Best 376 Colleges / St. John's

J

jerseyshorejohnny

Well-known member
 Recently took a look at the book by Princeton Review : THE BEST 361COLLEGES (2012 EDITION)

Book stated the following as it pertains to St. John's:

FRESHMAN PROFILE

Range SAT Critical Reading 480-590
Range SAT Math 490-620

Average High School GPA 3.20

% Graduated Top 10% of Class: 20%
% Graduated Top 25% of Class: 35%
% Graduated Top 50% of Class : 66%

Being the math whiz that I am, this means 34% of the freshman class were in the bottom half of their high school graduating class, which doesn't help in the U.S. News Rankings. No news bulletin there.

Diversity Stats:

% Male/Female 46/54
% from out of state 25%
% from public high schools 67%
% who live on campus : 30%
% African-American 18%
% Asian 18%
% Caucasian 37%
% Hispanic 16%
% International 4%

SELECTIVITY:

# of applicants: 54,871
% of applicants accepted: 46%
% of those accepted who attend: 12%

% Students graduating in 4 years: 36%
% of students graduating in 6 years : 58%

Most popular majors : Pharmacy, Liberal Studies, Psych, Accounting, Education.

As an aside, what surprised me somewhat is that colleges such as SIENA and MANHATTAN were not included. Go figure .
 
JSJ, this doesn't look too selective or terribly impressive, what do you think?.

Any idea, is this an improvement from recent years past? 

I wonder back in the day, 40's and 50's, lets say, was St. John's much more selective or better academically than it became in the 70's onward? Just curious. I was told that the two best Catholic schools in NYC, (when there were St. John's "Men" and Fordham "Men"), that St. John's was just a step behind Fordham, think that is not the case now.

When I attended, undergrad ('71-'75), it wasn't too hard to get into St. John's, I know that much.
 
Hello Brooklyn Redmen!

As an aside I was a student at St. John's the same time you were ('71-'75).

Without going into a long discussion and/or in depth analysis of the stats from AMERICA'S BEST COLLEGES, I would conclude that it's the bottom third of the student population that acts as an anchor on the school's academic reputation. Obviously, I am not breaking any new ground. We all know this.

You can't move up in the rankings when a third of your freshman class graduated in the bottom half their high school class.

That said, and as I have mentioned countless other times, the top third of St. John's students would have no problem competing at Fordham, Holy Cross, Siena, Nova, or Providence to name a few institutions of higher education.

While Fr. Harrington often states that the university receives over 50K applications annually, he doesn't go out of his way to point out that only 12% (or a little more than 1 in 10) of those accepted actually attend.

You have to wonder about some of the kids St. John's turns down.

When you have such a huge freshman class you are going to be stretching the quality standard.

I know a fair number of young men and women who are currently attending college or who have graduated in the last couple of years, and none of them even considered attending St. John's. That says something, and arguably it's not particularly positive. Needless to say, I don't get any particular pleasure stating this.
 
JSJ, I am and have been for the last 30 years a "Jersey" guy, living, working and raising the family in Bergen County, but my fondness for St. John's and Brooklyn never fades.

Growing up in Brooklyn in the '50s, '60s and '70s, and having a family that was not of means, my choices were Brooklyn College and St. John's (with a scholarship (not sports). I had an uncle who went to St. John's and St. John's Law and I guess that influenced me, but again, later on he asked me why I didn't go to a different school, like his kids did (Colgate, UVA etc., go figure!) My mom was insulted and told him off.

Most of my friends went to Brooklyn College and walked there so I was the contrarian and took my car to Staten Island, worked delivering flowers and met my beautiful wife at college. St. John's was very, very good to me. I got into St. John's Law which I was happy about, and the rest is history.

In my class at St. John's the top students could have easily handled the work at almost any academic institution, and for the very top kids--even the Ivies, but time, circumstance, money and lack of family/high school guidance did not make getting into a top flight college a big priority. At the same time, I totally agree that the top third of the students could hold their own almost anywhere.

Alas, when it came time to help my nieces and nephews and my own daughters with colleges, St. John's was not on the radar, sad to say. 

P.S. When I do hear of someone we know attending Alma Mater it makes me happy and nostalgic.
 
Improving the credentials of your student body is a process that takes time. I believe with the addition of dormitories St. John's has attracted, in general, better students and obviously students from areas other than the five boros. I also believe the improved facilities/appearance of St. John's will gradually help to attract better students. I have visited many schools with my children and St. John's is now an attractive looking school. I think there also is a momentum component. As your reputation gradually improves it becomes easier and easier to attract better students.  
 
Dorms have certainly been a plus for the university. According to Jim Pellow's book, TRANSFORMATIONAL LEADERSHIP, resident students have the highest SAT scores and high school GPA's than those that commute.

This may be tilting at windmills, but perhaps the university should place recruiters in states with the fastest growing populations of high school students, such as Texas, Georgia, Florida and North Carolina, for example.

Arguably, if the aforementioned recruiters lived in these states they would have the opportunity to forge strong relationships with local high school guidance counselors and administrative staff.

Bonuses could be awarded to those recruiters that exceed their benchmark goals.

Students from out of state comprise about a fifth of the current student population. Would it be unrealistic to have a goal of 30% by 2020 when the university celebrates it's 150th anniversary. No particular rhyme or reason for the stats (30% by 2020) but it doesn't seem to be an outrageous target, at least IMO.

In addition, at times I think St. John's has been a tad too modest when singing the praises of the accomplishments of many of their alumni. There is no reason to keep the identities of these men and women a secret. We have a great story to tell. Why not tell it often and at every opportunity.

Don't know how others feel, but IMO, it would be worth the time to entertain the thought of creating an alumni Hall of Fame which would be based on professional accomplishments as well as loyalty to the university

An initial class could include : Lou, Chris Mullin, Mike Repole, Mr. Taffner, Bill Montegoris, Gov. Cuomo, the late Gov. Carey, the recently passed Bob Shepard, Jack Kaiser, Mr. DaSilva, NYPD Commissioner Ray Kelly, and Peter Tobin. Needless to say, there are many candidates that would deserve to be chosen every year.

Perhaps this initiative could also include a Wall of Fame that could be showcased in St. Augustine or another location on campus. All members of the HOF would be honored by a plaque for all to admire and appreciate.

I would also create a book (as well as having it adapted for the university web site) for all students that would highlight the accomplishments of a good number of our grads and ask the editors of The Torch to highlight a distinguished grad in every one of their issues.
 
 resident students have the highest SAT scores and high school GPA's than those that commute

We have to watch ourselves here.
The above statistic is directly reflective of family income.
Let's remember why a lot of us went to STJ.
We could only afford to commute.
My family didn't have the resources for Kaplan, Princeton review, etc.
Going away to college was never an option.
My kids both went away to college, and I'm a huge proponent of going away to college.
But let us old guys remember that the names you want to nominate for the HOF were probably all commuters.
STJ should always be about those who don't have enough $.
I'd hate to see us become endee, G'town or beecee.
 
Hello TIS,

I think we can both agree that St. John's isn't going to morph into BC, G'Town or ND any time in the near future. I also think that a 30% resident/ 70% commuter ratio is a fair balance. While all of today's HOF'ers would be former commuters since St. John's only went to dorms a few yrs. ago, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that a fair number (not all, but a meaningful number) of future HOF'ers would be former resident students.

Like you, I went to St. John's because I didn't have the $$$ to go away to school and I don't have any regrets, although, like you, I would encourage someone to go away if they (and their parents) could swing it financially.

Also, 35 plus yrs. ago, I left St. John's with about $5K in student loans which is a fraction of what many grads leave with today.

I wouldn't disagree that St. John's should, to some degree, be about educating those who don't have flush bank accounts.

However, in today's economic malaise, I could not in good conscience recommend St. John's for someone who was majoring in sociology, or communications or psychology and is scheduled to assume student loan debt of $20K-$30K plus, particularly if they were from a family with an AGI of $50K or below (which is not uncommon at St. John's. In fact, it is my understanding that somewhere around 35%, and it may be slightly more, of the student population falls into this bracket)

As some would argue, today's St. John's is too expensive for many kids who are carbon copies of you and I years ago, and as a result are opting (or should be opting) for community colleges and/or CUNY or SUNY schools.

For the sake of the conversation, what would you recommend for this hypothetical student:

Entering freshman. Average kid. Single parent household. Mother unable to contribute to her education. Intended major: Communications. No scholarship but grant money that allows his/her bill to be $5K per semester.

Should he/she rack up the debt necessary to attend St. John's ?

 
 
Hello TIS,

I think we can both agree that St. John's isn't going to morph into BC, G'Town or ND any time in the near future. I also think that a 30% resident/ 70% commuter ratio is a fair balance. While all of today's HOF'ers would be former commuters since St. John's only went to dorms a few yrs. ago, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that a fair number (not all, but a meaningful number) of future HOF'ers would be former resident students.

Like you, I went to St. John's because I didn't have the $$$ to go away to school and I don't have any regrets, although, like you, I would encourage someone to go away if they (and their parents) could swing it financially.

Also, 35 plus yrs. ago, I left St. John's with about $5K in student loans which is a fraction of what many grads leave with today.

I wouldn't disagree that St. John's should, to some degree, be about educating those who don't have flush bank accounts.

However, in today's economic malaise, I could not in good conscience recommend St. John's for someone who was majoring in sociology, or communications or psychology and is scheduled to assume student loan debt of $20K-$30K plus, particularly if they were from a family with an AGI of $50K or below (which is not uncommon at St. John's. In fact, it is my understanding that somewhere around 35%, and it may be slightly more, of the student population falls into this bracket)

As some would argue, today's St. John's is too expensive for many kids who are carbon copies of you and I years ago, and as a result are opting (or should be opting) for community colleges and/or CUNY or SUNY schools.

For the sake of the conversation, what would you recommend for this hypothetical student:

Entering freshman. Average kid. Single parent household. Mother unable to contribute to her education. Intended major: Communications. No scholarship but grant money that allows his/her bill to be $5K per semester.

Should he/she rack up the debt necessary to attend St. John's ?

 
Click to expand...

Great question, and to quote my daughter, who chairs the English Dep't at one of Boston's colleges, "No student today should graduate college in major debt."
As always, we're basically on the same page. 
 
JSJ, Thanks for engaging in great discussions both on this site and on Johnny Jungle under your other alias.

As you know my biggest issue with SJU is the tuition inflation issue. A middle class family in Nassau County can not afford SJU anymore without their child taking out loans, let me provide a somewhat real life example.

Let's say in 13 years SJU's undergrad tuition spirals to $56,000 very realistic in todays day and age.

A couple earns $115,000 per year after taxes in 2024. But before they send their child to college, they are hit with the following:

Mortgage, Homeowners Insuransce, Flood, Property Taxes etc = $56,000(anticipating insurance and property taxes to increase from current levels)

$7,200 utilities(including phone, cable internet, heating gas,plus elecrtric)

$12,000 in commuting costs (car gas, wear and tear, car insuranc and LIRR ticket)

Right now $39,800 is left, and the family has not eaten yet include another $8,000 in food and other expenses

$31,800 left to pay a $56,000 tuition, the 18 year old freshman forced to take out student loans as his family's income limit is too high for federal, state grants.

Student graduates with a BS degree with over $90,000 in loans at age 22(not a great way to start life)

There lies the problem with SJU, Fordham, Villanova, Hofstra etc...

So what are the middle class Long Islander's real options,

NCC, CUNY and SUNY Stony Brook (commute from home) or pay a little more and go away upstate.  
 
 Even with the average stats posted above SJU is on the cusp of being a top 100 national university. To break into the top 75 would not be too difficult given SJU's location in the greatest city in America. Aside from raising the SAT requirement slightly and reducing the bottom 25% acceptance rate, what needs to be improved are the admissions and instructors in the schools of education, pharmacy, law and business. Improving the quality of those areas would put SJ over the top and it can happen in the next few years if the administration sets a realistic goal. The University of Texas is a top 50 school because of the quality in those four areas where they only admit the top 50% of a HS graduates. SJ can do the same. UT admits 48% of applicants and 80% live off campus.......Sound familiar?
 
JSJ, Thanks for engaging in great discussions both on this site and on Johnny Jungle under your other alias.

As you know my biggest issue with SJU is the tuition inflation issue. A middle class family in Nassau County can not afford SJU anymore without their child taking out loans, let me provide a somewhat real life example.

Let's say in 13 years SJU's undergrad tuition spirals to $56,000 very realistic in todays day and age.

A couple earns $115,000 per year after taxes in 2024. But before they send their child to college, they are hit with the following:

Mortgage, Homeowners Insuransce, Flood, Property Taxes etc = $56,000(anticipating insurance and property taxes to increase from current levels)

$7,200 utilities(including phone, cable internet, heating gas,plus elecrtric)

$12,000 in commuting costs (car gas, wear and tear, car insuranc and LIRR ticket)

Right now $39,800 is left, and the family has not eaten yet include another $8,000 in food and other expenses

$31,800 left to pay a $56,000 tuition, the 18 year old freshman forced to take out student loans as his family's income limit is too high for federal, state grants.

Student graduates with a BS degree with over $90,000 in loans at age 22(not a great way to start life)

There lies the problem with SJU, Fordham, Villanova, Hofstra etc...

So what are the middle class Long Islander's real options,

NCC, CUNY and SUNY Stony Brook (commute from home) or pay a little more and go away upstate.  
Click to expand...
 

You sum up some of the many reasons I'm planning on moving out of Long island this coming year. When one police officer on Long island is bringing in 150-200k/year, you know it is time to move on where taxes and cost of living are more affordable. My wife and I make good money, but not worth it for us to stay here.

As far as SJU goes, they're not so different than most others. They just need to make sure they don't out price their mission. Students these days simply don't have the option to go to college to "find themselves". It's unfortunate, but the way it is.
 
 Even with the average stats posted above SJU is on the cusp of being a top 100 national university. To break into the top 75 would not be too difficult given SJU's location in the greatest city in America. Aside from raising the SAT requirement slightly and reducing the bottom 25% acceptance rate, what needs to be improved are the admissions and instructors in the schools of education, pharmacy, law and business. Improving the quality of those areas would put SJ over the top and it can happen in the next few years if the administration sets a realistic goal. The University of Texas is a top 50 school because of the quality in those four areas where they only admit the top 50% of a HS graduates. SJ can do the same. UT admits 48% of applicants and 80% live off campus.......Sound familiar?
Click to expand...
 

School of pharmacy doesn't need any help with instructors. They put out grads with marketable degrees. The law school and business school need to do what it takes to improve their rank, simply for pedigree purposes. It matters in those fields much more than a field like pharmacy, where it really doesnt. Where SJU needs the most work are the schools where the lower third of SJU students reside. Any combo of cutting programs, developing different programs or elevating admission standards can do it. It's not complex. It just requires embarking on a bit of a different mission, to fine-tune SJU's standing in the academic community. I think SJU can both improve academic rep and be faithful to their mission.
 
MCN PA, good luck as long as you and your wife can land a job leaving NY for NC or parts southward it makes great sense.

Meanwhile I will keep planning to save for my childs education to a State funded institution. Unless they land a scholarship to my alma mater. Who knows maybe Fr. Maher or whomever the next President is will solve the tuition issue in the coming years.
 
MCN PA, good luck as long as you and your wife can land a job leaving NY for NC or parts southward it makes great sense.

Meanwhile I will keep planning to save for my childs education to a State funded institution. Unless they land a scholarship to my alma mater. Who knows maybe Fr. Maher or whomever the next President is will solve the tuition issue in the coming years.
Click to expand...
 

I'm a Physician assistant and my wife an RN. Jobs pretty strong in most places in those fields thankfully. I also plan on using the state schools to my advantage if I can. If I go down to nc, I'd love to send my boys to UNC or one of the other fine state programs, for pennies compared to what I'd pay at most places. I certainly would love to send my kids to the type of schools I always wanted to to, but more importantly they wanted to go to. SJU was great to me and I wouldn't change a thing. I would love for my kids to go away to school though, something I didn't do even though I could have.
 
How about St. John's U doing what a lot of middle 50-100 USNWR ranked law Schools are doing. They offer big Academic Scholarships to kids that apply and that might be a cut above their typical Admitted Student. So, for example, a kid applies to Fordham Law and Seton Hall, but Seton Hall offers $35-40,000. They entice this better than their average student to go to Seton Hall over Fordham, a better school with no money offer.

Law Schools do this selectively and it brings their rankings way up. 
 
A cousin of my wife, has a son who spent his first year at Seton Hall Law and then transferred to NYU because he felt that his job prospects would be better. It turned out to be the right decision for him as he was hired by a "white shoe" firm last year.

I guess one would have to decide if the scholarship would offset one's initial job prospects. 
 
 Even with the average stats posted above SJU is on the cusp of being a top 100 national university. To break into the top 75 would not be too difficult given SJU's location in the greatest city in America. Aside from raising the SAT requirement slightly and reducing the bottom 25% acceptance rate, what needs to be improved are the admissions and instructors in the schools of education, pharmacy, law and business. Improving the quality of those areas would put SJ over the top and it can happen in the next few years if the administration sets a realistic goal. The University of Texas is a top 50 school because of the quality in those four areas where they only admit the top 50% of a HS graduates. SJ can do the same. UT admits 48% of applicants and 80% live off campus.......Sound familiar?
Click to expand...
 

While you correctly cite some similarities between UT and St. John's, there are quite a few meaningful differences, such as the cost of tuition, which I know you are aware. At Texas, tuition for in-stae residents pay less than $10K a year. In fact, list price for tuition and room and board is LESS than the list price for tuition at St. John's.

In addition, there are some stats that are used in the U.S. News ranking which do not favor St. John's such as the 4 yr. graduation rate which is 36% compared with 50% at Texas. Another stat that does not favor St. John's (in the U.S. News rankings) is their retention rate which is in the 80% neighborhood.

As far as a college town, Austin is one heck of a town. I realize St. John's is only a taxi ride away from Manhattan, but its immediate surrounding can't compare with that of the University of Texas.

The question to ask is why do so many "above average" candidates do not even consider St. John's, particularly those potential candidates in the tri-state area.

Why are these kids applying to Providence, or Scranton, or Siena or Marist but not St. John's?

On that same line of thought, why is it that St. John's has had to admit so many kids that finished in the bottom half of their high school class. In fact, these students now account for a third of the freshman class.

Yes, applications are at an all time high, but a little more than 1 in 10 who are accepted actually attend.

It's not so much the class rank that is troubling but the idea that many of these kids do not have the skill set to tackle college work on their arrival at St. John's. Arguably, these kids are not as well prepared as many were years ago. I am amazed at how many kids receive Regents diplomas today, and yet they still need to take remedial courses when they enter college.

For better or worse, any institution is only as strong as its weakest link. At times, I think the better students at St. John's are not recognized for their accomplishments because of the overall rep (not bad, not great) of the university in the eyes of the general public.

It will be very interesting to see what if any, strategic changes the next president of the university will make in the years ahead.  
 
 JSJ, If you were to predict it how many more years will Fr. Harrington remain as President. I heard from an employee at the school, that he thinks there is a very good chance that Fr. Jim Maher will be the next President of the school.

Do you think the BOT nudged Jim Pellow out of the picture?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top