Best SJU big man you've seen

[quote="Paul Massell" post=385096][quote="MCNPA" post=385092][quote="Paul Massell" post=385088]Of the guys I've seen, Ty Grant has a legitimate argument as the most effective as a big but Berry would be the guy. [/quote]

Oddly enough, ty grant only averaged 7.3pts and 6.6 rebs for his career which isn’t amazing as far as numbers go. I wonder how all these guys compare stats-wise because often our memories of these guys is better than their real world production. Look at a guy like Champagnie who as a freshman (albeit not a big), has averaged 9.9 and 6.5 and it puts into perspective not only how good he is but the overall numbers in comparison.[/quote]

I knew that and I was going by the OP that specified guys who "weren't afraid to get into the trenches." Obviously Jayson Williams stats are way better than Grant but on those terms and as a player for St. John's (certainly in the NBA he became a beast) he was not as effective as Grant in my opinion. Stats are important but as a big man you are a presence. Can your teammates rely upon you to catch the ball? Can you get position on opposing bigs on both ends of the court. Things like that. At around 6'7 Grant was very strong and couldn't be bodied on either end. Pretty much money under the basket. He was undervalued and underused by his first coach but became much more effective when he got used.

I really like Champagnie and overall he will probably be a better basketball player than Grant, but he is not a dominating physical presence who will impose his will inside. He's a multi-dimensional player with inside/out skills.[/quote]

A healthy Grant and we're a Final 4 team in 1999. Maybe better...
 
I started watching SJU games when Sonny Dove was a soph so never saw Ellis in college. For me, best 4 I saw play at SJU were clearly Sonny Dove, Mel Davis, George Johnson & Walter Berry. Johnson & Dove 1 and 2 all time rebounders and Davis would probably have been all time leader if he played another year (averaged 16 plus rebounds in his two years).
 
[quote="NCJohnnie" post=385106]I started watching SJU games when Sonny Dove was a soph so never saw Ellis in college. For me, best 4 I saw play at SJU were clearly Sonny Dove, Mel Davis, George Johnson & Walter Berry. Johnson & Dove 1 and 2 all time rebounders and Davis would probably have been all time leader if he played another year (averaged 16 plus rebounds in his two years).[/quote]

Have to agree.
 
[quote="NCJohnnie" post=385072]Leroy Ellis & Sonny Dove have to be on any all big men team. Ellis averaged 24 ppg and 17rpg as a senior, pretty incredible stats and Dove was a great three year player for us.[/quote]
Case closed! :)
 
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[quote="MainMan" post=385111]Yet again, there is the WOODEN AWARD WINNER and everybody else.[/quote]

I loved Berry while here but has there been a wooden award winner who sank lower in the draft than Berry?

I remember Red Auerbach went on the Today show and they asked him about the upcoming NBA draft. They asked him about Berry, who he had not listed among the top players. Auerbach was brutally honest, and said "I wouldn't want him on my team. He doesn't play defense."
 
[quote="Section9" post=385071]Let's try to keep this to guys that were known for their ability to score inside and rebound so it's centers and power forwards who weren't afraid to get into the trenches.

My top three would be:

The Truth, probably the most versatile big we've ever had as he could hit the mid range jumper, take his man off the dribble and post up. Hid defense wasn't the greatest but that block against Pearl in the BE finals was enough.

Mel "Killer" Davis, at 6'7" he was an undersized PF but man was he tenacious around the basket, the best rebounder I have ever seen in an SJU uni. Plus he could score the ball in many different ways.

George Johnson, at 6'9" he wasn't tall for a true center but George was a double double machine game in game out, plus he was a solid defender. He wasn't spectacular but he just got the job done.

Honorable mention goes to The Whopper and Bill Wennington.

The best "big" team was '70-'71 under Mulzoff: Billy Phillips 7'1", Greg Cluess. 6'9", Tony Prince 6'9", Killer 6'7" and Billy Schaefffer 6'6". Davis, Schaeff, Cluess, and Phillips were the top four scorers that year.[/quote]
George Johnson was great. A top 5 player over the last 46 years. Best back to to the basket game of any player during that era
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=385104]I saw most of George Johnson's games. He was a beast in every way. Kent Benson was supposedly the top center in the country for an undefeated Indiana team, and when we played them in the Holiday festival, George absolutely took Benson to school and had him on the bench with 3 quick fouls in the opening 10 minutes of the game.[/quote]
Most under appreciated SJ star..His # belongs in the rafters and before some who are up there.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=385104]I saw most of George Johnson's games. He was a beast in every way. Kent Benson was supposedly the top center in the country for an undefeated Indiana team, and when we played them in the Holiday festival, George absolutely took Benson to school and had him on the bench with 3 quick fouls in the opening 10 minutes of the game.[/quote]
My vote:
Mystery recruit if he was a big :silly: being serious though agree with Beast and he cited exhibit A when I believe he was only a sophomore. Picked George over Walter because although he was only a tad bigger he just seemed like he could play as a big (center) a little better and was maybe just a little better all around player (not the unstoppable force WB was).
 
[quote="thetux1" post=385099]Does Ron Artest count. He matched up against big men[/quote]

Then you'd have to add Heron and Trimble.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=385116][quote="MainMan" post=385111]Yet again, there is the WOODEN AWARD WINNER and everybody else.[/quote]

I loved Berry while here but has there been a wooden award winner who sank lower in the draft than Berry?

I remember Red Auerbach went on the Today show and they asked him about the upcoming NBA draft. They asked him about Berry, who he had not listed among the top players. Auerbach was brutally honest, and said "I wouldn't want him on my team. He doesn't play defense."[/quote]

Meh, I don't care what he did or didn't do as a pro.

He was the most dominant player I've ever seen at SJU and that includes #20.
 
[quote="MCNPA" post=385092][quote="Paul Massell" post=385088]Of the guys I've seen, Ty Grant has a legitimate argument as the most effective as a big but Berry would be the guy. [/quote]

Oddly enough, ty grant only averaged 7.3pts and 6.6 rebs for his career which isn’t amazing as far as numbers go.[/quote]

Don't have the numbers in front of me, but the year Fran decided to bury him probably hurt his numbers a bit. He told Ty's mom to her face that her son wasn't good enough to play more, or something to that effect.
 
[quote="L J S A" post=385137][quote="MCNPA" post=385092][quote="Paul Massell" post=385088]Of the guys I've seen, Ty Grant has a legitimate argument as the most effective as a big but Berry would be the guy. [/quote]

Oddly enough, ty grant only averaged 7.3pts and 6.6 rebs for his career which isn’t amazing as far as numbers go.[/quote]

Don't have the numbers in front of me, but the year Fran decided to bury him probably hurt his numbers a bit. He told Ty's mom to her face that her son wasn't good enough to play more, or something to that effect.[/quote]

He told her who the starters were and said each was better than grant to my recollection
 
[quote="MainMan" post=385132][quote="Beast of the East" post=385116][quote="MainMan" post=385111]Yet again, there is the WOODEN AWARD WINNER and everybody else.[/quote]

I loved Berry while here but has there been a wooden award winner who sank lower in the draft than Berry?

I remember Red Auerbach went on the Today show and they asked him about the upcoming NBA draft. They asked him about Berry, who he had not listed among the top players. Auerbach was brutally honest, and said "I wouldn't want him on my team. He doesn't play defense."[/quote]

Meh, I don't care what he did or didn't do as a pro.

He was the most dominant player I've ever seen at SJU and that includes #20.[/quote]

More than a dozen teams passed on the player of the year in the draft because of their scouting of his college games. That has nothing to do with how he played as a pro.

But you make a valid point. Mark Jackson's pro career was vastly better than expected based on a college career
Kenny Smith and Pearl Washington had better collegiate careers but not good pro careers.
George Johnson's college career was better than his pro career.
Most players in the nba had great college careers, but there are many more great collegians who aren't likely to be pros. Harrison is a good example, but it doesn't diminish his college performance as it shouldn't for berry.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=385146][quote="L J S A" post=385137][quote="MCNPA" post=385092][quote="Paul Massell" post=385088]Of the guys I've seen, Ty Grant has a legitimate argument as the most effective as a big but Berry would be the guy. [/quote]

Oddly enough, ty grant only averaged 7.3pts and 6.6 rebs for his career which isn’t amazing as far as numbers go.[/quote]

Don't have the numbers in front of me, but the year Fran decided to bury him probably hurt his numbers a bit. He told Ty's mom to her face that her son wasn't good enough to play more, or something to that effect.[/quote]

He told her who the starters were and said each was better than grant to my recollection[/quote]

Ty surprised as a frosh on a really badly coached team. Mahoney had no idea how to use Z and Felipe once(if) he realized their limitations at the D1 level, and Mo, Derek and Rowan never panned out as BE starter material. He still was only a 7 and 7 guy, vs. Zendon who averaged 20 and 10 as a soph that year. The next year he rightly sat a lot more behind Z and Minlend who returned for his Sr year after a year off. He was the 5th man behind 4 guys who at least got a cup of joe in the NBA in his Jr year and again behind 3 NBA players and Bootsy as a Sr, though his numbers as a Sr of 10.5 and 8.6 are quite good and of course the injury late hut the teams chance in the game vs. OSU. Of course his senior year there really were no other options as a big man either. I get that we all like Ty because he was a fighter who overachieved vs. his abilities (I do too), and that most despise Z because he wasn't Lew Alcindor or Patrick Ewing, but putting Ty in the top big men in SJU history is, well, revisionist history. Unless of course you started watching basketball his senior year. Then you haven't really seen any productive STJ bigs at all so I might agree, though I would take AG over Ty myself, they were both little big men.
 
[quote="austour" post=385188][quote="Beast of the East" post=385146][quote="L J S A" post=385137][quote="MCNPA" post=385092][quote="Paul Massell" post=385088]Of the guys I've seen, Ty Grant has a legitimate argument as the most effective as a big but Berry would be the guy. [/quote]

Oddly enough, ty grant only averaged 7.3pts and 6.6 rebs for his career which isn’t amazing as far as numbers go.[/quote]

Don't have the numbers in front of me, but the year Fran decided to bury him probably hurt his numbers a bit. He told Ty's mom to her face that her son wasn't good enough to play more, or something to that effect.[/quote]

He told her who the starters were and said each was better than grant to my recollection[/quote]

Ty surprised as a frosh on a really badly coached team. Mahoney had no idea how to use Z and Felipe once(if) he realized their limitations at the D1 level, and Mo, Derek and Rowan never panned out as BE starter material. He still was only a 7 and 7 guy, vs. Zendon who averaged 20 and 10 as a soph that year. The next year he rightly sat a lot more behind Z and Minlend who returned for his Sr year after a year off. He was the 5th man behind 4 guys who at least got a cup of joe in the NBA in his Jr year and again behind 3 NBA players and Bootsy as a Sr, though his numbers as a Sr of 10.5 and 8.6 are quite good and of course the injury late hut the teams chance in the game vs. OSU. Of course his senior year there really were no other options as a big man either. I get that we all like Ty because he was a fighter who overachieved vs. his abilities (I do too), and that most despise Z because he wasn't Lew Alcindor or Patrick Ewing, but putting Ty in the top big men in SJU history is, well, revisionist history. Unless of course you started watching basketball his senior year. Then you haven't really seen any productive STJ bigs at all so I might agree, though I would take AG over Ty myself, they were both little big men.[/quote]

Glover was an animal. I liked both he and ty grant but Glover for me as well.
 
[quote="austour" post=385188] ... I get that we all like Ty because he was a fighter who overachieved vs. his abilities (I do too), and that most despise Z because he wasn't Lew Alcindor or Patrick Ewing, but putting Ty in the top big men in SJU history is, well, revisionist history. Unless of course you started watching basketball his senior year. Then you haven't really seen any productive STJ bigs at all so I might agree, though I would take AG over Ty myself, they were both little big men.[/quote]

I don't and didn't hate Zendon. I did like Zendon and he was effective in his own way but he was not exactly a power player as the OP indicated. I listed Grant based upon the parameters given and specific to both the title of the thread, and my own statement "of the guys I've seen"
Definitely weighted on his senior year because he was extremely effective on that team.
Early 80's I lived in a boys home. I was a default St John's fan because a lot of my family went there and even at a young age I said I was going there. One of the staff was a former college player from DC and later he and another staff also from DC (briefly in NBA) became my coach. Last I checked he was still lighting it up in the senior league in California in his 60s. These guys were G'town fans and friendly with John Thompson, good friends with Sugar Ray Leonard and a bunch of NBA players. So I watched every G'town game available. This guy would even let us watch tv at non tv times just to watch g'town games. It was a running competition between us St John's / G'town but I did not have the luxury of putting on the St John's games other than when they played g'town. So until mid 80s I actually have more memories of g'town than SJU. So big men start with Wennington and Berry for me and I was a teen then. From then on you basically have your choice of:
Williams, Werdann, Scott, Hamilton, Z, Grant, Glover and a few others that would not really be up for consideration. Doesn't exact seem like a stretch or revisionist history to me to think Grant deserves to be in the conversation.
 
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