done as well. As we watch NCAA games, so many teams represented themselves well in losses. In our 3 tourney games, SJU did not.

My opinion is that Mullin will be back for a 5th season, and must recruit a solid roster that goes 8 deep minimally and is balanced with talent on the front line and backcourt. If that happens for 20-21, he will be back for a 6th season also. After that, who knows.
 
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Hopefully the necessary changes to Mullin's staff will be made but how can you can have confidence in anybody at SJU but Cragg. Since Mullin hired Richmond SJU has been working at a disadvantage in the recruiting area, which is the life blood of success of a college basketball program.
Richmond was not a bad choice but possibly the worst choice possible and the fact that this situation was allowed to fester for the past three years is telling about Mullin and the AD prior to Cragg.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=336382][quote="Monte" post=336366][quote="Mike Zaun" post=336311]Want to talk about "culture"? Do we want a respectable one? Then beg Mullin to step down. The warning signs have been there every year. No real program allows this crap.[/quote]

I'll said it before and I'll say it again, I have my doubts about CM as a head coach. Having said that, had Owens stuck around we likely would have won 25+ games and probably done some damage in both the Big East and NCAA tourneys. Then Chris would have looked like a very good head coach and no one would be talking about his being fired. On a basketball team, one good player(not great) can make the difference between a successful season and a mediocre season. And can make the difference in how a coach is viewed. Case in point: David Cain. You and others have decided that Chris is never going to succeed here, and you're most certainly entitled to your opinion. It is my opinion, and that of many others on this board, that Chris deserves some more time provided he's willing to work with the AD to make some adjustments to the staff. That seems to be exactly what is happening right now.[/quote]

I'm not so sure that Cragg is really here to change the culture per se. He appears to be really happy with what he has experienced so far. After Monasch and Goff, with Oliva running the show temporarily, Cragg has only a clue as to how things were before, and it's clear he brings strong leadership to the position. By itself THAT has changed the culture. That being said, he has already begun to strategize what he'd like to do with facilities, his interest in engaging our fans (as indicated by his many emails and willingness to respond to anyone via email), and build a strong athletic program.

I think many of us are misinterpreting how heavy handed an AD can be with the head basketball coach. I would think, Cragg who appears to me to be professional and every way, is not going to sit down and tell Chris Mullin how to coach a team or tell him to change staff. I think appropriately that he thinks of Chris as a strong ally, and he is there to support basketball, not run it. If he thinks the HC position isn't working out, he is also smart enough to know that he cannot act with the complete buy in of Gempeshaw and key member of the board.

This season has ended miserably, and I think the team could have played a lot better even considering the lack of height and depth. On the plus side we made our 3rd tournament in nine seasons, and there are a lot of sometimes formidable programs who have not done as well. As we watch NCAA games, so many teams represented themselves well in losses. In our 3 tourney games, SJU did not.

My opinion is that Mullin will be back for a 5th season, and must recruit a solid roster that goes 8 deep minimally and is balanced with talent on the front line and backcourt. If that happens for 20-21, he will be back for a 6th season also. After that, who knows.[/quote]

Agree and expect CM and MC to work together. I'm sure there's a lot of mutual respect there. As for the culture, every single thing you point to(IE interaction with fans, better facilities, etc) are all steps towards changing the culture. We need a better foundation, with that will come a change to how the basketball program is perceived, and the kind of staff and kids it will attract.
 
Monte, I see your point, but the truth is every program has to deal with defections every year. Didn't many of the people willing to give Mullin more time just say it's the new age in college hoops with all the transfers? If everyone has to go through it, why excuse Mullin? By the way the very reason Tariq transferred was at least in part because he felt he wasn't being developed here. Whose fault is that? He would've stayed if we were successful and Mullin could get him developed. Also, as you said a lot of your post assumes Mullin is willing to work to change some things. So far the evidence and rumblings have been that he is stubborn and we have not seen any changes despite the same glaring weaknesses year after year. I hope he takes an honest look at things and can take advice from others then really implement change.
 
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[quote="Mike Zaun" post=336393]Monte, I see your point, but the truth is every program has to deal with defections every year. Didn't many of the people willing to give Mullin more time just say it's the new age in college hoops with all the transfers? If everyone has to go through it, why excuse Mullin? By the way the very reason Tariq transferred was at least in part because he felt he wasn't being developed here. Whose fault is that? He would've stayed if we were successful and Mullin could get him developed. Also, as you said a lot of your post assumes Mullin is willing to work to change some things. So far the evidence and rumblings have been that he is stubborn and we have not seen any changes despite the same glaring weaknesses year after year. I hope he takes an honest look at things and can take advice from others then really implement change.[/quote]

Mike I am not and have not defended Chris. All I'm saying is that I'm willing to give some time to see if he makes the needed changes. I'll admit, part of this is emotional because of my admiration for Chris. I was a senior when Chris was a freshman. I'll also a Brooklyn guy through and through. He's provided more wonderful memories for most of us than any other player who's ever donned the Redme uniform. In so many ways he was and is the face of SJU basketball. For that alone I feel like he deserves the benefit of the doubt, for a little while longer. If there was not encouraging signs that change is coming, then I'd feel the same way as you. But for now I'm willing to wait it out and see what changes are made over the next few months.
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=336393]Monte, I see your point, but the truth is every program has to deal with defections every year. Didn't many of the people willing to give Mullin more time just say it's the new age in college hoops with all the transfers? If everyone has to go through it, why excuse Mullin? By the way the very reason Tariq transferred was at least in part because he felt he wasn't being developed here. Whose fault is that? He would've stayed if we were successful and Mullin could get him developed. Also, as you said a lot of your post assumes Mullin is willing to work to change some things. So far the evidence and rumblings have been that he is stubborn and we have not seen any changes despite the same glaring weaknesses year after year. I hope he takes an honest look at things and can take advice from others then really implement change.[/quote]

No one is excusing Mullin - at all. The team could have and should have played better.

Insofar as Owens, he came in here as a bench player who basically could just block shots, and left here as a guy who could score and play defense. He developed a ton. A team with Final Four aspirations recruited him because of how much he had developed and likely not had any interest in the gawky kid who didn't do much at Tennessee. He left for greener pastures because frankly his dad was convinced that at SJU he should be a focal part of the offense and not just a 4rd or 4th or 5th option.

One thing we can all agree upon is that this years roster was not tall enough or deep enough. Whether we should have been further along with a deeper team with more talent is open to debate.

Whether this team played well with the talent we had is also debatable. My opinion is that we dild not play well for the talent we had. We executed poorly on offense, and were not nearly as aggressive defensively as we were last year. Not having an Owens to block shots likely contributed mightily to that.

So you see, when we don't cast aspersions, most of us can be rational when discussing how well the staff did this year with what they had. My impression was that the players play and coaches coach. Players who stink it up can't always be corrected by coaching, but in every case make the coaches look bad, and the coaches definitely looked bad at season's end.
 
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[quote="kranmars" post=336340]I do not how Cragg changes the culture of this club.

But I want this question answered first. Why "do you want to hurt me," why do you want to make me cry?

It is "time" because time is precious, I know. But this could be the best place uet in the Big East.

To do that, SJU must drop its "karma chameleon" act. Coaches, staff, players, you come and go, but loving this program would be easy if they followed our dreams, and won frequently.

I know if things don't change, a number of us, myself included will become more apathetic. And I know you'll miss me blind.

But I get this crazy feeling that chases in my head, it's nothing that you do to me, but SJU winning big. And then "I'll tumble for ya." Heck, the entire City will tumble for you.

That's all I got.[/quote]

That's all well and good but for now I'm stuck playing the Crying Game thinking of what could be and have been.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=336401]

So you see, when we don't cast aspersions, most of us can be rational when discussing how well the staff did this year with what they had. My impression was that the players play and coaches coach. Players who stink it up can't always be corrected by coaching, but in every case make the coaches look bad, and the coaches definitely looked bad at season's end.[/quote]

So its not the X's and the O's... its the Jimmy's and the Joe's?

I agree that coaches can only prepare their players and put them in a position to succeed. Players do have to execute.
I also agree that if all things are equal, the team with the better talent usually wins.

But Calipari would be working on his 12th title in a row if it was only about getting the most talented players. Coaching matters. At this level it matters a LOT.

I'll absolve this staff of all blame for the state of the program if you can point out to me 1 time this season Mullin took one of the starters out for taking a bad shot. Just one will do.

It shouldn't be hard, since this team hoisted more horrifically bad shots than any team I've ever seen outside of a rec league.
 
[quote="SJUFAN2" post=336431][quote="Beast of the East" post=336401]

So you see, when we don't cast aspersions, most of us can be rational when discussing how well the staff did this year with what they had. My impression was that the players play and coaches coach. Players who stink it up can't always be corrected by coaching, but in every case make the coaches look bad, and the coaches definitely looked bad at season's end.[/quote]

So its not the X's and the O's... its the Jimmy's and the Joe's?

I agree that coaches can only prepare their players and put them in a position to succeed. Players do have to execute.
I also agree that if all things are equal, the team with the better talent usually wins.

But Calipari would be working on his 12th title in a row if it was only about getting the most talented players. Coaching matters. At this level it matters a LOT.

I'll absolve this staff of all blame for the state of the program if you can point out to me 1 time this season Mullin took one of the starters out for taking a bad shot. Just one will do.

It shouldn't be hard, since this team hoisted more horrifically bad shots than any team I've ever seen outside of a rec league.[/quote]

Read again, carefully this time. Coaches are not absolved, not by a long shot. But all in all just about every one of our starters took ill advised shots, failed to make wide open looks, and stood around and watched while other teams rebounded. Certainly on the coaches heavily for this lousy brand of basketball, but upper classmen, which all 5 starters were, all culpable as well.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=336445][quote="SJUFAN2" post=336431][quote="Beast of the East" post=336401]

So you see, when we don't cast aspersions, most of us can be rational when discussing how well the staff did this year with what they had. My impression was that the players play and coaches coach. Players who stink it up can't always be corrected by coaching, but in every case make the coaches look bad, and the coaches definitely looked bad at season's end.[/quote]

So its not the X's and the O's... its the Jimmy's and the Joe's?

I agree that coaches can only prepare their players and put them in a position to succeed. Players do have to execute.
I also agree that if all things are equal, the team with the better talent usually wins.

But Calipari would be working on his 12th title in a row if it was only about getting the most talented players. Coaching matters. At this level it matters a LOT.

I'll absolve this staff of all blame for the state of the program if you can point out to me 1 time this season Mullin took one of the starters out for taking a bad shot. Just one will do.

It shouldn't be hard, since this team hoisted more horrifically bad shots than any team I've ever seen outside of a rec league.[/quote]

Read again, carefully this time. Coaches are not absolved, not by a long shot. But all in all just about every one of our starters took ill advised shots, failed to make wide open looks, and stood around and watched while other teams rebounded. Certainly on the coaches heavily for this lousy brand of basketball, but upper classmen, which all 5 starters were, all culpable as well.[/quote]

I agree Beast. It is on everyone and not just Mully. The title is SJU Culture and the latest transfer U culture has been a failure imo.
When I look at Auburn and Texas Tech in the Final 4 with Michigan State it reinforces my belief that we took a gamble on players, who as good as they were, were not starter material at their previous schools except for Heron who was used in a free form system opposite of the disciplined Bruce Pearl system where every player knew what was expected of them and got an ear full when they played for themselves. Same at TT where Owens rarely even thought of taking a three. Clark and Simon would never have started on their former teams.....never.
Big changes are needed to establish a winning culture here.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=336445][quote="SJUFAN2" post=336431][quote="Beast of the East" post=336401]

So you see, when we don't cast aspersions, most of us can be rational when discussing how well the staff did this year with what they had. My impression was that the players play and coaches coach. Players who stink it up can't always be corrected by coaching, but in every case make the coaches look bad, and the coaches definitely looked bad at season's end.[/quote]

So its not the X's and the O's... its the Jimmy's and the Joe's?

I agree that coaches can only prepare their players and put them in a position to succeed. Players do have to execute.
I also agree that if all things are equal, the team with the better talent usually wins.

But Calipari would be working on his 12th title in a row if it was only about getting the most talented players. Coaching matters. At this level it matters a LOT.

I'll absolve this staff of all blame for the state of the program if you can point out to me 1 time this season Mullin took one of the starters out for taking a bad shot. Just one will do.

It shouldn't be hard, since this team hoisted more horrifically bad shots than any team I've ever seen outside of a rec league.[/quote]

Read again, carefully this time. Coaches are not absolved, not by a long shot. But all in all just about every one of our starters took ill advised shots, failed to make wide open looks, and stood around and watched while other teams rebounded. Certainly on the coaches heavily for this lousy brand of basketball, but upper classmen, which all 5 starters were, all culpable as well.[/quote]

I got it the first time, thanks. "Players play and coaches coach" and the wins pile up. Brilliant and simple equation.

So when a bunch of 20 year old players take bad shot after bad shot how do you correct that problem? Let them figure it out on their own? Of course not. You coach/teach them by yanking their ass out of the game and explaining to them what they are doing wrong so they can learn, adjust and grow as a player.

If you don't, then you are allowing them to learn the wrong lesson...that there is no such thing as a bad shot.

The fact that nobody can point to one instance where Mullin lit into, or pulled a major player for a horrible shot choice is an indictment that this staff either doesn't have a clue what its doing, or that they don't believe there is such a thing as a bad shot.

I'm not sure which I'd consider worse, but I know that both are signs of bad coaching.
 
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