Anderson Conversation

[guinness77]

20+ years ago maybe. Today, not so much. There is no "media capital" in a digital world. MSG is a new kind of relic, like the Parthenon, held in high esteem for its history but not nearly as relevant today. And aren't there more college basketball dates at MSG that don't include St Johns than otherwise? Maybe if there were more than 4 home dates this would be important. Re Knicks v Nets, who do you think is more nationally discussed/relevant? If you say the Knicks you need to get out of NY more. All this coming from someone that generally considers New York the center of the universe by the way.

Haha, I know we’re going off-topic so I’ll stop at this. I did think the country cares more about the Knicks than the Nets so maybe I am showing my age. I’m not an NBA fan and I can’t stand Dolan so I will plead ignorance on that.

 

[SJUFAN2]

CMA is making market rate for his job. He is running what is an exponentially more competent program internally, from organizational structure to staffing to professionalism. Those are the plusses. I don't know where program stability and professionalism rate in the job description but I will say the shambles in the back office and on the staffs at the end of both of the previous coaches stays obviously had as much if not more to do with the end of their tenures than the accomplishments of their last seasons.

One obvious CMA minus is that he is not quite the high profile public face that a Lavin or Mullin is, which probably negatively impacts his recruiting (no one is getting star struck). Very few parents and players take a good hard look at the back office when they are picking a school. That could be an ongoing problem. Especially for the higher level recruits we all covet. But I am willing to admit that CMA and his approach are not sexy and that could be an ongoing problem.

Another key point which I shouldn't bring up but will is that STJ is nationally irrelevant and nothing, not even a few consecutive years in the dance, is going to change that. Cooley got Providence to the dance 5 years in a row, but they were still nationally irrelevant. Butler went to dances 4 out of 5 years and two consecutive final fours under Stevens and then 3 straight years with Holtmann, they are nationally irrelevant. Same goes for Xavier and Creighton despite sustained periods of success. The only nationally relevant programs in the BE are UConn, Nova and GTown. What rank and file hoops fans think of STJ and the BE isn't important except for the fact that most recruits and their parents are rank and file fans. Just something to keep in mind.

All that said I believe both Cragg and Anderson have set a bar for this year of Dance or Bust. If they don't make it then some long conversations will hopefully be had and some difficult decisions may need to be made. But I anticipate a dance this year and far less turmoil in the program than we became accustomed to under the last two coaches. At the same time I hope for better results on the recruiting trail.

This ^^^^

 

[SJUFAN2]

I agree with most of this post but St. John’s has two things the other Big East schools doesn’t. It is truly located in NYC, despite what other programs may claim and we play in the Garden. If this program can, you know, actually win and keep it even remotely sustained, I think we enter the National conversation.

I've read that same argument on this site for nearly 30 years. There's a kernel of truth to it, but lets face it: Fran, Jarvis, Norm, Lavin, Mullin and Anderson have failed to leverage that advantage into sustained success. Just saying, but maybe that isn't the advantage we'd like to think it is?

 

[SJUFAN2]

I’m just saying, the whole NYC/MSG aspect of SJU (would, of course) catapults us past the other schools you mention. Why do people still care about the Knicks? Even Brooklyn doesn’t get any respect.

Local people care about the knicks. Outside of a 50 mile radius from MSG, nobody thinks they are relevant this century. Why else has it been all but impossible for them to land an elite FA?

 

[guinness77]

Local people care about the knicks. Outside of a 50 mile radius from MSG, nobody thinks they are relevant this century. Why else has it been all but impossible for them to land an elite FA?

Um, we haven’t won anything. Literally.

Let’s also not pretend Fran, Jarvis and Lavin didn’t recruit well.

 

[bamafan]

We’re all going to get in deep doo doo with the mods for going off topic. So I’ll close with this question: do we still have a chance with King Carl?

 

[SJUFAN2]

Um, we haven’t won anything. Literally.

Let’s also not pretend Fran, Jarvis and Lavin didn’t recruit well.

In a sport that is "more about the Jimmy's and the Joe's than the X's and the O's", how well did you really recruit if you didn't win?
Fran had a good run recruiting for sure Jarvis for one class. Lavin for one class as well.
No sustained success for any of them for various reasons, one of which was that we as fans overvalue the draw of playing in MSG for the vast majority of kids we recruit.
When it comes down to it, a bag of cash for mom and dad is more important than playing in MSG 8 times a year.

 

[SJUFAN2]

We’re all going to get in deep doo doo with the mods for going off topic. So I’ll close with this question: do we still have a chance with King Carl?

I'm just trying to create more posts for LMF to move later...

 

[paultzman]

We’re all going to get in deep doo doo with the mods for going off topic. So I’ll close with this question: do we still have a chance with King Carl?

No

 

[Boo Harvey]

That's fair, and while we shouldn't make excuses, we shouldn't ignore facts and circumstances either. Fact is, neither of those last two coaches had their recruiting curtailed by a global pandemic, their schedules blown up and players held out of critical games due to covid rules and restrictions beyond their control.

Nobody deserves a free pass for those years but if you a critiquing them as if they were normal years in any other administration, that's a wee bit disingenuous.

Those are lame excuses. Every other school has faced the same circumstances

 

[austour]

Um, we haven’t won anything. Literally.

Let’s also not pretend Fran, Jarvis and Lavin didn’t recruit well.

Fran and Jarvis are 20+ years ago and a lot has changed in the national recruiting scene since then. Lavin had one amazing class (and to this day I wonder how he did it). Other than that he got 1 top 100 per year, CMA has done this two years running as well.

 

[SJUFAN2]

Those are lame excuses. Every other school has faced the same circumstances

Again. Not factually correct.
NY had VERY different conditions and requirements during the lock down. Especially in 2020-21.
Just look how many teams didn't play a full slate of games last year and the year before. Two years ago you had some that played 15 games in conference and others that played 20.
Hardly the "same" circumstances for all BE teams let alone all DI teams.
But whatever...you are entitled to want him gone. A reasonable argument can be made for going in a different direction even if we make the tournament this year. Nobody is saying otherwise and I haven't seen one person say he should absolutely be extended if he fails to make the tournament this year. Even if you needed that strawman to prop up your original assertion that his time here should be judged as his two predecessors.

 

[L J S A]

Despite what Meatloaf thinks, 2 out of 3 ain't that good.

It's a HoF career in baseball though.

 

[Dan V]

Who were the other options when Mike was hired? Why would it be any different this time around. If it’s Pitino fine, besides him who else is a guaranteed upgrade who will take the job. They could go for a young guy but the situation isn’t bad enough in my opinion to fire Anderson. The program is stable, recruiting looks good, great kids, now it’s just taking that next step. Also I want to see Gardner at SJU, which isn’t happening if Mike is fired. Worst case roster wise is losing Posh, Jones, Soriano, Curbelo, Mathis, Nyiwe after the season. That’s 7 guys coming back (Wusu, Pinzon, King, Storr, Stanley, Traore, Keita). That’s pretty solid, I’d be excited for that core plus Gardner and whoever else comes in.

 

[Boo Harvey]

CMA is making market rate for his job. He is running what is an exponentially more competent program internally, from organizational structure to staffing to professionalism. Those are the plusses. I don't know where program stability and professionalism rate in the job description but I will say the shambles in the back office and on the staffs at the end of both of the previous coaches stays obviously had as much if not more to do with the end of their tenures than the accomplishments of their last seasons.

One obvious CMA minus is that he is not quite the high profile public face that a Lavin or Mullin is, which probably negatively impacts his recruiting (no one is getting star struck). Very few parents and players take a good hard look at the back office when they are picking a school. That could be an ongoing problem. Especially for the higher level recruits we all covet. But I am willing to admit that CMA and his approach are not sexy and that could be an ongoing problem.

Another key point which I shouldn't bring up but will is that STJ is nationally irrelevant and nothing, not even a few consecutive years in the dance, is going to change that. Cooley got Providence to the dance 5 years in a row, but they were still nationally irrelevant. Butler went to dances 4 out of 5 years and two consecutive final fours under Stevens and then 3 straight years with Holtmann, they are nationally irrelevant. Same goes for Xavier and Creighton despite sustained periods of success. The only nationally relevant programs in the BE are UConn, Nova and GTown. What rank and file hoops fans think of STJ and the BE isn't important except for the fact that most recruits and their parents are rank and file fans. Just something to keep in mind.

All that said I believe both Cragg and Anderson have set a bar for this year of Dance or Bust. If they don't make it then some long conversations will hopefully be had and some difficult decisions may need to be made. But I anticipate a dance this year and far less turmoil in the program than we became accustomed to under the last two coaches. At the same time I hope for better results on the recruiting trail.

I don’t care how “competent” or “professional” the internal structure is. I care about results and I’ve yet to see any. If we don’t make the tournament this year, CMA will have done worse than his two predecessors and they did not set the bar particularly high. $2 million plus salary is “market” for a competitive program in a top conference which we have not been.

 

[Boo Harvey]

CMA is making market rate for his job. He is running what is an exponentially more competent program internally, from organizational structure to staffing to professionalism. Those are the plusses. I don't know where program stability and professionalism rate in the job description but I will say the shambles in the back office and on the staffs at the end of both of the previous coaches stays obviously had as much if not more to do with the end of their tenures than the accomplishments of their last seasons.

One obvious CMA minus is that he is not quite the high profile public face that a Lavin or Mullin is, which probably negatively impacts his recruiting (no one is getting star struck). Very few parents and players take a good hard look at the back office when they are picking a school. That could be an ongoing problem. Especially for the higher level recruits we all covet. But I am willing to admit that CMA and his approach are not sexy and that could be an ongoing problem.

Another key point which I shouldn't bring up but will is that STJ is nationally irrelevant and nothing, not even a few consecutive years in the dance, is going to change that. Cooley got Providence to the dance 5 years in a row, but they were still nationally irrelevant. Butler went to dances 4 out of 5 years and two consecutive final fours under Stevens and then 3 straight years with Holtmann, they are nationally irrelevant. Same goes for Xavier and Creighton despite sustained periods of success. The only nationally relevant programs in the BE are UConn, Nova and GTown. What rank and file hoops fans think of STJ and the BE isn't important except for the fact that most recruits and their parents are rank and file fans. Just something to keep in mind.

All that said I believe both Cragg and Anderson have set a bar for this year of Dance or Bust. If they don't make it then some long conversations will hopefully be had and some difficult decisions may need to be made. But I anticipate a dance this year and far less turmoil in the program than we became accustomed to under the last two coaches. At the same time I hope for better results on the recruiting trail.

You’re comparing nyc to Omaha, Cincinnati and Providence. We were very relevant in the 80s and we were selling out the Garden consistently in the Artest years. And btw, I’d be thrilled to enjoy Providence, Creighton and Xavier’s recent success (Xavier has struggled under Steel but before that they were tremendously successful).

The loser expectations and excuses that many on this Board have are infuriating. If we have $2 million a year to shell out to a coach we should expect to make the tournament regularly. That is not a high bar!

 

[Boo Harvey]

Again. Not factually correct.
NY had VERY different conditions and requirements during the lock down. Especially in 2020-21.
Just look how many teams didn't play a full slate of games last year and the year before. Two years ago you had some that played 15 games in conference and others that played 20.
Hardly the "same" circumstances for all BE teams let alone all DI teams.
But whatever...you are entitled to want him gone. A reasonable argument can be made for going in a different direction even if we make the tournament this year. Nobody is saying otherwise and I haven't seen one person say he should absolutely be extended if he fails to make the tournament this year. Even if you needed that strawman to prop up your original assertion that his time here should be judged as his two predecessors.

If anything we were less affected than many other programs during Covid bc the kids stayed comparatively healthy.

I’m all for giving CMA this year but that’s it. No excuses after four years. CMA has had plenty of opportunities.

 

[Johnny Rapper]

If anything we were less affected than many other programs during Covid bc the kids stayed comparatively healthy.

I’m all for giving CMA this year but that’s it. No excuses after four years. CMA has had plenty of opportunities.

Exactly Boo, especially in the first COVID season where the Johnnies were the only team in the BE I believe not to have the schedule disrupted, thanks to the diligence of the staff and organization to keep the kids healthy which resulted in a 4th place BE finish. Unfortunately the hood season was nullified by a poor OOC schedule and no Dance invite was forthcoming. However, the Johnnies certainly benefited from COVID that season. One only need to recall the Nova game the Johnnies won after the Wildcats came off a COVID pause only to pummel the Johnnies in their second meeting.

 

[rcatalano]

If CMA does not make the dance this year! He should be cut loose! No questions asked!

 

[rcatalano]

The fact that they gave him an extension for not even making the NIT is beyond ridiculous! You have to wonder about the competence of the people running this show!