http://www.bestcolleges.com/features/the-best-catholic-colleges/
I'm not sure what this list is based on. I'm sure many other factors.
I'm not sure what this list is based on. I'm sure many other factors.
40% stat that should concern SJU upper management
- Thread starter 19854ever
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tom in salem
Well-known member
Silent response to this list is deafening.
The issue is not whether or not a student's intelligence is related to family income but the fact that the kid from a low income family likely has more distractions and lacks the family support system than the kid from the upper/ middle class family does.
Below is a link to an article entitled "What Happens to Pell Grant Recipients After They Enroll?"
see also from the U.S. Department of Education Institute of Education Sciences National Center for Education Statistics"
"Six-year graduation rates for first-time, full-time students who began seeking a bachelor's degree in fall 2007 varied according to institutions' level of selectivity. In particular, graduation rates were highest at postsecondary degree-granting institutions that were the most selective (i.e., had the lowest admissions acceptance rates), and graduation rates were lowest at institutions that were the least selective (i.e., had open admissions policies). For example, at 4-year institutions with open admissions policies, 34 percent of students completed a bachelor's degree within 6 years. At 4-year institutions where the acceptance rate was less than 25 percent of applicants, the 6-year graduation rate was 89 percent."
=40
Below is a link to an article entitled "What Happens to Pell Grant Recipients After They Enroll?"
see also from the U.S. Department of Education Institute of Education Sciences National Center for Education Statistics"
"Six-year graduation rates for first-time, full-time students who began seeking a bachelor's degree in fall 2007 varied according to institutions' level of selectivity. In particular, graduation rates were highest at postsecondary degree-granting institutions that were the most selective (i.e., had the lowest admissions acceptance rates), and graduation rates were lowest at institutions that were the least selective (i.e., had open admissions policies). For example, at 4-year institutions with open admissions policies, 34 percent of students completed a bachelor's degree within 6 years. At 4-year institutions where the acceptance rate was less than 25 percent of applicants, the 6-year graduation rate was 89 percent."
=40
beast of the east
Active member
"These schools are ranked based on several criteria, including factors such as each school's reported acceptance, enrollment, retention and graduation rates."
You have to be careful when you look at rankings of universities, because based on certain stated criteria, schools can do their best to manipulate the results. For example, SJU reports the average SAT scores of accepted students as an indicator of the academic preparedness and prowess. However, they actively solicit top high school students to apply for free using a common app, not write an essay, and give an immediate response to the application - students who likely would not be applying to SJU. I fear they may do this solely to boost the average SAT scores of "accepted students" (as opposed to incoming freshman class) knowing full well that the overwhelming majority of those students will not select SJU. I seriously doubt that SJU is alone in pursuing activities designed to boost their rankings by practices that don't reflect the actual quality of students attending the school.
Here is a link to the top 4 year graduation rates, published by US News and World Report: http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/highest-grad-rate/page+2
Note that the Catholic schools I mentioned are all near the top of that list with 4 year graduation rates of 85-91%.
Taking more than 4 years to graduate also adds to student debt. A 5th year of tuition adds significantly to student loan debt. Too many students willingly take on this debt without any regard to the ROI of their college degree or their subsequent ability to repay that debt.
beast of the east
Active member
This is a good article, but based on your premise, I wonder if there is any data on the percentage of Pell students who have part time or full time jobs while attending college, as compared to non Pell students. It seems to me that when I attended SJU, nearly every student had a part time or full time job during the school year. Today it appears that fewer students work (Pell or not) actually work during the school year. If I had to take a wild guess, male college students (even at great schools) spend more time playing video games during the semester than actually working.
RedSlyFox
Member
WSJ Article - Poverty or Prosperity—Different Paths After College
Article is on how salaries vary widely for those who attended school in New York City.
Top 10 NYC higher-ed instuitions ranked by the medium earnings of students 10 years after they first enrolled in undergrad-degree programs.
1) SUNY Downstate: $121,500, 2) Polytech: $73,500, 3) Columbia: $72,900, 4) Manhattan: $63,600, 5) NYU: $58,800, 6) Pace: $58,400, 7) Barnard: $57,400, 8) Yeshiva: $55,600, 9) Fordam: $55,400, 10) St. John's: $54,100
http://www.wsj.com/articles/poverty-or-prosperitydifferent-paths-after-college-1443747608
Article is on how salaries vary widely for those who attended school in New York City.
Top 10 NYC higher-ed instuitions ranked by the medium earnings of students 10 years after they first enrolled in undergrad-degree programs.
1) SUNY Downstate: $121,500, 2) Polytech: $73,500, 3) Columbia: $72,900, 4) Manhattan: $63,600, 5) NYU: $58,800, 6) Pace: $58,400, 7) Barnard: $57,400, 8) Yeshiva: $55,600, 9) Fordam: $55,400, 10) St. John's: $54,100
http://www.wsj.com/articles/poverty-or-prosperitydifferent-paths-after-college-1443747608
We are probably well-served by not conflating economic capacity to attend college with economic pressure on family survival. There is lots of help available to assist college attendance. My comments were about things like job loss and illness that can devastate families and the many STJ and other students who are higher education pioneers for their families but unwilling to let their families under pressure collapse while they go off to college.
beast of the east
Active member
How would you account for Pell students at better universities not being affected by the same social circumstance at SJU students?
Don't know the answer and hesitate to answer it from my perspective as an education professional without doing real research, some of it qualitative and descriptive and not just data tracking.
I am a non-Catholic doctoral graduate of St. John's and am extremely proud of the Vincentian mission of the University. I suspect that in "walking the walk" St. John's takes risks on students that others reject.
I am a non-Catholic doctoral graduate of St. John's and am extremely proud of the Vincentian mission of the University. I suspect that in "walking the walk" St. John's takes risks on students that others reject.
beast of the east
Active member
Which was exactly my continual premise although given the financial gain by the university I questioned if serving the poor was their main objective.
"Taking the risk that other schools reject" costs the university nothing. They get Pell money to the tune of $30 million, fill their school with students when there is declining interest in the school, gain revenue from student loan money that the students take out, and by the largess of generous alumni, complete the full tuition revenue by assigning grants to these students. From a financial perspective, its all gain and no loss - except that these disadvantaged students don't graduate at acceptable rates, and then are left to ruin their personal finances by defaulting on student loans that they have no means to pay for.
tom in salem
Well-known member
Bingo.
Having spent 40 years in Ct., I'm all too familiar with the elitist parents sending their kids to the "best" colleges.
The vast majority have the means to send their kids to Hotchkiss, St. Paul's, Phillips Andover, etc.
Thrust me, the kids at these schools don't go to State U.
Money begets money-always has always will.
If kids want to go to schools dominated by the wealthy, so be it.
I just don't see the point of belittling kids or their families who choose to go to a college where a majority of the students are middle class.
I'm sure we have hundreds of posters here who can attest that a St. John's degree has fared them quite well.
To even be considering Stanford he has done well, congrats! (I'll be rooting against Stanford though, as i've never gotten along with any Cardinal Alumni or students.)
Nice that Hopkins is his safety school
Proud parent I'm sure.
thanks, trying to figure it all out. His "wish" is stanford, but 5.6% acceptance rate is a bit daunting.
beast of the east
Active member
That's totally missing the point, and in doing so, doing it through a myopic prism. When you admit so many underprivileged and underqualified students, you erode the academic integrity on which a university is based. A 40% 6 year graduation rate at a university where the total pricetag is $50,000 per year is atrocious. It effectively steers most potential legacy students away from St. John's to a university where the currency of a particular college degree is valued higher. Can any sane person argue that a kid from Duke or any Ivy going to get many more interviews that an kid from St. John's? Of course not. But continue the devaluation process by admitting large numbers of underperforming students for ANY reason (academic prowess or social circumstance preventing them from academic success), and job applicants from better schools will get job interviews and job offers first. And that impacts all st. John's graduates.
But much more than that is that by admitting students who have little chance at academic success for either or both of the aforementioned reasons, and the big financial loser is the disadvantaged student him/herself who will not graduate and be left with hefty student loans. Even if the Obama administration is successful in erasing defaulted student loan debt for these kids, they are left with ruined credit that will prevent them from buying houses, getting reasonable rate auto loans, etc. That's a travesty that cannot be erased by altruistic feelings such as yours, as admirable as they are.
I'm done with this subject as both sides have artfully expressed their opinions and there is no convincing the other side of rightness or wrongness. I respect you all, and respect your contribution to the discussion.
does st johns still have a st vincents or something like that ? Have a 2nd tier school on campus to admit lower score kids if they want to take the higher number of students and let them earn their way up to an upper tier elite academic class or graduate from the lower school
jerseyshorejohnny
Well-known member
I did just that. The final straw for me was seeing the appication come for me with no fee and no essay required. To me that makes us look like we are in that lower rung of schools. We need to climb the ladder. Look what Northeastern did in the last 17 years.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/08/e...sitys-profile-pricing-and-packaging.html?_r=0
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/08/e...sitys-profile-pricing-and-packaging.html?_r=0
Channeling Mel Brooks channeling "Treasure of the Sierra Madre", "we don't need no stinking ladder".
Let STJ be STJ, the school for the first family member to go to college, the higher education pioneers for wave upon wave of immigrant families. Our grads may not be the ones to get monetarily rich, but their kids might. Either way, in establishing their family's place in the innovation supportive culture that exists in the USA, they are keeping us all stronger and STJ is doing its part as the entryway.
beast of the east
Active member
That's not the point. I suspect they use this as a tool for SJU to game the system as well. I believe they report the average SAT of ACCEPTED students (as apposed to enrolled). So by reaching out to exceptional HS students who likely won't go there, and simplify the application process, make it free, and promise the potential of large scholarships, they are able to significantly boost their own numbers. Great HS students often like the idea of being offered large scholarships even to schools they won't go to, thereby the incentive to apply for free. Again, I'm sure other schools do this as well, so in that regard SJU may be in line with what Northeastern did in trying to game the system.