There's a big difference recruiting for UCLA and even SJU when they make the tourney. Now we're two years removed from that and barely a .500 team. If Sheed comes, DLO comes back and Sanchez doesn'r disappoint we should dance again and hopefully be able to recruit again. Kids want to play in the post season and Lavin has to establish that level of performance to be successful. So far though the names don't seem to be up to that. We'll see what he's about in 2014. My feeling is that if next season pans out there will be someone new at the helm bitching about what he was left to work with and a bunch of guys here saying he needs five years to build his own team. That's the Saint John's saga. The story's always the same but the names are changed to protect the guilty.
2013-2014 Rankings
- Thread starter billyfa
- Start date
There's a big difference recruiting for UCLA and even SJU when they make the tourney. Now we're two years removed from that and barely a .500 team. If Sheed comes, DLO comes back and Sanchez doesn'r disappoint we should dance again and hopefully be able to recruit again. Kids want to play in the post season and Lavin has to establish that level of performance to be successful. So far though the names don't seem to be up to that. We'll see what he's about in 2014. My feeling is that if next season pans out there will be someone new at the helm bitching about what he was left to work with and a bunch of guys here saying he needs five years to build his own team. That's the Saint John's saga. The story's always the same but the names are changed to protect the guilty.
rawdognyc
Well-known member
So Moe wouldn't have gotten playing time right away at Rutgers or Seton Hall or numerous other schools that offered him and had built more of a relationship over time? Lavin gets no credit for coming in out of nowhere and grabbing him up along with numerous other top 100 recruits that probably never even heard of St. John's? You people here cease to amaze me on a daily basis.
westchesterjoe
Active member
Let me say this, I was as excited about Lavin coming here to Coach as a kid at Christmas. And, the first year, with Roberts players I thought we had caught lightning in a bottle. Then Lavin brought in what was largely regarded as the 2nd best recruiting class to Kentucky in the country. Here we come top 10!
Except it wasn't.. Pelle never came, Samspon did not qualify, Lindsay bolted after a semester. Garrett had to wait a semester to play, etc. Harkless left for the pros.
So, the heralded group did not really mean the 2nd best recruiting class.. Losing those guys probably knocked it down considerably.
I began to worry about Lavin during the first round NCAA game in 2011 when despite a good start to the game, Gonzaga mopped the floor with Hardy, Burrell, Brownlee, etc. True we lost DJ but, the point was that Mark Few ran circles around Steve during the game by making mid game changes. Steve essentially had no answer.
That Hardy led team scored some pretty big wins during the season and it was hard to fathom how badly prepared Lavin's Team was that game and, how puzzled Steve was on the sidelines. We saw a lot of that when Roberts was Coaching.
Some have mentioned Beilein and Crean and their first 3 years.. Crean had to purge IU of the stink from Sampson and the NCAA violations. But, he began the rebuilding process from ashes, Lavin did not get ashes .
Crean's body of work at Marquette was evidence enough he would rebuild and he began to bring in big time recruits like Zeller,Hulls, Olidapo, etc. Yes, it took a while but, Crean has a coaching style and strategies that you see in his team's performance. His recruiting got better every year, has ours?
Beilein is a near Genius in Coaching team performance. And, he had to overcome the decades old second fiddle to MICH st, that IZZO created. He began to get better recruits because players and parents began to see what he was building. Plus, he's won everywhere he's been.
With both these Coaches you could see, despite initial losing seasons that something was being built positively. Do we see that here in year 4, with a exodus of players?
Plus, can anyone say realistically that the way this team played this year was cause for optimism? Did the team play any better in March than it did in November? I don't think so.
Except it wasn't.. Pelle never came, Samspon did not qualify, Lindsay bolted after a semester. Garrett had to wait a semester to play, etc. Harkless left for the pros.
So, the heralded group did not really mean the 2nd best recruiting class.. Losing those guys probably knocked it down considerably.
I began to worry about Lavin during the first round NCAA game in 2011 when despite a good start to the game, Gonzaga mopped the floor with Hardy, Burrell, Brownlee, etc. True we lost DJ but, the point was that Mark Few ran circles around Steve during the game by making mid game changes. Steve essentially had no answer.
That Hardy led team scored some pretty big wins during the season and it was hard to fathom how badly prepared Lavin's Team was that game and, how puzzled Steve was on the sidelines. We saw a lot of that when Roberts was Coaching.
Some have mentioned Beilein and Crean and their first 3 years.. Crean had to purge IU of the stink from Sampson and the NCAA violations. But, he began the rebuilding process from ashes, Lavin did not get ashes .
Crean's body of work at Marquette was evidence enough he would rebuild and he began to bring in big time recruits like Zeller,Hulls, Olidapo, etc. Yes, it took a while but, Crean has a coaching style and strategies that you see in his team's performance. His recruiting got better every year, has ours?
Beilein is a near Genius in Coaching team performance. And, he had to overcome the decades old second fiddle to MICH st, that IZZO created. He began to get better recruits because players and parents began to see what he was building. Plus, he's won everywhere he's been.
With both these Coaches you could see, despite initial losing seasons that something was being built positively. Do we see that here in year 4, with a exodus of players?
Plus, can anyone say realistically that the way this team played this year was cause for optimism? Did the team play any better in March than it did in November? I don't think so.
I think things are looking good for us next year, providing Harrison returns. If we get Jorden things could be great. I will admit the verdict is still out on Lavins coaching ability which has looked suspect. I , like many think he should have gotten an XO guru to replace Dunlap. Dunlap is really missed. We have been playing w/o a PG. Branch played to few games healthy to impact this season, and the verdict is still out on him.
Class of 72
Active member
I think you know what I meant. Moe fell into our lap. Obekpa and Sanchez were not sure they were coming until the end of the signing period. The reference is that some here were beating their chests early on when they were assuming "if Lav goes after a player----he will get that player". As we can see, that has not been the case and we have lost as many players as we have signed. There are no sure bets in recruiting unless your name is Calipari and regardless of available scholarships, you need to scout until your shoes are worn off.
Realistically, I feel that if D-Lo doesn't get suspended Lavin wins 18 games this and gets a better seed in the NIT and maybe wins two games in the NIT. If Sanchez and Gift play Lavin probably wins 21 - 22 games are he has the team in NCAA Tournament. Mo leaving you can't do anything about. Last year Lavin was ill, again, nothing you can do. I think that things look very good for next year. Especially, if Lavin can land Jordan or Severe. I think the trip to Europe in the Summer with this team will be huge for their development. Lavin brought in two very good recruiting classes. This year he doesn't really have any ships to give. I agree that next year is huge but I think Lavin comes through and barring any major negative developments, injuries etc., I think Lavin has this team in the top 15 next year. Especially if Hooper is the real deal also.
Class of 72
Active member
Everyone here lives in a world of "what ifs". By speculating about players in that "what if" world, we sometimes get lucky, as with Moe and sometimes do not as with Gathers. They are examples of what if..... Of course Lav gets credit for closing the deal with Nate Blue faster than Pastner at Memphis. Lucky for Moe he was not abused at Rutgers or maybe his confidence and NBA dream would have been shattered.
As has been pointed out a million times, Lavin was hired to do what you stated above....to sign top 100 kids. His first year he did that.....to an extent.
Coming off of two very forgettable seasons only leads fans to speculate even more with "what if" and from reading many of your thoughts about next year and beyond, my conclusion is that many of you have more "what if" questions than a positive fan base should have if they intend on being one of the top dogs in the Big East.
We have been very lucky in many ways....signing some good players, Lavin returning to good health and a chance at a new beginning in a new Big East.
What has transpired on the court this year however is what raises doubts and the natives get restless when there are doubts.
Three years ago Lav got players from all over the map to committ. The job just got harder.
Class of 72
Active member
A little dense are we??
I referenced your comments and you loyally proclaimed "in Lavin I Trust". To make simpler for your young developing mind.....I do not trust most coaches. Assuming your cognitive abilities missed the "point", recruits in the cataegory of Bourgault, Balamou, Jones, Hooper, and yes, even Phil Greene and Jamal Branch do not excite me and I do not "trust" they will lead us to the promised land.
In short, the jury is still out and all many fans have concluded about Lavin for year 4 is that he needs to show dramatic results next year to distance himself from being compared to Norm Roberts or Brian Mahoney as opposed to coach K or Rick Pitino.
I know for a fact that Moe was targeted by Lavin after he attended the top prospect camp at St. Johns alomg with Jakarr in2010 prior to his senior year in high school. Moe had already decommitted from UCONN, not because he was worried about sitting behind anyone there but because his family wanted him on the east coast and Coaches Lavin, Hines, and Chiles followed him throughout the summer from Vegas to Arizona where he led his AAU team, the NY Panthers to the Championship.
I am really amazed at how people get on this board and post totally inaccurate information and want it to be accepted as fact. The part about him sitting came from Calhoun who was disappointed about losing Moe and put out the that Moe was not as good as Coombs-McDaniel. Which one is in the NBA????
Next time do some research before posting total BS !!!!!
Pray4change
Member
That's about where we are 45th. If things fall well we could be top 30, and if things don't we'll be top 60. Should have shot making ncaa tourney and maybe shot at winning 1 game. If you have been watching the NCAA's you can compare our team to those and come to a realization where our team sits.
It is what it is. Decent team.. Not top echelon.
It is what it is. Decent team.. Not top echelon.
Class of 72
Active member
I guess your definition of a recruiting target is very broad.
Harkless was Uconn property when Lavin was hired. He did not recruit him in the traditional sense. When he decommitted from Uconn at the end of June, 2010, a dozen schools made offers within days, including St. John's--- before he ever attended any camp! Moe had been to SJ many times prior, even during the Roberts era. He was sold on Uconn until Nate Blue realized Moe was going to compete for playing time that not only included Coombs but Roscoe Smith and then suddenly Niels Giffy.......all small forwards! There would be no one ahead of him at St. John's but Memphis came very close from what I recall.
The irony is that while Lavin was lucky to have every position open to offer and Moe eventually signed with SJ, Steve never got a chance to coach him.
As far as his family wanting him on the "east coast" your level of B.S. has set new stupidity standards here! Uconn and Stools, CT are on the east coast so why would he have decommitted??? The possibility of sanctions was mentioned but no decision had been made yet by the NCAA. East coast theory? Buy a map skippy!
Nate Blue? CHECK!
Don't come on here and try to BS a BS artist!
Class of 72
Active member
Class of 72
Active member
LIPanther fan wrote:
"You keep regurgitating Calhoun's BS about playing time. Moe is in the NBA where are Smith, Giffey, and Coombs-McDaniel? Maybe that is why Calhoun ain't coaching anymore, he liked Smith and Giffey over Moe.
Why you have such a hard time giving the staff credit for recruiting Moe is beyond me. Lavin and staff have brought in top rated players, have they all become superstars, no but a lot of schools would like to have our roster going into next year."
OK, I guess your reading comprehension is not what I expect but I am pretty sure I gave Lav credit for closing the deal when Moe became a free agent. Your fabrication of timelines is comical and you seem hung up on trying to prove Moe left Uconn on some mysterious whim supplementing it with moronic comments such as:
His family wanted him on the east coast.
His handler was afraid of losing control over him.
Lavin, in all his wisdom, discovered him in camp.
Calhoun "ain't" coaching anymore because he lost Moe because he loved other players that had not played a minute for him more. Etc.
Calhoun retired because he was emotionally and physically spent. Forget that he had little issues like heart disease, prostate cancer, broken bones, nervous breakdowns (obviously due to losing Moe Harkless). But before he left, he won another national championship with the players that "may" have influenced Moe to decommit. I say a win-win for both programs.
Since that Uconn national championship both programs have hit rough spots along the road. Uconn with probation and being left behind by the Big East's other signature programs and Saint John's by more turnover than a McDonalds hamburger franchise.
For all the defense of why Moe Harkless left Uconn the bottom line is he also left Saint John's. You can give credit to Lavin for that but all I am trying to get into your Capa Tosta is that it was all happenstance....from Moe being available when he was to his forced playing minutes that showcased him for the NBA.
For 2013-14, Garrett joins 9 others that have either left our program, not qualified or decommitted. I do not think we are finished yet with the player moves.
Does that sound like a recipe for long term success? It is debatable.
We now have the elusive scholarship available. I want to give Lavin credit for pulling another elite player out of his culo.
I hope to hear some good news from you about that soon.
Oh, and by the way-----may the mods be with you!
"You keep regurgitating Calhoun's BS about playing time. Moe is in the NBA where are Smith, Giffey, and Coombs-McDaniel? Maybe that is why Calhoun ain't coaching anymore, he liked Smith and Giffey over Moe.
Why you have such a hard time giving the staff credit for recruiting Moe is beyond me. Lavin and staff have brought in top rated players, have they all become superstars, no but a lot of schools would like to have our roster going into next year."
OK, I guess your reading comprehension is not what I expect but I am pretty sure I gave Lav credit for closing the deal when Moe became a free agent. Your fabrication of timelines is comical and you seem hung up on trying to prove Moe left Uconn on some mysterious whim supplementing it with moronic comments such as:
His family wanted him on the east coast.
His handler was afraid of losing control over him.
Lavin, in all his wisdom, discovered him in camp.
Calhoun "ain't" coaching anymore because he lost Moe because he loved other players that had not played a minute for him more. Etc.
Calhoun retired because he was emotionally and physically spent. Forget that he had little issues like heart disease, prostate cancer, broken bones, nervous breakdowns (obviously due to losing Moe Harkless). But before he left, he won another national championship with the players that "may" have influenced Moe to decommit. I say a win-win for both programs.
Since that Uconn national championship both programs have hit rough spots along the road. Uconn with probation and being left behind by the Big East's other signature programs and Saint John's by more turnover than a McDonalds hamburger franchise.
For all the defense of why Moe Harkless left Uconn the bottom line is he also left Saint John's. You can give credit to Lavin for that but all I am trying to get into your Capa Tosta is that it was all happenstance....from Moe being available when he was to his forced playing minutes that showcased him for the NBA.
For 2013-14, Garrett joins 9 others that have either left our program, not qualified or decommitted. I do not think we are finished yet with the player moves.
Does that sound like a recipe for long term success? It is debatable.
We now have the elusive scholarship available. I want to give Lavin credit for pulling another elite player out of his culo.
I hope to hear some good news from you about that soon.
Oh, and by the way-----may the mods be with you!