All-Time SJU All-Defense Team
- Thread starter lawmanfan
- Start date
[quote="lawmanfan" post=391530]I would suggest that rebounds are only mildly relevant to defense. Not completely irrelevant, but definitely not a major factor[/quote]
How do you finish nearly all good defensive possessions?
Rebounding is to defense what making shots is to offense.
How do you finish nearly all good defensive possessions?
Rebounding is to defense what making shots is to offense.
Last edited:
This topic really shows that SJU with its proud hundred year bb tradition has had such a limited number of players that deserve the accolade of being elite defensive ball players.
[quote="Amaseinyourface" post=391547][quote="lawmanfan" post=391530]I would suggest that rebounds are only mildly relevant to defense. Not completely irrelevant, but definitely not a major factor[/quote]
How do you finish nearly all good defensive possessions?
Rebounding is to defense what making shots is to offense.[/quote]
I respectfully disagree. Starting from the far end of the court there's forcing the ball-handler to go where he doesn't want to go, or making him pass to a less-capable ball-handler. Add getting into the passing lanes to force the ball to where they don't want to go with it. Steals. Then in the frontcourt there is ball denial if you're on a scorer or shooter. Shot denial if you guard well enough to prevent him from getting to the spot he wants or to get the shot he wants or to force the ball to a secondary option. Drawing charges by having good enough foot movement to establish position. For bigs, physicality without fouling in the post to keep the opposing big off of his spot. Blocked shots.
Most of what goes into good D never shows up on a stat sheet. All a rebound means is that the the other team got a shot up and it didn't go in. Tells you nothing about how well that offensive possession was defended either individually or collectively - it's just the result of a missed shot.
I'm not denigrating rebounding in any way - every rebound you get is an extra possession for your team and one less for the other team, and it has its own skill set. But it doesn't have a lot to do with defense because by definition the rebound happens after the shot goes up, and defense is what happens before the shot goes up.
I also disagree with Enright - the players in the OP are all elite defenders. I understand why so many of our fans are so negative after all these years, but don't let it permeate everything. I've been watching the game for 40+ years and I haven't seen a lot of better defenders anywhere than Simon, Pointer, and Artest. Or anyone with as much heart and guts and strength as Glover.
How do you finish nearly all good defensive possessions?
Rebounding is to defense what making shots is to offense.[/quote]
I respectfully disagree. Starting from the far end of the court there's forcing the ball-handler to go where he doesn't want to go, or making him pass to a less-capable ball-handler. Add getting into the passing lanes to force the ball to where they don't want to go with it. Steals. Then in the frontcourt there is ball denial if you're on a scorer or shooter. Shot denial if you guard well enough to prevent him from getting to the spot he wants or to get the shot he wants or to force the ball to a secondary option. Drawing charges by having good enough foot movement to establish position. For bigs, physicality without fouling in the post to keep the opposing big off of his spot. Blocked shots.
Most of what goes into good D never shows up on a stat sheet. All a rebound means is that the the other team got a shot up and it didn't go in. Tells you nothing about how well that offensive possession was defended either individually or collectively - it's just the result of a missed shot.
I'm not denigrating rebounding in any way - every rebound you get is an extra possession for your team and one less for the other team, and it has its own skill set. But it doesn't have a lot to do with defense because by definition the rebound happens after the shot goes up, and defense is what happens before the shot goes up.
I also disagree with Enright - the players in the OP are all elite defenders. I understand why so many of our fans are so negative after all these years, but don't let it permeate everything. I've been watching the game for 40+ years and I haven't seen a lot of better defenders anywhere than Simon, Pointer, and Artest. Or anyone with as much heart and guts and strength as Glover.
Lawmanfan Wrote: Sir Dom getting G-League DPOY brought this topic to mind. Here are my picks, but I'm sure I'm overlooking lots of worthy contenders:
PG: Marcus Hatten
SG: Justin Simon
SF: Sir Dom
PF: Ron Artest
C: Anthony Glover
Honorable mention at PG: Boo Harvey
Probably the better choice at C but I will take Glover on my team every time: Jayson Williams
Would love to see others' opinions on this.
When I saw this topic title the first three names I thought of were Sir Dom, Ron Artest and Justin Simon. I did not think of Hatten immediately but as soon as saw your list I said, "Hatten of course." He was absolutely a phenomenal defensive player.
The one player of your five I might move out is Glover. Not to knock him because he was incredibly strong and hard to move on the blocks, but he was so undersized that he does not stick out to me as a defensive center at all. He mostly played power forward as I remember.
Personally I might add Paris Horne as a guard, move Simon to the small forward and let Sir Dom be the center because he could guard anyone and was a match up problem for bigger guys because of his quickness, athleticism and unbelievable leaping ability. If I had to add a True Center though, it might have to be George Johnson. Although in all fairness I was paying less attention in the seventies than more recently. A more recent true center is harder to come up with, but Robert Werdann always seemed pretty decent defensively to me.
Great topic lawmanfan and fun for me to think about. Thanks for the thread.
PG: Marcus Hatten
SG: Justin Simon
SF: Sir Dom
PF: Ron Artest
C: Anthony Glover
Honorable mention at PG: Boo Harvey
Probably the better choice at C but I will take Glover on my team every time: Jayson Williams
Would love to see others' opinions on this.
When I saw this topic title the first three names I thought of were Sir Dom, Ron Artest and Justin Simon. I did not think of Hatten immediately but as soon as saw your list I said, "Hatten of course." He was absolutely a phenomenal defensive player.
The one player of your five I might move out is Glover. Not to knock him because he was incredibly strong and hard to move on the blocks, but he was so undersized that he does not stick out to me as a defensive center at all. He mostly played power forward as I remember.
Personally I might add Paris Horne as a guard, move Simon to the small forward and let Sir Dom be the center because he could guard anyone and was a match up problem for bigger guys because of his quickness, athleticism and unbelievable leaping ability. If I had to add a True Center though, it might have to be George Johnson. Although in all fairness I was paying less attention in the seventies than more recently. A more recent true center is harder to come up with, but Robert Werdann always seemed pretty decent defensively to me.
Great topic lawmanfan and fun for me to think about. Thanks for the thread.
MarkRedman
Well-known member
[quote="Knight" post=391509][quote="Jeff Smith" post=391506]Leroy Ellis - 13.1 boards[/quote]
Mel Davis, 16.4 boards.[/quote]
I always wondered how good Mel would have been in the pros if he hadn't hurt his knee against Oral Roberts. He looked gun shy and played tentatively with the Knicks. Didn't play with the aggressiveness he always displayed at St John's
Mel Davis, 16.4 boards.[/quote]
I always wondered how good Mel would have been in the pros if he hadn't hurt his knee against Oral Roberts. He looked gun shy and played tentatively with the Knicks. Didn't play with the aggressiveness he always displayed at St John's
Last edited:
[quote="MarkRedman" post=391749][quote="Knight" post=391509][quote="Jeff Smith" post=391506]Leroy Ellis - 13.1 boards[/quote]
Mel Davis, 16.4 boards.[/quote]
I always wondered how good Mel would have been in the pros if he hadn't hurt his knee against Oral Roberts. He looked gun shy and played tentatively with the Knicks. Didn't play with the aggressiveness he always displayed at St John's[/quote]
Went to school with Mel. He was an aggressive player, especially rebounding. Great combo with Billy Schafer.
Mel Davis, 16.4 boards.[/quote]
I always wondered how good Mel would have been in the pros if he hadn't hurt his knee against Oral Roberts. He looked gun shy and played tentatively with the Knicks. Didn't play with the aggressiveness he always displayed at St John's[/quote]
Went to school with Mel. He was an aggressive player, especially rebounding. Great combo with Billy Schafer.
Thanks Lawmanfan for starting this topic. I like to hear about the players before I became a fan in the early 80’s. As a kid I was more impressed by the offensive players like Mullin and Berry. The two players who stand out in so many ways since then are Sealy and Artest. I would include them on any list. Barkley and Werdann were among the many strong supporting players for both of them. There have been a number of exciting players since our last NCAA tournament win so long ago which makes the drought all the more frustrating.
I am replying to Main Man's post here because I agree with him that Erick & Malik do not get credit as top defenders because of how complete they were as players. I have a couple of other nominees who I think fit in this way as well: My all-time defensive starting five is:
PG Erick who triggered lots of transition offense with steals and forced the opposition to start offense further from the basket than they wanted. He was the best press defender St. John's had at that position..
SG Lavar Postell I think some will quibble over position choice here but I would counter that by saying that when Lavar played with Bootsy Thornton he guarded the other team's top wing scorer, which was often the 2-guard
SF Sealy Just as his total game demonstrated he was a great combination of physical tools, smarts and toughness guarding both inside and outside.
PF Artest who wins this narrowly over Glover because of a little better ability to defend away from the basket.
C Walter Berry I get it that especially in '86 he was asked to play soft especially for the first 20 minutes to stay out of foul trouble. But the numbers say he averaged 9.9 RPG and he had 76 blocks in each of his seasons at St. John's. To these old eyes Walter also had the best timing I think I've ever seen and it helped him considerably in both those areas. Finally he has perhaps the single biggest defensive play in St. John's history with his block on Pearl following Ron Rowan's game winner vs da 'cuse in BET. He wins the center over George Johnson because of those shot blocks but George was the best low post defender I've seen at St. John's
PG Erick who triggered lots of transition offense with steals and forced the opposition to start offense further from the basket than they wanted. He was the best press defender St. John's had at that position..
SG Lavar Postell I think some will quibble over position choice here but I would counter that by saying that when Lavar played with Bootsy Thornton he guarded the other team's top wing scorer, which was often the 2-guard
SF Sealy Just as his total game demonstrated he was a great combination of physical tools, smarts and toughness guarding both inside and outside.
PF Artest who wins this narrowly over Glover because of a little better ability to defend away from the basket.
C Walter Berry I get it that especially in '86 he was asked to play soft especially for the first 20 minutes to stay out of foul trouble. But the numbers say he averaged 9.9 RPG and he had 76 blocks in each of his seasons at St. John's. To these old eyes Walter also had the best timing I think I've ever seen and it helped him considerably in both those areas. Finally he has perhaps the single biggest defensive play in St. John's history with his block on Pearl following Ron Rowan's game winner vs da 'cuse in BET. He wins the center over George Johnson because of those shot blocks but George was the best low post defender I've seen at St. John's
[quote="lawmanfan" post=391376]I sometimes wonder how much of the credit Willie Glass gets for his D stems from the fact that he couldn't play offense at all - people probably figured well, there has to be SOME reason he's out there. LOL. [/quote]
Glass wasn't much of an offensive player his first couple years (although, he flashed moments his sophomore season) at St. John's, but I thought he was a steady offensive player his last two seasons.
He was more than capable of hitting the 10' jumper, albeit a line drive, his junior and senior seasons, respectively. He didn't have a jumper, and it was what I'd consider unpolished, but I have no issues with his offensive game during his last two stanzas for the Johnnies.
Glass wasn't much of an offensive player his first couple years (although, he flashed moments his sophomore season) at St. John's, but I thought he was a steady offensive player his last two seasons.
He was more than capable of hitting the 10' jumper, albeit a line drive, his junior and senior seasons, respectively. He didn't have a jumper, and it was what I'd consider unpolished, but I have no issues with his offensive game during his last two stanzas for the Johnnies.
[quote="Section3" post=391429][quote="lawmanfan" post=391366]Sir Dom getting G-League DPOY brought this topic to mind. Here are my picks, but I'm sure I'm overlooking lots of worthy contenders:
PG: Marcus Hatten
SG: Justin Simon
SF: Sir Dom
PF: Ron Artest
C: Anthony Glover
Honorable mention at PG: Boo Harvey
Probably the better choice at C but I will take Glover on my team every time: Jayson Williams
Would love to see others' opinions on this.[/quote]
All very good defensive players. Hard to argue with any of them.
Others that I recall. . .
Beaver Smith (6’4” or so) was a great defender often guarding the oppositions top players including power forwards. Classic matchup vs. Bernard King at Alumni Hall back in the ‘70s.
George Johnson was an all around great player - both offensively and defensively.
Billy Goodwin, Lamont Middleton
More recently. . .Rutherford and Dunn are great defenders as well.[/quote]
I'd even add Chris Obekpa to the "more recently" category. There were times you could see the fear and hesitation of our opposition when Obekpa was lurking. He had impeccable timing, too.
PG: Marcus Hatten
SG: Justin Simon
SF: Sir Dom
PF: Ron Artest
C: Anthony Glover
Honorable mention at PG: Boo Harvey
Probably the better choice at C but I will take Glover on my team every time: Jayson Williams
Would love to see others' opinions on this.[/quote]
All very good defensive players. Hard to argue with any of them.
Others that I recall. . .
Beaver Smith (6’4” or so) was a great defender often guarding the oppositions top players including power forwards. Classic matchup vs. Bernard King at Alumni Hall back in the ‘70s.
George Johnson was an all around great player - both offensively and defensively.
Billy Goodwin, Lamont Middleton
More recently. . .Rutherford and Dunn are great defenders as well.[/quote]
I'd even add Chris Obekpa to the "more recently" category. There were times you could see the fear and hesitation of our opposition when Obekpa was lurking. He had impeccable timing, too.
[quote="jpm114" post=391800]I am replying to Main Man's post here because I agree with him that Erick & Malik do not get credit as top defenders because of how complete they were as players. I have a couple of other nominees who I think fit in this way as well: My all-time defensive starting five is:
PG Erick who triggered lots of transition offense with steals and forced the opposition to start offense further from the basket than they wanted. He was the best press defender St. John's had at that position..
SG Lavar Postell I think some will quibble over position choice here but I would counter that by saying that when Lavar played with Bootsy Thornton he guarded the other team's top wing scorer, which was often the 2-guard
SF Sealy Just as his total game demonstrated he was a great combination of physical tools, smarts and toughness guarding both inside and outside.
PF Artest who wins this narrowly over Glover because of a little better ability to defend away from the basket.
C Walter Berry I get it that especially in '86 he was asked to play soft especially for the first 20 minutes to stay out of foul trouble. But the numbers say he averaged 9.9 RPG and he had 76 blocks in each of his seasons at St. John's. To these old eyes Walter also had the best timing I think I've ever seen and it helped him considerably in both those areas. Finally he has perhaps the single biggest defensive play in St. John's history with his block on Pearl following Ron Rowan's game winner vs da 'cuse in BET. He wins the center over George Johnson because of those shot blocks but George was the best low post defender I've seen at St. John's[/quote]
Great list. I like it because all five were great all around players.
PG Erick who triggered lots of transition offense with steals and forced the opposition to start offense further from the basket than they wanted. He was the best press defender St. John's had at that position..
SG Lavar Postell I think some will quibble over position choice here but I would counter that by saying that when Lavar played with Bootsy Thornton he guarded the other team's top wing scorer, which was often the 2-guard
SF Sealy Just as his total game demonstrated he was a great combination of physical tools, smarts and toughness guarding both inside and outside.
PF Artest who wins this narrowly over Glover because of a little better ability to defend away from the basket.
C Walter Berry I get it that especially in '86 he was asked to play soft especially for the first 20 minutes to stay out of foul trouble. But the numbers say he averaged 9.9 RPG and he had 76 blocks in each of his seasons at St. John's. To these old eyes Walter also had the best timing I think I've ever seen and it helped him considerably in both those areas. Finally he has perhaps the single biggest defensive play in St. John's history with his block on Pearl following Ron Rowan's game winner vs da 'cuse in BET. He wins the center over George Johnson because of those shot blocks but George was the best low post defender I've seen at St. John's[/quote]
Great list. I like it because all five were great all around players.
[quote="jpm114" post=391800]I am replying to Main Man's post here because I agree with him that Erick & Malik do not get credit as top defenders because of how complete they were as players. I have a couple of other nominees who I think fit in this way as well: My all-time defensive starting five is:
PG Erick who triggered lots of transition offense with steals and forced the opposition to start offense further from the basket than they wanted. He was the best press defender St. John's had at that position..
SG Lavar Postell I think some will quibble over position choice here but I would counter that by saying that when Lavar played with Bootsy Thornton he guarded the other team's top wing scorer, which was often the 2-guard
SF Sealy Just as his total game demonstrated he was a great combination of physical tools, smarts and toughness guarding both inside and outside.
PF Artest who wins this narrowly over Glover because of a little better ability to defend away from the basket.
C Walter Berry I get it that especially in '86 he was asked to play soft especially for the first 20 minutes to stay out of foul trouble. But the numbers say he averaged 9.9 RPG and he had 76 blocks in each of his seasons at St. John's. To these old eyes Walter also had the best timing I think I've ever seen and it helped him considerably in both those areas. Finally he has perhaps the single biggest defensive play in St. John's history with his block on Pearl following Ron Rowan's game winner vs da 'cuse in BET. He wins the center over George Johnson because of those shot blocks but George was the best low post defender I've seen at St. John's[/quote]
Thanks - appreciate the informed opinion and the post. I agree with Barkley over Marcus and The Truth over Glover. We agree on Artest.
I don't think that from a defensive standpoint Lavor has anything on Simon, but I may suffer from a little recency bias on that. And it took Lavor a long time to get enough run (too long IMO).
Sealy is tough. I have no memory of his defense, but that may be because it's crowded out by his offense. Smoothest player I ever saw.
PG Erick who triggered lots of transition offense with steals and forced the opposition to start offense further from the basket than they wanted. He was the best press defender St. John's had at that position..
SG Lavar Postell I think some will quibble over position choice here but I would counter that by saying that when Lavar played with Bootsy Thornton he guarded the other team's top wing scorer, which was often the 2-guard
SF Sealy Just as his total game demonstrated he was a great combination of physical tools, smarts and toughness guarding both inside and outside.
PF Artest who wins this narrowly over Glover because of a little better ability to defend away from the basket.
C Walter Berry I get it that especially in '86 he was asked to play soft especially for the first 20 minutes to stay out of foul trouble. But the numbers say he averaged 9.9 RPG and he had 76 blocks in each of his seasons at St. John's. To these old eyes Walter also had the best timing I think I've ever seen and it helped him considerably in both those areas. Finally he has perhaps the single biggest defensive play in St. John's history with his block on Pearl following Ron Rowan's game winner vs da 'cuse in BET. He wins the center over George Johnson because of those shot blocks but George was the best low post defender I've seen at St. John's[/quote]
Thanks - appreciate the informed opinion and the post. I agree with Barkley over Marcus and The Truth over Glover. We agree on Artest.
I don't think that from a defensive standpoint Lavor has anything on Simon, but I may suffer from a little recency bias on that. And it took Lavor a long time to get enough run (too long IMO).
Sealy is tough. I have no memory of his defense, but that may be because it's crowded out by his offense. Smoothest player I ever saw.
prjohnnies
Member
I'd even add Chris Obekpa to the "more recently" category. There were times you could see the fear and hesitation of our opposition when Obekpa was lurking. He had impeccable timing, too.[/quote]
Purely as a fan, I still have some issues with Obekpa for his refusal to enter the Big East almost comeback against Providence -- I was sitting court side not far from him and saw the whole exchange firsthand, and couldn't believe he would do that in a game that if we won probably meant we were dancing (on a team that easily should have danced and arguably done some damage once there). And I thought what he did to our seniors in 14-15 was incredibly foolish and selfish because we may well have beaten San Diego St. and could have given Duke a run for their money in the next round based on how we matched up and played them earlier in the year.
All that said, he was indisputably one of the greatest shot blockers I've seen at the collegiate level in recent times. As you point out, his timing was incredible and there were games where the other team was completely disheveled by virtue of his presence at the rim. I specifically recall one game against Xavier at the Garden -- I think D-Lo's senior year -- where Obekpa and Dom were blocking or challenging everything at the rim and took a good X team out of their element to the point where they were almost afraid to take it anywhere near the paint. It was the game where one of their guards missed a leaner at the horn and we prevailed.
Purely as a fan, I still have some issues with Obekpa for his refusal to enter the Big East almost comeback against Providence -- I was sitting court side not far from him and saw the whole exchange firsthand, and couldn't believe he would do that in a game that if we won probably meant we were dancing (on a team that easily should have danced and arguably done some damage once there). And I thought what he did to our seniors in 14-15 was incredibly foolish and selfish because we may well have beaten San Diego St. and could have given Duke a run for their money in the next round based on how we matched up and played them earlier in the year.
All that said, he was indisputably one of the greatest shot blockers I've seen at the collegiate level in recent times. As you point out, his timing was incredible and there were games where the other team was completely disheveled by virtue of his presence at the rim. I specifically recall one game against Xavier at the Garden -- I think D-Lo's senior year -- where Obekpa and Dom were blocking or challenging everything at the rim and took a good X team out of their element to the point where they were almost afraid to take it anywhere near the paint. It was the game where one of their guards missed a leaner at the horn and we prevailed.
[quote="lawmanfan" post=391881][quote="jpm114" post=391800]I am replying to Main Man's post here because I agree with him that Erick & Malik do not get credit as top defenders because of how complete they were as players. I have a couple of other nominees who I think fit in this way as well: My all-time defensive starting five is:
PG Erick who triggered lots of transition offense with steals and forced the opposition to start offense further from the basket than they wanted. He was the best press defender St. John's had at that position..
SG Lavar Postell I think some will quibble over position choice here but I would counter that by saying that when Lavar played with Bootsy Thornton he guarded the other team's top wing scorer, which was often the 2-guard
SF Sealy Just as his total game demonstrated he was a great combination of physical tools, smarts and toughness guarding both inside and outside.
PF Artest who wins this narrowly over Glover because of a little better ability to defend away from the basket.
C Walter Berry I get it that especially in '86 he was asked to play soft especially for the first 20 minutes to stay out of foul trouble. But the numbers say he averaged 9.9 RPG and he had 76 blocks in each of his seasons at St. John's. To these old eyes Walter also had the best timing I think I've ever seen and it helped him considerably in both those areas. Finally he has perhaps the single biggest defensive play in St. John's history with his block on Pearl following Ron Rowan's game winner vs da 'cuse in BET. He wins the center over George Johnson because of those shot blocks but George was the best low post defender I've seen at St. John's[/quote]
Thanks - appreciate the informed opinion and the post. I agree with Barkley over Marcus and The Truth over Glover. We agree on Artest.
I don't think that from a defensive standpoint Lavor has anything on Simon, but I may suffer from a little recency bias on that. And it took Lavor a long time to get enough run (too long IMO).
Sealy is tough. I have no memory of his defense, but that may be because it's crowded out by his offense. Smoothest player I ever saw.[/quote]
Postell played often and a lot during each of his four seasons at St. John's. He played over 25 minutes per outing his freshman season.
PG Erick who triggered lots of transition offense with steals and forced the opposition to start offense further from the basket than they wanted. He was the best press defender St. John's had at that position..
SG Lavar Postell I think some will quibble over position choice here but I would counter that by saying that when Lavar played with Bootsy Thornton he guarded the other team's top wing scorer, which was often the 2-guard
SF Sealy Just as his total game demonstrated he was a great combination of physical tools, smarts and toughness guarding both inside and outside.
PF Artest who wins this narrowly over Glover because of a little better ability to defend away from the basket.
C Walter Berry I get it that especially in '86 he was asked to play soft especially for the first 20 minutes to stay out of foul trouble. But the numbers say he averaged 9.9 RPG and he had 76 blocks in each of his seasons at St. John's. To these old eyes Walter also had the best timing I think I've ever seen and it helped him considerably in both those areas. Finally he has perhaps the single biggest defensive play in St. John's history with his block on Pearl following Ron Rowan's game winner vs da 'cuse in BET. He wins the center over George Johnson because of those shot blocks but George was the best low post defender I've seen at St. John's[/quote]
Thanks - appreciate the informed opinion and the post. I agree with Barkley over Marcus and The Truth over Glover. We agree on Artest.
I don't think that from a defensive standpoint Lavor has anything on Simon, but I may suffer from a little recency bias on that. And it took Lavor a long time to get enough run (too long IMO).
Sealy is tough. I have no memory of his defense, but that may be because it's crowded out by his offense. Smoothest player I ever saw.[/quote]
Postell played often and a lot during each of his four seasons at St. John's. He played over 25 minutes per outing his freshman season.