Becoming a good program

M

Marillac

Active member
The tone of the board since the Xavier loss has turned extremely negative. Many have suggested that Coach Lavin's seat is or--at least should be--getting warm. I think this is all very premature. Coach Lavin's first full recruiting class hasn't even hit the midway point of their junior season!

Like most of you, I am disappointed that we lost to Xavier, but Xavier is model program that should give all of us a reason to be patient. Our current crop of players arrived to a situation created by Norm's poor balancing of scholarships that resulted in no quality seniors, juniors, or even sophs. We didn't even have experienced walkons. They had to hold an open tryout, because the only returning walkon on was Jamal White. The only returning scholarship player was a guard who quit the team before season's end. Sure, the guys got great experience and logged minutes, but they developed bad habits, they weren't pushed enough in practice by older, talented players, and they fell into a culture of losing. Having vets on your roster doesn't only help the team that season, it often has very profound residual effects on teams that will follow.

Take the trio of Martin-Davis-Philmore of Xavier. Those guys started on a team that went to the Sweet 16. They learned from a group of four year players that had never missed the NCAA tournament and made three Sweet 16s. Talk about a culture of winning. They got to go up against Tu Holloway, Kenny Frease, and Marky Lyons every day in practice.

Frease, Holloway, and Lyons got to learn from future NBA players like Jordan Crawford and Derrick Brown (who reached an Elite 8 in 2008). Brown and Crawford had the baton passed to them by members of the the 2004 Elite 8 team like Justin Gage, who played with the likes of former NBA player, Lionel Chalmers, who, in turn, played with NBA all-star David West on a team that advanced in the tournament. Winning breads winning. Xavier has made 13 of the last 16 NCAA tournaments, and have advanced to the Sweet 16 or further five times since 2004--more times than Kentucky in that span. It would have been 14/16 if not for redshirt-senior, Lyons, transferring to Arizona and Dez wells getting dismissed from the team. They have a system in place that works. They redshirt more players than anyone I've seen (even guys like Derrick Brown and Mark Lyons), and that dates back to Thad Matta. They also take in quality transfers like Stainbrook, Isiah Philmore, Jordan Crawford, and Remy Abel--all of whom sit out a year while practicing with the team. The scholarships are always balanced, and freshmen--if not redshirted--are rarely asked to do more than they are capable.

St. John's can become that kind of program, but it takes time. I think Coach Lavin will be a little more selective with recruits that have more college-ready skills going forward, and hopefully he can pickup a handful of young talented transfers along the way like Xavier has done.
 
St. John's can become that kind of program, but it takes time. I think Coach Lavin will be a little more selective with recruits that have more college-ready skills going forward, and hopefully he can pickup a handful of young talented transfers along the way like Xavier has done.
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As usual a reasonable post, but how much time?
 
The tone of the board since the Xavier loss has turned extremely negative. Many have suggested that Coach Lavin's seat is or--at least should be--getting warm. I think this is all very premature. Coach Lavin's first full recruiting class hasn't even hit the midway point of their junior season!

Like most of you, I am disappointed that we lost to Xavier, but Xavier is model program that should give all of us a reason to be patient. Our current crop of players arrived to a situation created by Norm's poor balancing of scholarships that resulted in no quality seniors, juniors, or even sophs. We didn't even have experienced walkons. They had to hold an open tryout, because the only returning walkon on was Jamal White. The only returning scholarship player was a guard who quit the team before season's end. Sure, the guys got great experience and logged minutes, but they developed bad habits, they weren't pushed enough in practice by older, talented players, and they fell into a culture of losing. Having vets on your roster doesn't only help the team that season, it often has very profound residual effects on teams that will follow.

Take the trio of Martin-Davis-Philmore of Xavier. Those guys started on a team that went to the Sweet 16. They learned from a group of four year players that had never missed the NCAA tournament and made three Sweet 16s. Talk about a culture of winning. They got to go up against Tu Holloway, Kenny Frease, and Marky Lyons every day in practice.

Frease, Holloway, and Lyons got to learn from future NBA players like Jordan Crawford and Derrick Brown (who reached an Elite 8 in 2008). Brown and Crawford had the baton passed to them by members of the the 2004 Elite 8 team like Justin Gage, who played with the likes of former NBA player, Lionel Chalmers, who, in turn, played with NBA all-star David West on a team that advanced in the tournament. Winning breads winning. Xavier has made 13 of the last 16 NCAA tournaments, and have advanced to the Sweet 16 or further five times since 2004--more times than Kentucky in that span. It would have been 14/16 if not for redshirt-senior, Lyons, transferring to Arizona and Dez wells getting dismissed from the team. They have a system in place that works. They redshirt more players than anyone I've seen (even guys like Derrick Brown and Mark Lyons), and that dates back to Thad Matta. They also take in quality transfers like Stainbrook, Isiah Philmore, Jordan Crawford, and Remy Abel--all of whom sit out a year while practicing with the team. The scholarships are always balanced, and freshmen--if not redshirted--are rarely asked to do more than they are capable.

St. John's can become that kind of program, but it takes time. I think Coach Lavin will be a little more selective with recruits that have more college-ready skills going forward, and hopefully he can pickup a handful of young talented transfers along the way like Xavier has done.
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I find it odd that we now have to live up to the day when we can emulate Xavier, a school that not long ago was in the Atlantic 10. I support Lavin. But the bottom line is we havent been able to rebuild this program since the Pittsburgh fiasco. I dont buy the argment that Lavin's recruits have yet to reach the mid point of their junior season because the players today just dont stay that long in the first place. Look at Kentucky and many other schools who win with underclassmen. That is the new reality in college basketball. Unfortunately, if we dont win with Lavin (and this is why we all must support him and pray that he gets some x and o advice) we will never rebuild this program. If Lavin fails, who comes next? What players will want to come here as we sink to mid major and lower level. We can all just head to Stout's have a beer, talk about the "good old days" and cry.
 
The tone of the board since the Xavier loss has turned extremely negative. Many have suggested that Coach Lavin's seat is or--at least should be--getting warm. I think this is all very premature. Coach Lavin's first full recruiting class hasn't even hit the midway point of their junior season!

Like most of you, I am disappointed that we lost to Xavier, but Xavier is model program that should give all of us a reason to be patient. Our current crop of players arrived to a situation created by Norm's poor balancing of scholarships that resulted in no quality seniors, juniors, or even sophs. We didn't even have experienced walkons. They had to hold an open tryout, because the only returning walkon on was Jamal White. The only returning scholarship player was a guard who quit the team before season's end. Sure, the guys got great experience and logged minutes, but they developed bad habits, they weren't pushed enough in practice by older, talented players, and they fell into a culture of losing. Having vets on your roster doesn't only help the team that season, it often has very profound residual effects on teams that will follow.

Take the trio of Martin-Davis-Philmore of Xavier. Those guys started on a team that went to the Sweet 16. They learned from a group of four year players that had never missed the NCAA tournament and made three Sweet 16s. Talk about a culture of winning. They got to go up against Tu Holloway, Kenny Frease, and Marky Lyons every day in practice.

Frease, Holloway, and Lyons got to learn from future NBA players like Jordan Crawford and Derrick Brown (who reached an Elite 8 in 2008). Brown and Crawford had the baton passed to them by members of the the 2004 Elite 8 team like Justin Gage, who played with the likes of former NBA player, Lionel Chalmers, who, in turn, played with NBA all-star David West on a team that advanced in the tournament. Winning breads winning. Xavier has made 13 of the last 16 NCAA tournaments, and have advanced to the Sweet 16 or further five times since 2004--more times than Kentucky in that span. It would have been 14/16 if not for redshirt-senior, Lyons, transferring to Arizona and Dez wells getting dismissed from the team. They have a system in place that works. They redshirt more players than anyone I've seen (even guys like Derrick Brown and Mark Lyons), and that dates back to Thad Matta. They also take in quality transfers like Stainbrook, Isiah Philmore, Jordan Crawford, and Remy Abel--all of whom sit out a year while practicing with the team. The scholarships are always balanced, and freshmen--if not redshirted--are rarely asked to do more than they are capable.

St. John's can become that kind of program, but it takes time. I think Coach Lavin will be a little more selective with recruits that have more college-ready skills going forward, and hopefully he can pickup a handful of young talented transfers along the way like Xavier has done.
Click to expand...

I find it odd that we now have to live up to the day when we can emulate Xavier, a school that not long ago was in the Atlantic 10. I support Lavin. But the bottom line is we havent been able to rebuild this program since the Pittsburgh fiasco. I dont buy the argment that Lavin's recruits have yet to reach the mid point of their junior season because the players today just dont stay that long in the first place. Look at Kentucky and many other schools who win with underclassmen. That is the new reality in college basketball. Unfortunately, if we dont win with Lavin (and this is why we all must support him and pray that he gets some x and o advice) we will never rebuild this program. If Lavin fails, who comes next? What players will want to come here as we sink to mid major and lower level. We can all just head to Stout's have a beer, talk about the "good old days" and cry.
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Relax, Chicken Little.
Irrespective of conference affiliation, Xavier has been (conservatively) a top 15 program the last decade and a half. What's wrong with emulating a program that has been to five Sweet 16s and two Elite Eights in the last decade?
We have made the tournament once in the last decade...it's not like we are Kentucky. Is Providence a better team to you because they sat at the bottom of the mighty Big East? Honestly, who are we to be snobs?

St. John's had a ton of momentum going after the 2010-2011 season when we knocked off ranked opponents seemingly every week, made the tournament and gained a top 20 ranking. The returning guys could have really built on that...only problem is that there were no returning guys. Nine months after the season ended, every single scholarship player from that team was gone. TEN scholarship players left after the season--NINE lost to graduation.
 
The tone of the board since the Xavier loss has turned extremely negative. Many have suggested that Coach Lavin's seat is or--at least should be--getting warm. I think this is all very premature. Coach Lavin's first full recruiting class hasn't even hit the midway point of their junior season!

Like most of you, I am disappointed that we lost to Xavier, but Xavier is model program that should give all of us a reason to be patient. Our current crop of players arrived to a situation created by Norm's poor balancing of scholarships that resulted in no quality seniors, juniors, or even sophs. We didn't even have experienced walkons. They had to hold an open tryout, because the only returning walkon on was Jamal White. The only returning scholarship player was a guard who quit the team before season's end. Sure, the guys got great experience and logged minutes, but they developed bad habits, they weren't pushed enough in practice by older, talented players, and they fell into a culture of losing. Having vets on your roster doesn't only help the team that season, it often has very profound residual effects on teams that will follow.

Take the trio of Martin-Davis-Philmore of Xavier. Those guys started on a team that went to the Sweet 16. They learned from a group of four year players that had never missed the NCAA tournament and made three Sweet 16s. Talk about a culture of winning. They got to go up against Tu Holloway, Kenny Frease, and Marky Lyons every day in practice.

Frease, Holloway, and Lyons got to learn from future NBA players like Jordan Crawford and Derrick Brown (who reached an Elite 8 in 2008). Brown and Crawford had the baton passed to them by members of the the 2004 Elite 8 team like Justin Gage, who played with the likes of former NBA player, Lionel Chalmers, who, in turn, played with NBA all-star David West on a team that advanced in the tournament. Winning breads winning. Xavier has made 13 of the last 16 NCAA tournaments, and have advanced to the Sweet 16 or further five times since 2004--more times than Kentucky in that span. It would have been 14/16 if not for redshirt-senior, Lyons, transferring to Arizona and Dez wells getting dismissed from the team. They have a system in place that works. They redshirt more players than anyone I've seen (even guys like Derrick Brown and Mark Lyons), and that dates back to Thad Matta. They also take in quality transfers like Stainbrook, Isiah Philmore, Jordan Crawford, and Remy Abel--all of whom sit out a year while practicing with the team. The scholarships are always balanced, and freshmen--if not redshirted--are rarely asked to do more than they are capable.

St. John's can become that kind of program, but it takes time. I think Coach Lavin will be a little more selective with recruits that have more college-ready skills going forward, and hopefully he can pickup a handful of young talented transfers along the way like Xavier has done.
Click to expand...

I find it odd that we now have to live up to the day when we can emulate Xavier, a school that not long ago was in the Atlantic 10. I support Lavin. But the bottom line is we havent been able to rebuild this program since the Pittsburgh fiasco. I dont buy the argment that Lavin's recruits have yet to reach the mid point of their junior season because the players today just dont stay that long in the first place. Look at Kentucky and many other schools who win with underclassmen. That is the new reality in college basketball. Unfortunately, if we dont win with Lavin (and this is why we all must support him and pray that he gets some x and o advice) we will never rebuild this program. If Lavin fails, who comes next? What players will want to come here as we sink to mid major and lower level. We can all just head to Stout's have a beer, talk about the "good old days" and cry.
Click to expand...

Relax, Chicken Little.
Irrespective of conference affiliation, Xavier has been (conservatively) a top 15 program the last decade and a half. What's wrong with emulating a program that has been to five Sweet 16s and two Elite Eights in the last decade?
We have made the tournament once in the last decade...it's not like we are Kentucky. Is Providence a better team to you because they sat at the bottom of the mighty Big East? Honestly, who are we to be snobs?

St. John's had a ton of momentum going after the 2010-2011 season when we knocked off ranked opponents seemingly every week, made the tournament and gained a top 20 ranking. The returning guys could have really built on that...only problem is that there were no returning guys. Nine months after the season ended, every single scholarship player from that team was gone. TEN scholarship players left after the season--NINE lost to graduation.
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Marillac, no offense but guys like you have been starting threads about becoming a good program since the Brian Mahoney fiasco days. Yes, we have been the complete opposite of Xavier in every way possible, from coaches to fan support to college president. DePaul, Seton Hall and St. John's have all set the bar very low on the excellence scale and your Vincentian virtue of patience has been stretched to the outer limits. I was still fairly young when this program starting rebuilding under Fran Fraschilla and have gotten old watching failed choices as coaches from Jarvis to Roberts to Lavin have proved they have deep personality flaws that prevent them from ever reaching the professional level of past Xavier coaches. It is called gross institutional mismanagement on almost every level, both academic and athletic.
Not only is our current president an interim relic from Niagara but our current basketball conundrum is a regurgitation of failed promises.
It is interesting that you mention the senior class and lack of signed recruits at the end of the Roberts era. As of January 2014 we have three vacancies and not one signed recruit. If our bad press and coaching reviews continue the 2015 class can dry up faster than you can say rebuild from ground zero. With one year left on his contract there has been not a peep about renewal and some even think Lavin is hitting that Jarvis delusional stage. He even hinted in an interview that in his business coaches expect "to get fired"! That defeatist attitude seems to be slowly taking hold.
Every coach should be held accountable for performance but the great coaches with strong skill sets do not get fired, they move on to better programs such has been the case with the Xavier coaches over the past 15 years.
Accordingly, they have been to all the NCAA tourneys you mentioned but under a few different coaches, none of whom "expected" to be fired.
If you have not noticed, the seat is already hot and much of it by the coaches' own doing.
 
The tone of the board since the Xavier loss has turned extremely negative. Many have suggested that Coach Lavin's seat is or--at least should be--getting warm. I think this is all very premature. Coach Lavin's first full recruiting class hasn't even hit the midway point of their junior season!

Like most of you, I am disappointed that we lost to Xavier, but Xavier is model program that should give all of us a reason to be patient. Our current crop of players arrived to a situation created by Norm's poor balancing of scholarships that resulted in no quality seniors, juniors, or even sophs. We didn't even have experienced walkons. They had to hold an open tryout, because the only returning walkon on was Jamal White. The only returning scholarship player was a guard who quit the team before season's end. Sure, the guys got great experience and logged minutes, but they developed bad habits, they weren't pushed enough in practice by older, talented players, and they fell into a culture of losing. Having vets on your roster doesn't only help the team that season, it often has very profound residual effects on teams that will follow.

Take the trio of Martin-Davis-Philmore of Xavier. Those guys started on a team that went to the Sweet 16. They learned from a group of four year players that had never missed the NCAA tournament and made three Sweet 16s. Talk about a culture of winning. They got to go up against Tu Holloway, Kenny Frease, and Marky Lyons every day in practice.

Frease, Holloway, and Lyons got to learn from future NBA players like Jordan Crawford and Derrick Brown (who reached an Elite 8 in 2008). Brown and Crawford had the baton passed to them by members of the the 2004 Elite 8 team like Justin Gage, who played with the likes of former NBA player, Lionel Chalmers, who, in turn, played with NBA all-star David West on a team that advanced in the tournament. Winning breads winning. Xavier has made 13 of the last 16 NCAA tournaments, and have advanced to the Sweet 16 or further five times since 2004--more times than Kentucky in that span. It would have been 14/16 if not for redshirt-senior, Lyons, transferring to Arizona and Dez wells getting dismissed from the team. They have a system in place that works. They redshirt more players than anyone I've seen (even guys like Derrick Brown and Mark Lyons), and that dates back to Thad Matta. They also take in quality transfers like Stainbrook, Isiah Philmore, Jordan Crawford, and Remy Abel--all of whom sit out a year while practicing with the team. The scholarships are always balanced, and freshmen--if not redshirted--are rarely asked to do more than they are capable.

St. John's can become that kind of program, but it takes time. I think Coach Lavin will be a little more selective with recruits that have more college-ready skills going forward, and hopefully he can pickup a handful of young talented transfers along the way like Xavier has done.
Click to expand...

I find it odd that we now have to live up to the day when we can emulate Xavier, a school that not long ago was in the Atlantic 10. I support Lavin. But the bottom line is we havent been able to rebuild this program since the Pittsburgh fiasco. I dont buy the argment that Lavin's recruits have yet to reach the mid point of their junior season because the players today just dont stay that long in the first place. Look at Kentucky and many other schools who win with underclassmen. That is the new reality in college basketball. Unfortunately, if we dont win with Lavin (and this is why we all must support him and pray that he gets some x and o advice) we will never rebuild this program. If Lavin fails, who comes next? What players will want to come here as we sink to mid major and lower level. We can all just head to Stout's have a beer, talk about the "good old days" and cry.
Click to expand...

Relax, Chicken Little.
Irrespective of conference affiliation, Xavier has been (conservatively) a top 15 program the last decade and a half. What's wrong with emulating a program that has been to five Sweet 16s and two Elite Eights in the last decade?
We have made the tournament once in the last decade...it's not like we are Kentucky. Is Providence a better team to you because they sat at the bottom of the mighty Big East? Honestly, who are we to be snobs?

St. John's had a ton of momentum going after the 2010-2011 season when we knocked off ranked opponents seemingly every week, made the tournament and gained a top 20 ranking. The returning guys could have really built on that...only problem is that there were no returning guys. Nine months after the season ended, every single scholarship player from that team was gone. TEN scholarship players left after the season--NINE lost to graduation.
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Your post oozes positivity and I ask you again, what are the tangible, identifiable reasons for your optimism? I perfectly well understand it takes time to build a program but where in three years is the remotest of progress? These were generally highly rated players and which of them has has improved? Harrison, Greene, and Pointer are in their 3rd year in the progam and all 3 are essentially the same player they were as freshmen. Sampson was ROY last year, is he any better his second season? Where is the chemistry developing on this team? I don't care what Xavier has done and your rationale for our record. I look at this team and they are not well coached, with no role definition or style of play identity. I watched all 5 games New Years Day and I saw nine teams rebounding the ball on the defensive end and looking for a guard to run the ball up and set up an offense. Except SJU, where the rebounder (except for Obekpa who rebounds very infrequently anyway) puts his head down and dribbles away. Are guys playing to win or auditioning for the pros? I don't even know if Jordan is really a point guard because he rarely if ever gets the ball to push it. Three years into the program and we have two point guards who don't play point because evidently we don't need one; how has that worked out? We have NO, I repeat, NO shooters. We have a so porous defense now we lead the nation in blocks because there are so many block opportunities but we can't play our shooters because thay are evidently not athletic enough. So in a game dominated by good guard play and the 3 point shot, we have neither. We have absolutely no end game strategy except to hope someone makes a one on one play. I could go on and on because frankly I think this is one of the most poorly coached teams I have ever seen. I was wrong for a long time about Roberts, one of the last to see the reality, but someone really needs to convince me Lavin is any better; recruiting, I guess, but coaching, he is just as clueless. The two best coached teams in Lavin's era at SJU were with Dunlap here and that just can't be a coincidence.
 
The tone of the board since the Xavier loss has turned extremely negative. Many have suggested that Coach Lavin's seat is or--at least should be--getting warm. I think this is all very premature. Coach Lavin's first full recruiting class hasn't even hit the midway point of their junior season!

Like most of you, I am disappointed that we lost to Xavier, but Xavier is model program that should give all of us a reason to be patient. Our current crop of players arrived to a situation created by Norm's poor balancing of scholarships that resulted in no quality seniors, juniors, or even sophs. We didn't even have experienced walkons. They had to hold an open tryout, because the only returning walkon on was Jamal White. The only returning scholarship player was a guard who quit the team before season's end. Sure, the guys got great experience and logged minutes, but they developed bad habits, they weren't pushed enough in practice by older, talented players, and they fell into a culture of losing. Having vets on your roster doesn't only help the team that season, it often has very profound residual effects on teams that will follow.

Take the trio of Martin-Davis-Philmore of Xavier. Those guys started on a team that went to the Sweet 16. They learned from a group of four year players that had never missed the NCAA tournament and made three Sweet 16s. Talk about a culture of winning. They got to go up against Tu Holloway, Kenny Frease, and Marky Lyons every day in practice.

Frease, Holloway, and Lyons got to learn from future NBA players like Jordan Crawford and Derrick Brown (who reached an Elite 8 in 2008). Brown and Crawford had the baton passed to them by members of the the 2004 Elite 8 team like Justin Gage, who played with the likes of former NBA player, Lionel Chalmers, who, in turn, played with NBA all-star David West on a team that advanced in the tournament. Winning breads winning. Xavier has made 13 of the last 16 NCAA tournaments, and have advanced to the Sweet 16 or further five times since 2004--more times than Kentucky in that span. It would have been 14/16 if not for redshirt-senior, Lyons, transferring to Arizona and Dez wells getting dismissed from the team. They have a system in place that works. They redshirt more players than anyone I've seen (even guys like Derrick Brown and Mark Lyons), and that dates back to Thad Matta. They also take in quality transfers like Stainbrook, Isiah Philmore, Jordan Crawford, and Remy Abel--all of whom sit out a year while practicing with the team. The scholarships are always balanced, and freshmen--if not redshirted--are rarely asked to do more than they are capable.

St. John's can become that kind of program, but it takes time. I think Coach Lavin will be a little more selective with recruits that have more college-ready skills going forward, and hopefully he can pickup a handful of young talented transfers along the way like Xavier has done.
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Agree, would love to become a Xavier (and hope Xavier continues to have this type of success for the good of the new conference).

Also agree that any talk of Lavin going is premature. Not only is it too early to make that analysis on him in a vacuum, but there is a huge element of can we get someone better. I think most all of us would like a better game coach (as most all at UCLA seemed to want as well), but he took a program in a horrific situation in almost every regard besides having quality kids and raised the recruiting profile, media profile, etc. Not to mention made a tourney and has us at 9-4 right now.

But at the same time this is definitely Year 1 of results-oriented accountability for the program under him. It has been noted many times how few teams have as much RSCI talent as we do, and almost all of them have 1-2 years of experience. The only one who doesn't (Jordan) is the most highly rated recruit Lavin has gotten. There is no excuse not to make the NCAA Tournament with that level of talent and experience. If we're going to become a Xavier, the first step is getting a tournament bid with this group.

Accountability is air-tight, not leaky. Prior to the season, we were talking about needing to get a split with Wisco/Cuse, and while not doing so is more than understandable given how good those 2 teams have turned out to be, I would venture to say almost nobody would have predicted us to have those 2 losses, not win the Barclays, and lost to Xavier at this juncture. Doesn't mean the season is over by any stretch, but at the same time you can already see the small rationalizations starting to be formulated on here. Which is fine for now, but I don't think we can let it leak all the way to not making the tournament.
 
The tone of the board since the Xavier loss has turned extremely negative. Many have suggested that Coach Lavin's seat is or--at least should be--getting warm. I think this is all very premature. Coach Lavin's first full recruiting class hasn't even hit the midway point of their junior season!

Like most of you, I am disappointed that we lost to Xavier, but Xavier is model program that should give all of us a reason to be patient. Our current crop of players arrived to a situation created by Norm's poor balancing of scholarships that resulted in no quality seniors, juniors, or even sophs. We didn't even have experienced walkons. They had to hold an open tryout, because the only returning walkon on was Jamal White. The only returning scholarship player was a guard who quit the team before season's end. Sure, the guys got great experience and logged minutes, but they developed bad habits, they weren't pushed enough in practice by older, talented players, and they fell into a culture of losing. Having vets on your roster doesn't only help the team that season, it often has very profound residual effects on teams that will follow.

Take the trio of Martin-Davis-Philmore of Xavier. Those guys started on a team that went to the Sweet 16. They learned from a group of four year players that had never missed the NCAA tournament and made three Sweet 16s. Talk about a culture of winning. They got to go up against Tu Holloway, Kenny Frease, and Marky Lyons every day in practice.

Frease, Holloway, and Lyons got to learn from future NBA players like Jordan Crawford and Derrick Brown (who reached an Elite 8 in 2008). Brown and Crawford had the baton passed to them by members of the the 2004 Elite 8 team like Justin Gage, who played with the likes of former NBA player, Lionel Chalmers, who, in turn, played with NBA all-star David West on a team that advanced in the tournament. Winning breads winning. Xavier has made 13 of the last 16 NCAA tournaments, and have advanced to the Sweet 16 or further five times since 2004--more times than Kentucky in that span. It would have been 14/16 if not for redshirt-senior, Lyons, transferring to Arizona and Dez wells getting dismissed from the team. They have a system in place that works. They redshirt more players than anyone I've seen (even guys like Derrick Brown and Mark Lyons), and that dates back to Thad Matta. They also take in quality transfers like Stainbrook, Isiah Philmore, Jordan Crawford, and Remy Abel--all of whom sit out a year while practicing with the team. The scholarships are always balanced, and freshmen--if not redshirted--are rarely asked to do more than they are capable.

St. John's can become that kind of program, but it takes time. I think Coach Lavin will be a little more selective with recruits that have more college-ready skills going forward, and hopefully he can pickup a handful of young talented transfers along the way like Xavier has done.
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Not to jump on the negative bandwagon, but what exactly has Lavin done to fix the scholarship balance problem? We have 1 freshman this year and no headline recruits coming in for next year. Maybe he'll grab some transfers this year, but at this rate we are going to be at square one again.

I agree with you that an away loss at Xavier is not going to kill our season. As evidence shows, that is a tremendously hard place to go in and win at. And there is a lot of basketball left to play. But it is very fair for fans to be concerned that (a) Lavin's substitution patterns are moronic (b) our players seem incapable of doing the fundamental things needed to win a basketball game. Shooting, passing, rebounding ... all things that seem to be evading our players. I'm sure as the season goes along this group of players will get better. But, I'm sorry, the whole this is a tough conference and I think we'll hit our stride in February rhetoric is old and frankly ridiculous. Lavin is an expensive coach (estimated to be nearly two million dollars a year) and you don't pay that type of money for 1 NCAA appearance every 4 years. For comparison purposes, Xavier coach Chris Mack got 485k last year and outcoached Lavin up and down the floor on Tuesday.
 
I think an X's and O's guy is a must. I remember Coach Carnesecca had John Kresse do much of that work. No coach can do everything well. I too am frustrated that we don't have guys that can box out and dominate in the paint consistently. We seem to play well different facets from game to game. Some games the D is great, others not so. Not a consistent result or effort. Our team needs to ripen more quickly. Might help if the attendance picks up too.
Hopefully, we can see Sanchez use his size more inside.
 
I think an X's and O's guy is a must. I remember Coach Carnesecca had John Kresse do much of that work. No coach can do everything well. I too am frustrated that we don't have guys that can box out and dominate in the paint consistently. We seem to play well different facets from game to game. Some games the D is great, others not so. Not a consistent result or effort. Our team needs to ripen more quickly. Might help if the attendance picks up too.
Hopefully, we can see Sanchez use his size more inside.
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Agree'd. Losing Dunlap I think was the worst thing that could have happened. My question is - What is Keady doing in all of this? Is he just on the bench to lend star power? The guy is a HoF coach right? Is he saying nothing about the substitution patterns, etc.?
 
This is a great thread. Thanks for starting it. I think the program overall is in great shape and clearly going in the right direction. However, it's the quality of play game to game that frustrates me. This team finally has some size upfront and the players can't box out. Our defensive rebounding is terrible. The guards continually let guys go by them. We rely on shot blocking and running. Offensively I see little continuity. Work the ball slowly around the perimeter and somebody makes a one on one move. The team's preparation have been lacking to say the least. Inserting Gift into the starting lineup is not the right move. Phil Greene is an effective spot shooter, but as soon as he puts in on the floor to facilitate bad things happen. Jordan has to play more minutes. The offense has to be designed to get players like Harrison more shots, and opportunities for Sampson and Pointer closer to the hoop. We did not make Xavier work at all on defense. Raftery said during the game - when Sanchez got the ball near the foul line on one play, "turn and make yourself a threat." I want to see a team, win or lose, that when you go against them you know you've been in a game.
 
The tone of the board since the Xavier loss has turned extremely negative.
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Status quo.... That's after every loss. Heck! It's also after some wins.

Wash, rinse, and repeat for some on here.
 
I think an X's and O's guy is a must. I remember Coach Carnesecca had John Kresse do much of that work. No coach can do everything well. I too am frustrated that we don't have guys that can box out and dominate in the paint consistently. We seem to play well different facets from game to game. Some games the D is great, others not so. Not a consistent result or effort. Our team needs to ripen more quickly. Might help if the attendance picks up too.
Hopefully, we can see Sanchez use his size more inside.
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Agree'd. Losing Dunlap I think was the worst thing that could have happened. My question is - What is Keady doing in all of this? Is he just on the bench to lend star power? The guy is a HoF coach right? Is he saying nothing about the substitution patterns, etc.?
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Keady may lend some ideas during the coaches down time, but he isn't allowed to have any input during games.
 
As usual a reasonable post, but how much time?
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If he gets less years than Norm, my love for this program may decrease dramatically.
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If Norm got 6 years, no conversation about Lavin's tenure should begin before the 6th year. I dont know who people think we are but we are not Kentucky, we are not Duke, and we are certainly not UCLA. Things are getting better but you can't expect to be a National champ in 4 years when he started literally with NOTHING!. We have come a long way from the Jarvis and Norm eras and that speaks volumes about Lavin and the program.

With the amount of talent (both players and coaches) and positive attention that Lavin has brought to SJU not to mention the clearly improving winning record we are becoming a good program and we will be a consistently good and well regarded program during Lavin's tenure.

So with all due respect... QUIT YOUR WHINING!
 
I think an X's and O's guy is a must. I remember Coach Carnesecca had John Kresse do much of that work. No coach can do everything well. I too am frustrated that we don't have guys that can box out and dominate in the paint consistently. We seem to play well different facets from game to game. Some games the D is great, others not so. Not a consistent result or effort. Our team needs to ripen more quickly. Might help if the attendance picks up too.
Hopefully, we can see Sanchez use his size more inside.
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Agree'd. Losing Dunlap I think was the worst thing that could have happened. My question is - What is Keady doing in all of this? Is he just on the bench to lend star power? The guy is a HoF coach right? Is he saying nothing about the substitution patterns, etc.?
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You are correct made this same statement weeks ago .Getting to look like he is just getting a paycheck Hope he is doing things we are unaware of ,but how do we see a HOF coach's influence?
 
There are some ominous signs for sure, but I agree with Marillac that it's still too early to give Lavin a grade. He's positioned us so that at worst - we're a competitive NIT team. All things considered, we've seen a lot worse. That doesn't mean I'm pleased. I think he's done a piss poor job preparing this team so far this season. There is simply no continuity or identity on offense; no reliable play; and no method to the madness late in the game. And, the defense is equally astray most of the time, but our athleticism in-part makes up for it. Nevertheless, I don't think it requires a genius to coach basketball, and I think at the end of the day coach knows enough to change course when something isn't working. For that reason alone, I remain hopeful that he'll find a winning formula at some point this year.


What I will say, however, is that Monasch gets off with way too easy around here. People are critical of coach, including myself, but at the end of the day coach reports to the AD. We can't call Lavin in to the office and say the offense looks lost, what's going to change the second half of the season? We didn't meet with the staff in the offseason and hear them layout what they were preparing to run this season and why. And we can't force coach to make changes to his staff; Monasch can.
At the end of the day all the things we complain about after bad losses are questions that the AD is not only allowed to ask his head coach, but in many cases it's actually his job to question decisions that don't work out. I don't get the sense that that is happening at all.
And while I like that coach doesn't berate his players and keeps a positive attitude, it would be refreshing after a loss to sometimes hear coach say "That was a very disappointing performance, we can and we must play better. The way we played is unacceptable, and I expect to see better practices this week".
I don't get the sense that there is accountability. And that needs to start at the top of the Athletic Department.
 
I don't know if you can say it's X's and O's that defines the problem. You can be John Wooden, but if the players can't put the ball in the hole you're not going to win, not even in a watered down conference like the Big East. Lavin coaches as if he's showcasing his players for the next level as opposed to winning ballgames. His best chance of recruiting top players is to have his guys make it to the NBA. That's what recruits want to see. He can no longer sell the Big East or St. John's as the highest level of college basketball.

It's time for a reality check viewed by someone who began following this program when Joe Lapchick was coach. Not everyone is going to be happy...least of all, me. However, it is what it is. When Lavin and his top quality assistants arrived, I thought we'd have a shot at replacing Syracuse as New York's team. We won't. We've always been star-crossed. Lavin has been unable to change our karma. We're still star crossed. There's no need for examples. You know them as well as anyone.

Lavin is a young Looie. He's a great face of the program. He has Hollywood good looks. He's intelligent and articulate. He gets the program on national television more often than Looie could with the exception of the mid 80s heyday. That's a considerable feat for a team that's 50th or 60th in the country in a conference that went from the best nationally to a clone of the Atlantic 10.

Lavin will produce Looie-like results. I predict we'll be in a post season (NCAA or NIT, the others don't count) every year he's coaching here. I predict we'll make no more than one final four in the next 20 years. I predict if Lavin sticks around he'll be the the College Basketball HOF. He won't be fired, because there's no one out there this school would hire who could do a better job.

It is what it is.
 
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