jrhoops1949
Active member
Who figured us where in 2011? Kentucky NIT one and done!!! If the kids want to get better, and listen good, we be fine.
2013-2014 Rankings
- Thread starter billyfa
- Start date
jrhoops1949
Active member
With u running programs Beilein and Crean both gone before this season starts, right Joe? Besides other things all Steve has been since he got here is rushed. No need to even mention being sick. I don't believe he's even started bringing in the type of players he will be down the line. Thing is he had to start somewhere. HOF coaches could not get started fast enough for you. Not talking nasty Joe, just get the idea you think everything happens fast and easy. And it might, unless your the guy gotta do it. I don't think anyone here has had a real reason to be putting Steve on a time line, but I see thats not gonna stop some of you. Funny part is we not Kentucky, UCLA, Michigan, Indy, or get ready, Minny. We don't draw what mid-majors get. Lets hope Steve stays, he might get us where some think we oughta be. Just not as fast.
Class of 72
Active member
Jrhoops, I am not defending Joe here since he, like most here, are in their golden years and as the old song says "time keeps on slipping into the future" and many are no longer willing to have the patience for 5-6 year plans.
This thread is about the 2013-14 team and its place among other programs. We might not be the first 10 teams mentioned on the list but we also are not paying $1 million + to be in the bottom 10 nationally.
The statistical predictors that the analysts use are there for all to look at......there are no secret formulae. Unlike Harvard, our players will be juniors and seniors who were nationally ranked 2 and 3 years ago. Like a college student in a classroom, their basketball grades are not impressive going into their 3rd year. That is what is hurting our pre-season ranking. This year we have also been penalized for what has been discussed here ad nauseum and agreed to by most of the mods that now claim we are bashing Lavin and that is that Steve's in-game coaching, use of players, time outs, offensive strategy, etc., etc. has been called into question. That too has hurt our ranking. It is not about bashing the coach or coaches but looking at results and expressing one's opinion of what it will take to be successful in a city like New York.
No one wants to see Lav fail and we all agree that with that "one" ship now he needs to make a recruiting statement.
In any elite program, you cannot have a year without a major recruit to keep fans hopes alive.
jrhoops1949
Active member
Plenty of good programs go a year without a major recruit. I'm 64 and root for one team. That don't mean it's going to come together any quicker then some think it should. There's a reason people use the word build in discussing a program.
Class of 72
Active member
Just a couple of comments.....I said "elite" which is what we expect. There are 50+ "good" programs. You cannot be just "good" in NYC. You can get away with being good in Cincy or Spokane or Memphis but not in NYC, Chicago, Boston, or L.A.
As for building a program, people have to STOP using coach K's record at Duke from his early years when it was a different college basketball world and there were no one-and-dones. Unfortunate as it may sound, you either fast track a program in 4 years or you dwell near the bottom in today's diluted competition.
Fine. No more coach K tell us who it is that Lavin should be compared to. Folks have brought up Crean (worse in his first three years at Indiana), Beilein (worse in his first three years at Michigan). Not sure there are a lot of other current coaches to compare him too whom you can wrongfully claim took their teams as far as your fantastical mind would imagine. Tell me the guys at MOR big time programs who took disasters to the promised land in 3 years.
Personally I think arguing over some guy we've never heard of's bracketology for 2014 at this point is inane. Guy doesn't know who Orlando Sanchez is and yet still has the team in the dance, if a bubble team. Then again who cares what he thinks. Let's at least wait until next Tuesday when Lunardi publishes his first 2014 brackets before we burn down Carnesecca Arena.
Personally I think arguing over some guy we've never heard of's bracketology for 2014 at this point is inane. Guy doesn't know who Orlando Sanchez is and yet still has the team in the dance, if a bubble team. Then again who cares what he thinks. Let's at least wait until next Tuesday when Lunardi publishes his first 2014 brackets before we burn down Carnesecca Arena.
I think that you would be hard pressed to find a major D1 program that had the kind of disappointing season we had that did not bring in a big time recruit after that. Basically because a tuned in AD would be all over his case, not to mention a few boosters and well informed alumni.
Class of 72
Active member
Of course it is inane but in the offseason going over future redmen dreamscapes is what will be going on here for a few months and you and everyone else will chime in because it is what we do.
I think many were (are) anticipating results in year 4 and not 3.
Lunardi and these bozos base their forecasts on some hard numbers and some floating variables. Unless you just want to be a Mary Contrary, there is no arguing our numbers suck. Of our variables, the players may be the most critical. Orlando Sanchez may or may not be a key variable. The further development of Jakarr Sampson is a critical variable. The rest of the players may or may not improve the team's success. Given the skill sets they have thus far displayed, that is in doubt and only new blood will change that perception.
As I stated in another thread losing one or two players after this less than successful season was to be expected. Rysheed Jordan and Jermaine Lawrence were both offered early and "both" would have been given ships at the expense of current players. That is to be expected in a program looking for a quick turnaround.
By "quick" I think 4 years is more than reasonable unless your fantastical mind has been conditioned to 6 years as was given to Norm Roberts.
terrificboss
Member
I agree with you.
However if it is not as good as all of us here think it should be, what time do we meet? :lol:
Maybe Lavin shouldn't be compared at all to arguably the greatest coach of all time. Like if your kid takes up the violin and he stinks the first three times he plays violin that's not a reason to compare him to Paganini, even if Paganini stunk at violin the first three times he played it too.
There's lots of coaches who were awful in their first three years and went on to be awful in their fourth. There's many coaches with sustained records of mediocrity. As you say, few programs go from laughingstock to national power, and Saint John's isn't Indiana or Michigan. I agree it's too early to panic. (It's not however too early to note the location of the lifeboats.) But using Schrewskrencki's early failure to support Lavin suggests that Lavin is on K's trajectory. That leaves out the important fact that Ratface is a genius and Lavin is not.
Here's a comparison
Coach A's first four
19-11
12-17
14-14
11-16
Coach B's first three years
21-12
13-19
16-14
Assume both went to the NCAA tournament with their predecessor's players. Assume both brought in vaunted recruiting classes. Assume neither demonstrated any particular strategic acumen in their first several years. Now assume coach A's name is Mahoney and Coach B's name is Lavin. Why is the comparison to Crean any more compelling than a comparison to Mahoney? I don't see how it is.
Let's also assume that Coach B sacrificed a few wins this year by suspending a key player to drive a point home with him that will hopefully make him and the team better going forward (or will lead to the player taking a lousy attitude somewhere else if he's unwilling to change). Let's also assume that Coach B didn't actually coach in year 2 while he took care of some more important things. When you boil all that down, he took one team to the tournament, sat out one year, and coached a team of sophomores and freshmen in his third year to a 16-14 record with his power forward in eligible, his starting pg playing 10 games healthy and his shooting guard having attitude issues. How does any of that possibly compare to Mahoney's situation and "success"? Concluding that Coach B should be fired or isn't worthy of more time or can't coach are all insane conclusions and ridiculous on any level of measurement. In Lavin I trust and I'm glad that some of the "experts" on this board who think they know better are not the ones coaching our team.
How many recruits should Lavin bring in when he has no scholarships to give? Garrett unexpectedly leaves and opens a scholarship, and the the kid they're in on is a top 30 prospect. What else do you want from them? 5 years ago the program was a afterthought. After Fraschilla they didn't bring in one top prospect until Lavin. Give it time. We're in a MUCH better place than we were in before he was hired.
The one area where he's failed is bringing in NYC kids. They really need to bring in a big time city kid.
The one area where he's failed is bringing in NYC kids. They really need to bring in a big time city kid.
Coach B also has a record of NCAA tournament success spanning over half decade, advancing several rounds in the tourney each year. Lavin has done it before and will do it again. If he's an idiot, he sure has been able to mask it considering his one losing season in his career. I don't think he has the acumen of Beilein or Carrill, but I also don't think he's the coach from Teen Wolf.
My point is that top NYC prospects don't consider coming to SJU in the same way as Syracuse or Louisville or Pittsburgh or Cincinnati or Uconn or............
Class of 72
Active member
Jnaw17 wrote:
"Concluding that Coach B should be fired or isn't worthy of more time or can't coach are all insane conclusions and ridiculous on any level of measurement. In Lavin I trust and I'm glad that some of the "experts" on this board who think they know better are not the ones coaching our team."
First of all 17, it appears that you are the one that "assume" those conclusions. Second, there are few coaches in the business I trust. Mahoney was one of the nicest people I have ever met, even nicer than Norm Roberts. While Brian and Rutledge were good recruiters Norm was not. Unfortunate that neither could coach an offense to save their lives.
That is where the similarity to Lavin comes in. Lavin, like Mahoney, has attracted a higher level recruit but their bench assistants, like Rutledge, downright suck. Forget coach Keady....he has zero input in games. The assistants have zero coaching experience. It shows during games and I am sure they are as useless in practices.
What some have drawn from a recruiting aspect is that we have signed too many players with poor shooting skills and BB IQ. That can be remedied in practices but it has not...thus far.
As for recruits, some do not realize how close we have come to NOT attracting and holding on to players even on a Brian Mahoney level.
The stellar first year recruits are all but gone----Polee, Lindsey, Garrett, Pelle....and maybe Harrison. Sampson had to be re-recruited and we lost Rico Gathers to the Baylor bench. Darrick Wood is now 20 years old and still trying to qualify.
Last year Obekpa was [this] close to signing with Cincy and Orlando was even closer with Providence. So much for "sure" recruits in your "In Lavin we trust" scenario. This year we basically targeted 2 players, Jordan and Lawrence, and neither signed on the dotted line. The 2014 targets are not program changers nor McDonald All-Americans.
That group was targeted by Lavin while he was in recovery and basically spent full time in the south and west coast laying foundations with future players. I am hoping those extra miles pay off and we do not come perilously close again to having a recruiting class of the likes of Bourgault, Balamou, Jones, Hooper or some other diamond in the rough.
"Concluding that Coach B should be fired or isn't worthy of more time or can't coach are all insane conclusions and ridiculous on any level of measurement. In Lavin I trust and I'm glad that some of the "experts" on this board who think they know better are not the ones coaching our team."
First of all 17, it appears that you are the one that "assume" those conclusions. Second, there are few coaches in the business I trust. Mahoney was one of the nicest people I have ever met, even nicer than Norm Roberts. While Brian and Rutledge were good recruiters Norm was not. Unfortunate that neither could coach an offense to save their lives.
That is where the similarity to Lavin comes in. Lavin, like Mahoney, has attracted a higher level recruit but their bench assistants, like Rutledge, downright suck. Forget coach Keady....he has zero input in games. The assistants have zero coaching experience. It shows during games and I am sure they are as useless in practices.
What some have drawn from a recruiting aspect is that we have signed too many players with poor shooting skills and BB IQ. That can be remedied in practices but it has not...thus far.
As for recruits, some do not realize how close we have come to NOT attracting and holding on to players even on a Brian Mahoney level.
The stellar first year recruits are all but gone----Polee, Lindsey, Garrett, Pelle....and maybe Harrison. Sampson had to be re-recruited and we lost Rico Gathers to the Baylor bench. Darrick Wood is now 20 years old and still trying to qualify.
Last year Obekpa was [this] close to signing with Cincy and Orlando was even closer with Providence. So much for "sure" recruits in your "In Lavin we trust" scenario. This year we basically targeted 2 players, Jordan and Lawrence, and neither signed on the dotted line. The 2014 targets are not program changers nor McDonald All-Americans.
That group was targeted by Lavin while he was in recovery and basically spent full time in the south and west coast laying foundations with future players. I am hoping those extra miles pay off and we do not come perilously close again to having a recruiting class of the likes of Bourgault, Balamou, Jones, Hooper or some other diamond in the rough.
Class of 72
Active member
WHY NOT?????
Class of 72
Active member
If you are referring to Maurice Harkless please be advised that Moe had verballed to Uconn and the prospect of him sitting on the bench for a year or two made his handler have him reconsider. He was not "targeted" by Lavin......it was the other way around! Our misfortune with eligibilty issues turned into his good fortune. Coach Lavin barely got to know him in practices. Moe was in the right place at the right time.....period!