CBS coaches poll disses Lavin as being overrated

[bamafan]

 And this gets thrown around far too often. I don't do it that much so I don't feel bad saying I always thought he was shady (recruiting).

 

Crean?
Nah. Otherwise they would have been better a lot sooner
At Marquette he just got solid guys. Nothing over the top.

 

Fair point but everybody has 1 or 2 guys they just have bad feelings about. For whatever reason he rubs me the wrong way

 
Just curious-does the coaching tree he came from-Tom Izzo of Mich St rub you the wrong way also.

 

So since Quin Snider came from Coach K's coaching tree, I assume coach K stinks? Your logic doesn't add up.

 
It does if you were able to follow it. My point was that I disagreed with your opinion on Crean and was pointing out he coached under a great coach in Izzo. Crean did a very good job at Marquette and is rebuilding Indiana as last year they beat kentucky and recruiting has been going extremely well. But you are entitled to your opinion if Crean rubs you the wrong way I just don't understand why-maybe you can elaborate or maybe it is just a feeling you have which is all well and good if that is the case.

 

[sirvoo]

 And this gets thrown around far too often. I don't do it that much so I don't feel bad saying I always thought he was shady (recruiting).

 

Crean?
Nah. Otherwise they would have been better a lot sooner
At Marquette he just got solid guys. Nothing over the top.

 

Fair point but everybody has 1 or 2 guys they just have bad feelings about. For whatever reason he rubs me the wrong way

 
Just curious-does the coaching tree he came from-Tom Izzo of Mich St rub you the wrong way also.

 

So since Quin Snider came from Coach K's coaching tree, I assume coach K stinks? Your logic doesn't add up.

 
It does if you were able to follow it. My point was that I disagreed with your opinion on Crean and was pointing out he coached under a great coach in Izzo. Crean did a very good job at Marquette and is rebuilding Indiana as last year they beat kentucky and recruiting has been going extremely well. But you are entitled to your opinion if Crean rubs you the wrong way I just don't understand why-maybe you can elaborate or maybe it is just a feeling you have which is all well and good if that is the case.

 

I'm just not a big believer that because you come from a certain coaching tree you have the same morals/attributes/strengths as the head honcho of that tree I guess you can say. Crean couldn't polish Izzo's shoes and at the very least is an arrogant dbag (at worst he is a dirty recruiter which I have no evidence of)

 

[acrimony]

 Crean couldn't polish Izzo's shoes and at the very least is an arrogant dbag (at worst he is a dirty recruiter which I have no evidence of)

Hello!!! Way to throw out accusations when you have no proof. Crean has done an amazing job at both stops so far and pre season #1 after taking over for Kelvin.

Also, what makes him a dbag?

 

[redmannorth]

 Crean couldn't polish Izzo's shoes and at the very least is an arrogant dbag (at worst he is a dirty recruiter which I have no evidence of)

Hello!!! Way to throw out accusations when you have no proof. Crean has done an amazing job at both stops so far and pre season #1 after taking over for Kelvin.

Also, what makes him a dbag?

 

I too happen to think Cream is an excellent coach who I believe will now have a very good run at IU.
I can't understand why anybody would knock him.

 

[Amaseinyourface]

 Crean couldn't polish Izzo's shoes and at the very least is an arrogant dbag (at worst he is a dirty recruiter which I have no evidence of)

Hello!!! Way to throw out accusations when you have no proof. Crean has done an amazing job at both stops so far and pre season #1 after taking over for Kelvin.

Also, what makes him a dbag?

 

I too happen to think Cream is an excellent coach who I believe will now have a very good run at IU.
I can't understand why anybody would knock him.

 

I always really liked Crean myself

 

[Moose]

Looks like Sirvoo is solo on this issue. 

 

[crgreen]

Looks like Sirvoo is solo on this issue. 

 

I'm still reserving judgment on Crean myself. Too many whispers from too many old friends in Bloominton about Crean since arriving at IU (have I ever mentioned here that I went to IU? Theater/History major at a time O.G. Brockett was the Department Chair for the Hoosiers).

Really had a bad feeling after the way he handled the recruitiment of Matt Carlino. Matt was the #19 ranked Soph in the sountry, Crean came after him HARD. Got a committment that summer after his soph year. The kid and his family MOVED from Phoenix to Bloomington, Indiana for his junior year of high school. Crean, who was short a PG, pushed the kid to reclassify, and graduate after his junior year. Kid made it happen - only Crean stumbled onto another Guard who was a little. bigger, more mature, little more ready to contribute immediately (6'5 210 Victor Olapido), and DROPPED Carlino (since he hadn't finished his Jr. season yet, there was no LOI involved, just the verbal). Crean got what he wanted, Olapido as a 19 year old frosh got him almost 8pts and 4 boards, and 10pts 5 boards as a soph starter last year.

Of course, the 6'2 Carlino did okay as well. The family moved back to Arizona, and Matt ended up at BYU - where as a freshman starter, he put up 12.4 pts, 4.7 assists, 3.2 rebounds replacing Jimmer Fredette as the Cougars PG - leading them to a 26-9 record and the NCAA's last season.

Long way to simply say, I'm still on the fence on Crean. He got a lot of steam out of his Marquette run, but that was in a sense dumb luck. NO ONE had a clue that kid he signed, who had to redshirt as a partial qualifier his frosh year was a "career-maker recruit" - good yes. 20.7 pts, 7 rebs as a HS Senior, good enuf to finish 7th in voting for Illinois Mr. basketball behind Darius Miles, Andre Brown, Imari Sawyer, Cedric Banks, TJ Cummings, and Matt Lottich. But not good enuf to crack the RSCI top 100. They signed dwayne wade, and got D-WADE. Without that exposure, and the NCAA success Wade brought, not sure Crean is considered more than just a solid mid-level D-1 coach.

But hey, that's just me. After John Wooden and Bob Knight, I'm a pretty tough audience.

 

[Moose]

Looks like Sirvoo is solo on this issue. 

 

I'm still reserving judgment on Crean myself. Too many whispers from too many old friends in Bloominton about Crean since arriving at IU (have I ever mentioned here that I went to IU? Theater/History major at a time O.G. Brockett was the Department Chair for the Hoosiers).

Really had a bad feeling after the way he handled the recruitiment of Matt Carlino. Matt was the #19 ranked Soph in the sountry, Crean came after him HARD. Got a committment that summer after his soph year. The kid and his family MOVED from Phoenix to Bloomington, Indiana for his junior year of high school. Crean, who was short a PG, pushed the kid to reclassify, and graduate after his junior year. Kid made it happen - only Crean stumbled onto another Guard who was a little. bigger, more mature, little more ready to contribute immediately (6'5 210 Victor Olapido), and DROPPED Carlino (since he hadn't finished his Jr. season yet, there was no LOI involved, just the verbal). Crean got what he wanted, Olapido as a 19 year old frosh got him almost 8pts and 4 boards, and 10pts 5 boards as a soph starter last year.

Of course, the 6'2 Carlino did okay as well. The family moved back to Arizona, and Matt ended up at BYU - where as a freshman starter, he put up 12.4 pts, 4.7 assists, 3.2 rebounds replacing Jimmer Fredette as the Cougars PG - leading them to a 26-9 record and the NCAA's last season.

Long way to simply say, I'm still on the fence on Crean. He got a lot of steam out of his Marquette run, but that was in a sense dumb luck. NO ONE had a clue that kid he signed, who had to redshirt as a partial qualifier his frosh year was a "career-maker recruit" - good yes. 20.7 pts, 7 rebs as a HS Senior, good enuf to finish 7th in voting for Illinois Mr. basketball behind Darius Miles, Andre Brown, Imari Sawyer, Cedric Banks, TJ Cummings, and Matt Lottich. But not good enuf to crack the RSCI top 100. They signed dwayne wade, and got D-WADE. Without that exposure, and the NCAA success Wade brought, not sure Crean is considered more than just a solid mid-level D-1 coach.

But hey, that's just me. After John Wooden and Bob Knight, I'm a pretty tough audience.

 

Oh joy, you joined the party

 

[crgreen]

Looks like Sirvoo is solo on this issue. 

 .

 

Oh joy, you joined the party

 

A party of one is always so depressing, Moose.

 

[logen]

Looks like Sirvoo is solo on this issue. 

 

I'm still reserving judgment on Crean myself. Too many whispers from too many old friends in Bloominton about Crean since arriving at IU (have I ever mentioned here that I went to IU? Theater/History major at a time O.G. Brockett was the Department Chair for the Hoosiers).

Really had a bad feeling after the way he handled the recruitiment of Matt Carlino. Matt was the #19 ranked Soph in the sountry, Crean came after him HARD. Got a committment that summer after his soph year. The kid and his family MOVED from Phoenix to Bloomington, Indiana for his junior year of high school. Crean, who was short a PG, pushed the kid to reclassify, and graduate after his junior year. Kid made it happen - only Crean stumbled onto another Guard who was a little. bigger, more mature, little more ready to contribute immediately (6'5 210 Victor Olapido), and DROPPED Carlino (since he hadn't finished his Jr. season yet, there was no LOI involved, just the verbal). Crean got what he wanted, Olapido as a 19 year old frosh got him almost 8pts and 4 boards, and 10pts 5 boards as a soph starter last year.

Of course, the 6'2 Carlino did okay as well. The family moved back to Arizona, and Matt ended up at BYU - where as a freshman starter, he put up 12.4 pts, 4.7 assists, 3.2 rebounds replacing Jimmer Fredette as the Cougars PG - leading them to a 26-9 record and the NCAA's last season.

Long way to simply say, I'm still on the fence on Crean. He got a lot of steam out of his Marquette run, but that was in a sense dumb luck. NO ONE had a clue that kid he signed, who had to redshirt as a partial qualifier his frosh year was a "career-maker recruit" - good yes. 20.7 pts, 7 rebs as a HS Senior, good enuf to finish 7th in voting for Illinois Mr. basketball behind Darius Miles, Andre Brown, Imari Sawyer, Cedric Banks, TJ Cummings, and Matt Lottich. But not good enuf to crack the RSCI top 100. They signed dwayne wade, and got D-WADE. Without that exposure, and the NCAA success Wade brought, not sure Crean is considered more than just a solid mid-level D-1 coach.

But hey, that's just me. After John Wooden and Bob Knight, I'm a pretty tough audience.

 

Be curious as to your opinion of Wooden vis a vis Sam Gilbert. As for your "dumb luck" example for Crean, I imagine Wooden was just as fortunate that Lapchick left SJU and dropped Alcindor in Wooden's lap; my point is, there is "good luck" somewhere in every successful persons resume.

 

[McGarry2]

Logen would suggest you read Aldindor's bio it came down to Princeton, Michigan and UCLA. It seems that Wilt took the kid out to get his greens( terms in use back then ) and that was the end of any consideration of catholic school

 

[crgreen]

Looks like Sirvoo is solo on this issue. 

 

I'm still reserving judgment on Crean myself. Too many whispers from too many old friends in Bloominton about Crean since arriving at IU (have I ever mentioned here that I went to IU? Theater/History major at a time O.G. Brockett was the Department Chair for the Hoosiers).

Really had a bad feeling after the way he handled the recruitiment of Matt Carlino. Matt was the #19 ranked Soph in the sountry, Crean came after him HARD. Got a committment that summer after his soph year. The kid and his family MOVED from Phoenix to Bloomington, Indiana for his junior year of high school. Crean, who was short a PG, pushed the kid to reclassify, and graduate after his junior year. Kid made it happen - only Crean stumbled onto another Guard who was a little. bigger, more mature, little more ready to contribute immediately (6'5 210 Victor Olapido), and DROPPED Carlino (since he hadn't finished his Jr. season yet, there was no LOI involved, just the verbal). Crean got what he wanted, Olapido as a 19 year old frosh got him almost 8pts and 4 boards, and 10pts 5 boards as a soph starter last year.

Of course, the 6'2 Carlino did okay as well. The family moved back to Arizona, and Matt ended up at BYU - where as a freshman starter, he put up 12.4 pts, 4.7 assists, 3.2 rebounds replacing Jimmer Fredette as the Cougars PG - leading them to a 26-9 record and the NCAA's last season.

Long way to simply say, I'm still on the fence on Crean. He got a lot of steam out of his Marquette run, but that was in a sense dumb luck. NO ONE had a clue that kid he signed, who had to redshirt as a partial qualifier his frosh year was a "career-maker recruit" - good yes. 20.7 pts, 7 rebs as a HS Senior, good enuf to finish 7th in voting for Illinois Mr. basketball behind Darius Miles, Andre Brown, Imari Sawyer, Cedric Banks, TJ Cummings, and Matt Lottich. But not good enuf to crack the RSCI top 100. They signed dwayne wade, and got D-WADE. Without that exposure, and the NCAA success Wade brought, not sure Crean is considered more than just a solid mid-level D-1 coach.

But hey, that's just me. After John Wooden and Bob Knight, I'm a pretty tough audience.

 

Be curious as to your opinion of Wooden vis a vis Sam Gilbert. As for your "dumb luck" example for Crean, I imagine Wooden was just as fortunate that Lapchick left SJU and dropped Alcindor in Wooden's lap; my point is, there is "good luck" somewhere in every successful persons resume.

SORRY - REALLY MEANT THESE THREAD ENTRIES TO BE ABOUT CREAN, NOT UCLA!!!

Don't really see the "dumb luck" thing with Wooden/Alcindor. I mean, You ARE talking about the guy who went final 4 in '62, undefeated national Champs in '64, and champs again in '65, while Alcindor was still in high school, and Sam Gilbert was still a USC trojan football booster (other than his wife Mary teaching english at UCLA, Sam's involvement with the Bruins didn't start till after Wooden already had 3 national titles, and Alcindor/Allen were entering their junior years, and Wicks/Rowe/Patterson were already committed HS seniors.

There are "two coast" versions of Lew's signage - East coast one is Lapchick leaving otherwise guaranteed Lew to SJU, while the west coast version has Alcindor heroes and former UCLA Basketball stars Dr. Ralph Bunche, Jackie Robinson and Rafer Johnson triple-teaming Lew on behalf of UCLA and there being a potential dogfight looming before Lapchick left.....

If Crean had anywhere near the success WITHOUT Wade as he did with, maybe I'd see some validity in the take. But Wooden won 3 NCAA titles with Alcindor. He won SEVEN without him. One "perfect" season with him, 3 without him. Long about that 5th or 6th or 7th title, and 3rd or 4th perfect season, you'd think "luck" had pretty much dropped out of the equation.   

 

[cpavin]

Where would Calipari be on this list of he didn't win last season? hopefully Lavin isn't on the list next year. 

 

[fordham96]

Where would Calipari be on this list of he didn't win last season? hopefully Lavin isn't on the list next year. 

 

Right.

No doubt Roy Williams, with his $3 mil salary, HOF credentials and countless 5 star recruits lined up to play for him, goes to bed every night hoping and praying his name won't appear on a completely unscientific poll that no one cares about next year at this time.

Williams' top worries include this poll, his wife and kids, his basketball program and how they plan on beating Duke next year in that order of importance.

 

[redken]

Where would Calipari be on this list of he didn't win last season? hopefully Lavin isn't on the list next year. 

... Williams' top worries include this poll, his wife and kids, his basketball program and how they plan on beating Duke next year in that order of importance.

 

And that's exactly why he's overrated: he can't seem to get his priorities in order.

 

[bamafan]

So if D Wade was not that impressive of a recruit it means all schools "above" Marquette theoretically had a shot at him. You call it dumb luck but Crean must have seen things he liked about Wade. 

 

[LJSA]

Where would Calipari be on this list of he didn't win last season? hopefully Lavin isn't on the list next year. 

 

That's why I'm a little surprised Roy is on list -- a few years ago Self and Calipari would have been 1-2.

 

[logen]

Looks like Sirvoo is solo on this issue. 

 

I'm still reserving judgment on Crean myself. Too many whispers from too many old friends in Bloominton about Crean since arriving at IU (have I ever mentioned here that I went to IU? Theater/History major at a time O.G. Brockett was the Department Chair for the Hoosiers).

Really had a bad feeling after the way he handled the recruitiment of Matt Carlino. Matt was the #19 ranked Soph in the sountry, Crean came after him HARD. Got a committment that summer after his soph year. The kid and his family MOVED from Phoenix to Bloomington, Indiana for his junior year of high school. Crean, who was short a PG, pushed the kid to reclassify, and graduate after his junior year. Kid made it happen - only Crean stumbled onto another Guard who was a little. bigger, more mature, little more ready to contribute immediately (6'5 210 Victor Olapido), and DROPPED Carlino (since he hadn't finished his Jr. season yet, there was no LOI involved, just the verbal). Crean got what he wanted, Olapido as a 19 year old frosh got him almost 8pts and 4 boards, and 10pts 5 boards as a soph starter last year.

Of course, the 6'2 Carlino did okay as well. The family moved back to Arizona, and Matt ended up at BYU - where as a freshman starter, he put up 12.4 pts, 4.7 assists, 3.2 rebounds replacing Jimmer Fredette as the Cougars PG - leading them to a 26-9 record and the NCAA's last season.

Long way to simply say, I'm still on the fence on Crean. He got a lot of steam out of his Marquette run, but that was in a sense dumb luck. NO ONE had a clue that kid he signed, who had to redshirt as a partial qualifier his frosh year was a "career-maker recruit" - good yes. 20.7 pts, 7 rebs as a HS Senior, good enuf to finish 7th in voting for Illinois Mr. basketball behind Darius Miles, Andre Brown, Imari Sawyer, Cedric Banks, TJ Cummings, and Matt Lottich. But not good enuf to crack the RSCI top 100. They signed dwayne wade, and got D-WADE. Without that exposure, and the NCAA success Wade brought, not sure Crean is considered more than just a solid mid-level D-1 coach.

But hey, that's just me. After John Wooden and Bob Knight, I'm a pretty tough audience.

 

Be curious as to your opinion of Wooden vis a vis Sam Gilbert. As for your "dumb luck" example for Crean, I imagine Wooden was just as fortunate that Lapchick left SJU and dropped Alcindor in Wooden's lap; my point is, there is "good luck" somewhere in every successful persons resume.

SORRY - REALLY MEANT THESE THREAD ENTRIES TO BE ABOUT CREAN, NOT UCLA!!!

Don't really see the "dumb luck" thing with Wooden/Alcindor. I mean, You ARE talking about the guy who went final 4 in '62, undefeated national Champs in '64, and champs again in '65, while Alcindor was still in high school, and Sam Gilbert was still a USC trojan football booster (other than his wife Mary teaching english at UCLA, Sam's involvement with the Bruins didn't start till after Wooden already had 3 national titles, and Alcindor/Allen were entering their junior years, and Wicks/Rowe/Patterson were already committed HS seniors.

There are "two coast" versions of Lew's signage - East coast one is Lapchick leaving otherwise guaranteed Lew to SJU, while the west coast version has Alcindor heroes and former UCLA Basketball stars Dr. Ralph Bunche, Jackie Robinson and Rafer Johnson triple-teaming Lew on behalf of UCLA and there being a potential dogfight looming before Lapchick left.....

If Crean had anywhere near the success WITHOUT Wade as he did with, maybe I'd see some validity in the take. But Wooden won 3 NCAA titles with Alcindor. He won SEVEN without him. One "perfect" season with him, 3 without him. Long about that 5th or 6th or 7th title, and 3rd or 4th perfect season, you'd think "luck" had pretty much dropped out of the equation.   

 

My point is that ALL coaches need players, period. Sorry I wasn't more explicit but Bill Walton, Walt Hazzard, Marques Johnson etc. weren't exactly swiss cheese; but then you know that. Wooden was a great coach but his greatness did not show until he got great players; he didn't win without them; no one was canonizing him until he got them. But he's not alone; Coach K, Jim Calhoun, Bob Knight couldn't either. It's pretty much the reason Phil Jackson was a great coach, Red Auerbach too. Amazing what a genuis he became when he got Russell. To single out Crean is silly IMO. And I apologize for introducing UCLA, I mistakenly thought all your threads were about UCLA.

 

[logen]

Logen would suggest you read Aldindor's bio it came down to Princeton, Michigan and UCLA. It seems that Wilt took the kid out to get his greens( terms in use back then ) and that was the end of any consideration of catholic school

 

I have read the bio and since I have on two different occasions heard Kareem say otherwise, I'll go with that.

 

[SJUalum98]

 Another CBS Sports "poll"

Dirtiest Player Recruitment (St. John's recruits are all over this "poll")

CBSSports.com's college basketball quartet spent the July open recruiting period hobnobbing with nearly 100 coaches, brain-picking them on some of college basketball's current issues. From the best players to their comrades in coaching; from the AAU programs to the agents' involvement; from the rule changes to the NCAA as a whole. We had to promise them anonymity, and in exchange, they gave us honest answers. Over the next three weeks here on the blog, we'll be putting out one question per weekday and giving you the array of results, straight from the coaches' mouths.

Players getting cars and bags of money, parents getting jobs, family members getting new houses – dirty recruitments are legendary in college basketball. The movie “Blue Chips” glorified that aspect of the sport, although it's unclear how many (or even if) tractors have actually been involved in a five-star player's recruitment. There are numerous rumors and stories about various “shady” recruitments, but that doesn't mean everything is true. And this exercise in no way makes accusations, but presents an avenue for views of people directly involved. So we go to one of the best sources possible: coaches who have been around these types of recruitments for a decade.

The question is: Which player is perceived to have the dirtiest recruitment in the last 10 years?

Shabazz Muhammad: 15 percent
Anthony Davis: 13 percent
John Wall: 7 percent
Kyle Anderson: 7 percent
O.J. Mayo: 7 percent
Derrick Rose: 6 percent
Renardo Sidney: 6 percent
Terrence Jones: 3 percent
Tobias Harris: 3 percent
Chris Obekpa: 3 percent
Also received votes: DeMarcus Cousins, DeAndre Jordan, Anthony Randolph, Enes Kanter, Josh Selby, Lance Stephenson, Khem Birch, Rodney Hood, Norvel Pelle, Mario Austin, Terrence Jennings, J'Mison Morgan, Jordan Goodman, JaKarr Sampson, Jevon Thomas

Quotes that stuck:

On Shabazz Muhammad: “This deal was done for a long time. The other rumors and stuff were just smoke and mirrors. People on the inside knew this deal was done. I mean, he turned Kentucky down.”

On Anthony Davis: "I've never seen a recruitment get shut down as quickly as that one got shut down. I don't know they did it. But it was a strong play."

On John Wall: "Baylor hired John Wall's AAU coach and that still wasn't enough to get that deal done. That recruitment was on another level. And remember, Roy Williams basically stopped recruiting him. Best player in the country is from North Carolina, and North Carolina didn't really want anything to do with it. What does that tell you?"

Kyle Anderson: “A kid doesn't go across the country to a school that doesn't fit his style of play – and turn down some of the top East coast schools – without it being it unfair. It doesn't make sense from a basketball standpoint.”

Having trouble providing the link for this one