2012 U.S. News Rankings - St. John's # 152

 The truth of the matter is that very bright high school students ..... do not want to attend a college made up of close to 40% minority students with whom they have very little in common except hip-hop music.
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Class of '72:

Your suggestion that race is a defense to St. John's mediocre undergrad academic recognition is not correct.

Below is a list of only some of the colleges that have substantial undergrad minority enrollments and which rank ahead of St.John's in the US News rankings including the below listed schools. (Note the percentage indicated the percent of students in the frosh 2010 class that were classified as "white".).

U Illinois- Chicago... 37%
South Carolina State University... 1%
U Texas- Dallas... 43%
Rutgers- Newark... 29%
New York Poly ... 32%
New Jersey Tech... 25%
Stony Brook ... 37%
University of the Pacific ... 38%
UC Riverside ... 13%
Binghamton ... 51%
UC Santa Cruz ... 39%
rutgers ... 46%
UC Irvine ... 20%
UC Santa Barbara ... 44%
UMiami ... 52%
San Diego ... 23%
New York University ... 44%
UCLA ... 25%
USC ... 41%
Cal ... 28%
Emory ... 38%
Rice ... 40%
UPenn ... 49%
UChicago ... 49%
Stanford ... 32%
Cal Tech ... 33%
Princeton ... 50%
Yale ... 49%
Harvard ... 44%
Cornell ... 46%
Brown ... 44%
Columbia University ... 33%

There is no way to spin the facts that (i) St. John's has a disturbing high attrition rate (nearly one of four students that enroll as a frosh quits or transfers- 22%), (ii) those that do graduate incur a heavy debt load (average debt $32,886), and (iii) the school that has a mediocre academic reputation (#152 National University).

The school's alums should demand that Rev. Donald J. Harrington, C.M. remedy these deficiencies much like they demanded that he right the men's basketball program.
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OTIS, I respect you as a Redmen fan HOWEVER I am starting to think you are actually a SJ hater:(.

Presenting misleading stats does not serve you well in this discussion. I almost took your retort seriously until I saw South Carolina State on your list as a school you say are ranked higher than SJ yet 99% of the students are African American! LMAO!!
Let's get some of your stats straigt here! You have a bunch of Ivies on your list as having a high % of minorities as well as Cal Berkley and some other "engineering" schools. Yet, you fail to mention that the so-called minorities in the schools you list are ASIAN!! Now I think you know you can fool some of the Redmen fans here but some of us actually were involved with education and know better! When I made reference to certain high achieving white students that exclude SJ it was not because too many ASIANS were attending SJ!! Not ONE school on your list has a higher % of African-American and Hispanic (non-Mexican) population than SJ----NONE!
As far as the US News rankings I personally think they have compromised their credibility with the 2012 rankings and rendered any school ranked after the top 50 as almost equals. Nonsense!!! I am very familiar with NYU-PolyTech as a close friend was a dean there. Do you really think that Rensselear in Troy NY is really 60 places higher in ranking when it comes to producing engineers??? Another friend taught at Miami in Coral Gables. the school is full of rich white and Cuban White kids riding BMW's to school! At one time, before the bullshit US. News rankings, St. Johns's was actually considered a better school.
To reiterate, St. John's can easily emulate Fordham and Villanova. All it has to do is not accept low-income black and Hispanic students with lower SATs. Fifty years ago some of you were white Irish or Italian kids from low-income immigrant families but SJ gave you an opportunity Some dropped out but some, like former Gov Mario Cuomo whose parents had a little grocery store, became very influential grads. 

BTW OTIS, you failed to mention that THREE Big East FOOTBALL schools (your favorite topic) are all ranked BELOW SJ! Way to Go Louisville, West Virginia and USF!!!
 
Like him politically or not, Mario Cuomo was one of the smartest fellows ever to graduate from St. John's and St. John's Law School.

And he didn't leave St. John's with a mountain of debt since he was on on scholarship.

Let's not also forget he was a very good baseball player who had "a cup of coffee" with the Pittsburgh Pirates. 
 
The world is composed of a bottom half and a top half of the class, in education, in native intelligence, in wealth, common sense , and in physical ability. StJ fills a vitally important role in providing an opportunity, a viable path,and a measure of hope for some of those  that feel they could try to be able to break out of that lower half.
Five kids, two immigrant parents, a 5th floor tenement in 'Fort Apache The Bronx', a gross income of under $100 per week, and, no career councellors at Cardinal Hayes High School(at the time) does not predict a quality future. I am intimately familar with that family, five of whom went to very affordable colleges which didn't seem at all affordable at the time and all of them probably ranked lower than 150, a ranking that which really isn't bad, Two of us went to StJ; thank God!
It would be enormously revealing to anyone following this thread to go to the St.Johns home page and read the Mission Statement which has been in place, in that substantial form, for closing in on 150 years.
Yes, we can easily improve our "ranking" according to US News and World Report by lopping off the bottom third of the freshman class. That's an easy way out of a commitment. What then does anyone do for those 5 kids from the South Bronx and what do we change the mission statement to?
Further, with the 3000 student freshmen class whittled to 2000, who will pay the freight for the Juniors and Seniors who are nearing their dream and who have been supported, 95% of them, by grants in aid. We are who we are and there is nothing bad about that. In fact, there is a lot of positives to be linked to our name.
 
George Deukmejian Governor of California also a SJU alum.

At one time, the sitting governors of the two most populous states (CA and NY), were educated at alma mater.

For what it is worth here is my two cents.

Lots of really smart kids might go to St. John's for a whole variety of reasons: no counseling at home or high school, parents didn't go to college, lack of direction, wanting to stay in the borough or close to home, financial and relative bargain tuition (back in the day at least) and/or academic scholarship.

These kids might have gotten into a much better school and might have even gotten into an Ivy or been at the top of their class at a very good school. But they choose St. John's for whatever reason. Many have excelled there and gone on to great heights. We can certainly be proud of their achievements, Many of our largest business firms are filled with high level talent that went to St. John's, you'd almost be surprised. It is a large enough school that if a student wants to get a quality education they certainly get a chance to do so.
 
 Brooklyn Redmen- -

I respect your loyalty to our beloved St. John's however your reliance upon Governors Deukmejian and Carey as measures of the academics at present day St. John's is wishful thinking at best.

Deukmejian graduated From St. John's some sixty years ago. Carey graduated from St. John's Undergraduate 70 years ago.

Much has changed in the 70 years since Hugh Carey graced the St. John's campus as an undergrad - - like the development of the CUNY and SUNY systems which offer the children of the poor quality education without the $40k +/- average debt the St. John's undergrad leaves with.

The academic profile of incoming undergraduate students and you will find that the school attracts students with mediocre academic credentials from low income students that upon graduation are saddled with massive debt needed to churn the cash registers at St. John's.
 
 Brooklyn Redmen- -

I respect your loyalty to our beloved St. John's however your reliance upon Governors Deukmejian and Carey as measures of the academics at present day St. John's is wishful thinking at best.

Deukmejian graduated From St. John's some sixty years ago. Carey graduated from St. John's Undergraduate 70 years ago.

Much has changed in the 70 years since Hugh Carey graced the St. John's campus as an undergrad - - like the development of the CUNY and SUNY systems which offer the children of the poor quality education without the $40k +/- average debt the St. John's undergrad leaves with.

The academic profile of incoming undergraduate students and you will find that the school attracts students with mediocre academic credentials from low income students that upon graduation are saddled with massive debt needed to churn the cash registers at St. John's.
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OTIS, I am not sure where you get your information regarding SJ but you are a wee bit off when you say "the academic profile of incoming undergraduate students and you will find that the school attracts students with mediocre academic credentials from low income students". SJ is unique in NYC in that it attracts students from a very broad economic and social strata as opposed to Vanillanova (95% of students are non-African American) that targets white Catholic kids from the suburbs and artificially boosts its academic ranking by excluding almost every Philadelphia minority high school student that end up at Philly's real football school, Temple. Here are some numbers for you to digest: SJ admitted 3,800 freshman last year while Villanova admitted 1,800. At St. John's over 30% of those freshmen had GPA's of 3.75 or above. That is circa 1,000 freshmen with GPA's over 3.75. At Nova, 61% had GPA's over 3.75. That is around 1,100 freshman with a GPA of over 3.75. St. John's best and brightest students can go head-to-head with any Villanova freshman in sheer numbers alone. There is not much difference in the quality of the professors. The average indebtedness of a Villanova student is about the same as that of a SJ student upon graduation.
Now, here is where the two schools vary greatly: Villanova uses a very high SAT profile for its admissions while SJ uses an average score. Minority (Black and Hispanic) students tend to score close to 100-150 points lower than their white and Asian counterparts in Math & English. It is only the bottom third of all admitted freshmen at Nova and SJ that sets the two schools apart. That contrasts sharply with your quoted comment above that implies that "most" of SJ's 3,800 freshmen came from some low-income (codeword for Black and Hispanic) social group when in fact many of the African American students now attending SJ come firmly from the middle class.
As far as debt and employment upon graduation I know of two siblings (brothers) who were one year apart. One went to Villanova on a partial scholarship and the other went to SJ on a full ride. The one that went to Nova had debt and it took close to one year to find a decent job in Manhattan while his brother interned and had a job upon graduation from SJ and no dept. As for CUNY there are maybe four 4 year schools worth attending that have exactly the same admissions profile as SJ but most high school students with GPA's below 3.0 get farmed out to the vastly inferior community colleges of the CUNY system. As for SUNY, there are only three 4 year schools worth attending and students have to live in great economic centers like Plattsburg, Pottsdam, Albany, Stony Brook, Binghampton, etc. 
 
 Hello Class of 1972,

Don't know whe you got your numbers from but according to the latest USNWR, 32% of St. John's students had high school GPA's of 3.5 or higher, NOT 3.75 and better.

That said, we have mentioned in the past that the biggest difference between schools like Nova and St. John's is the bottom third of students at St. John's.

According to Jim Pellow's book, Transformational Leadership, the best students at St. John's are those who are residents. The weakest academic profiles come from those at the Staten Island campus, according to Pellow's book.

If St. John's did away with most of the programs in the College of Professional Studies, you would see a dramatic
rise in our school's academic reputation.  

Personally, I think it is nuts for someone to go into 20K or 30K in debt for a St. John's education in the year 2011. The only exception to this statement might be for programs in the College of Pharmacy and Allied Health Professions, and those majoring in Accounting, Math, Chemistry, Physics, Biology, and Computer Science.
 
 If St. John's wants to admit kids who have poor academic records that is OK with me.

What isn't OK with me is to allow them to graduate with not only with a good amount of student loan debt, but with an academic skill set that doesn't help them to compete in the proverbial real world.

If these kids have remedial reading, writing and math skill sets when they enter St. John's they should be enrolled in as many classes as it takes to bring them up to speed.

Instead of enrolling in cupcake courses these kid's should go through an academic bootcamp so that when they do graduate they can handle their own when they come up against kids from Fordham, Providence, and Nova.
 
 Hello Class of 1972,

Don't know whe you got your numbers from but according to the latest USNWR, 32% of St. John's students had high school GPA's of 3.5 or higher, NOT 3.75 and better.

That said, we have mentioned in the past that the biggest difference between schools like Nova and St. John's is the bottom third of students at St. John's.

According to Jim Pellow's book, Transformational Leadership, the best students at St. John's are those who are residents. The weakest academic profiles come from those at the Staten Island campus, according to Pellow's book.

If St. John's did away with most of the programs in the College of Professional Studies, you would see a dramatic
rise in our school's academic reputation.  

Personally, I think it is nuts for someone to go into 20K or 30K in debt for a St. John's education in the year 2011. The only exception to this statement might be for programs in the College of Pharmacy and Allied Health Professions, and those majoring in Accounting, Math, Chemistry, Physics, Biology, and Computer Science.
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Hello Jersey Shore!
I just hope I am not conversing with Snookie here! LOL!
But seriously, I must have had an "OTIS" moment in comparing the wrong GPA's but the similarity in numbers remains VERY close even when using the 3.5 GPA as the benchmark. Remember, I am talking actual numbers of students sharing the same GPA criterion. Villanova's freshman class, because of its higher SAT threshold had around 1,495 total students who were admitted out of the 1,800 with a GPA of 3.5. St. John's had 1,330 students out of 3,800 admitted with a GPA of 3.5 or higher. That is around a 160 student difference. Most of SJ's most successful graduates who will on to graduate schools, Law schools, etc. come from that group. In sheer numbers St. John's has as many bright students as Villanova, which was my point. That said, the mission of the two schools differ as to giving minorities opportunities given their disadvantages when coming from a metropolis like NYC. Lower SAT scores is one of the differences but SJ gives those disadvantaged high school students a chance to better themselves in a university setting when in other places those students are relegated to junior colleges. More than half of those students will not graduate in 4 years and some do not graduate at all but therein lies both the risk and opportunity. Many would love to see over 2,500 freshmen with 3.5 or better HS GPA's but some would rather risk that even 500 of the 3,800 admitted go on the eventually graduate than lose those students to inferior educationlal settings like a Bronx Community College. As far as targeting your supposed Alma Mater for the debt vs quality of education issue you should include all colleges in your assessment then that admit high schoolers with below 3.0 GPA's and who pay over $40,000 tuition and also have that same debt. There are families that send their kids away to schools like Bridgeport, LIU, CW Post, Dowling, Seton Hall, St. Francis, Pace, Iona, just to name some local schools that admit the same students with below 3.5 GPA's as St. John's, your Alma Mater!! Is your opinion that all those colleges are just fleecing their students and graduating them to debt and their education is not worth the effort as you deem those students at SJ with that profile? Just curious. 
BTW, I do not use or trust the US News data. I use college data.com.
 
Hello 1972!

To answer your statement about "my supposed alma mater". Yes, I am an alumnus, St. John's College Class of 1975 and at the risk of being self serving I probably contribute more to my alma mater than the overwhelming majority of graduates and I'm happy to do it. So I do care about the university.

Also Snooki resides in SeaSide Heights, about a half hour from where I live on The Jersey Shore. Thank God !!!!!

That said, and all kidding aside, I have a difficult time making the case for just about all the aforementioned schools that you cited. I don't think they are worth the money. You and/or others may and that's fine.

I cannot figure out why anyone who lives in NJ would go to Seton Hall, or Monmouth or Rider, or fill in the blank (with the exception of Princeton) when they could go to Rutgers and pay less than $15K a yr. in tuition.

People can do whatever they want with their own money, but it is my opinion, that in most cases it is not money well spent (certainly at the undergrad level).

About a third of the kids enrolled at St. John's come from familes with an annual AGI of below $50K. If you think it is good for these kids to anchor themselves with $20K or $30K in student loans for a degree in Communications, or Athletic Administartion, or Criminal Justice, so be it. We can agree to disagree.

As I mentioned in a very, very recent post, I have no problem with St. John's admitting kids with weak academic profiles. What gets my goat is that they (St. John's) seemingly do not exert a great deal of effort helping them gain the necessary skill sets to compete with kids from Nova, or Providence or Fordham, to name a few.

While many of these kids are not up to speed as it pertains to their math, reading, and/or writing grade levels when they matriculate at St. John's, they should be up to speed at time they graduate.

I have a friend, a St. John's alumnus, who is a CFO at a Fortune 500 firm who has taken the time to work with St. John's seniors on their resumes and interviewing skills and he has told me on more than one occasion how ill prepared most of these kids are for the real world .

I believe it is the university's responsibility to see to it that these kids (who need it the most) receive a rigorous education that will prepare them for life after St. John's and not some Mickey Mouse course of study.

The university needs to encourage and support a competitive and intellectually curious academic enviornment, particularly for the kids who need the extra support the most.

If St. John's really wants to help these kids succeed, then help them by demanding a higher level of commitment and raise their level of expectation.

Make sure that they graduate with the skills necessary so that they have the tools necessary to compete and succeed.

If you believe that is being done, that's great. However, from everything I see and hear, it is not.

PS - As a favor, could you break up the paragraphs in your posts. They are a tad difficult to read in current form. Thanks.
 
 Jersey Shore Johnny wrote:
"If St. John's really wants to help these kids succeed, then help them by demanding a higher level of commitment and raise their level of expectation.

Make sure that they graduate with the skills necessary so that they have the tools necessary to compete and succeed.

If you believe that is being done, that's great. However, from everything I see and hear, it is not.

PS - As a favor, could you break up the paragraphs in your posts. They are a tad difficult to read in current form. Thanks."


Not all kids that attend college are there to become doctors, attorneys, investment bankers and generous St. John's benefactors. There are many benign occupations that now require some college but lead to very productive and pension-satisfying lives. SJ has a high number of alums and former students that become firefighters, law enforcement agents and other non-ivy jobs. Some of those choices come from the simple reason that they are first generation college students in their families (as has always been the case at SJ) and their aspiration levels are different. Yes, at $15,000 Rutgers New Brunswick is a bargain but Rutgers Newark, not so much. Why attend SH, Monmouth, FDU, Rider, Wagner, etc. ? Because New Jersey State College cannot support the instruction of 16,000 freshmen is my guess.
As far as breaking up sentences I will when Time Magazine does! But using two thumbs on a mobile is enough of challenge for me. 

BTW, if the print media said what you just wrote in 15 sentences there would be 15 million fewer trees on the planet! LOL!
 
 If someone wants to be part of the admirable tradition of the NYPD or The NYC Fire Dept., there is no need to saddle oneself with sizeable student loan debt.

Wouldn't it make more sense to go to John Jay if one wanted to become part of New York's Finest, for example ?

I remember a few guys who were in my class who became firemen but they went to St. john's on the G.I. Bill after having served in Vietnam.
 
The current discussion on efficiency (cost per unit of outcome) as a measure of the value of a St. John's education seems to me to miss the point. Go back to the Vincentian mission and ask about the input (the students); how many students are the first in their family to go to college? For how many of them is their role as family educational pioneers facilitated by symbols of their faith making their step in to college life seem less unfamiliar? For how many is the accessability of campus and even the symbol of the basketball team as something family members can support, an asset in what is a difficult transition? My doctoral work in education was at STJ and while there I was introduced to the book Realms of Meaning by Phillip Phenix. It has stayed with me (for more than 35 years) as a way to step back and look at multiple value sources when deciding whether something is "worth it".

Also, even longer ago I had a discussion about affirmative action with a friend who was a militant Afro-American community organizer and leader. We agreed that for some folks the leg up given by preferential hiring was in fact teaching a second message that they (who had received the preferential treatment) could not compete. He noted that the trade-off around this issue was that for the next generation, the role the person had obtained with a "raced-based boost" would seem entirely within the realm of the possible and the boost would not be remembered. I suspect that similar intergenerational effects devolve from many people who obtain their degrees at St. John's.
 
 If someone wants to be part of the admirable tradition of the NYPD or The NYC Fire Dept., there is no need to saddle oneself with sizeable student loan debt.

Wouldn't it make more sense to go to John Jay if one wanted to become part of New York's Finest, for example ?

I remember a few guys who were in my class who became firemen but they went to St. john's on the G.I. Bill after having served in Vietnam.
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If you are truly fixated soley on student loan debt and think only Princeton (for the wealthy) and New Jersey State (for the rest of the snooks) are the only college options then most colleges in Jersey should go out of business.

People make choices in life that are not always the most appealing or logical if looked at from a closed prism. Some men marry fat women, some prefer skinny. Most marry someone in between. Some 19 year olds take on $20,000 in college debt every year because they prefer a particular educational environment while some chose to go to Nassau Community College but decide they need a $50,000 BMW to commute there. They decide the $40,000 debt is worth it for them, even though there will a zero return on that investment.

The nations brightest and wealthiest will always attend Ivy League schools and their State couterparts in schools like Berkley, Wisconsin, UNC, etc. However, the majority will have to attend colleges in the 75-150 rankings range to compete in most of the service-driven industries that now dominate America. We are not a production-driven society any longer. We shipped our production jobs to China and Mexico years ago and they are not coming back. Assumng debt as part of that process is a necessity for most of the middle class.

Your option of doing away with most private colleges because of their tuition costs and not being ranked in the top 75 in America is quite a socialist proposal. Create State funded colleges in place of the defunct private schools and charge students $15,000 instead of $40,000. Sounds great for the student until you factor in the real costs. Those State schools are funded from taxes and that $25,000 difference is paid by you and me. So, to fund all those additional public schools, increase our taxes, even if we do not send our kids there and create 50 medicore community colleges in the place of the private colleges. Except for a handfull of States like California, most public colleges are lacking in quality, social settings to develop young minds and they all still charge tuition whose cost balance is paid by taxpayers. There is no free ride anywhere for most folks.
 
 Hello 72,

Before reacting to my posts you may want to read them first.

As I have EXPLICITLY said many times (most recently yesterday) "people can do what they want with their own hard earned money"

I wouldn't recommend it but heck if someone wants to do it, it's on them. I think if one does want to go to C.W. Post or Rider or whatever private school (for whatever reason) they may want to consider a community college first for the initial 2 years.

Second, I NEVER stated (or implied, for that matter) that we should do away with most private colleges as you cited. I just never want to hear somebody complain that they are X number of dollars in student loan debt and they can't find a job. No one forced then to go into debt or major in something where the employment options are non existent.

Again, to re-echo a previous comment: If these kids are going to go into debt, the university has a responsibility to provide them with a rigorous education and not let them slide through with a bunch of Mickey Mouse courses. They should make certain that their math, reading and writing skills are worthy of consideration in the marketplace once they graduate. St. John's should set the bar high and do everything they can to help these students who do not come equipped with strong academic skill sets when they arrive on campus. These kids should be challenged and encouraged to become intellectually curious. Now that would be be impressive.

Let me share 2 examples with you that are true and yet, as I'm sure you would agree, are beyond belief.

In the first instance I remember reading the Asbury Park Prees, the local Shore paper, and on the front page one Sunday was a story about a father complaining that his son had accumulated a significant amount of student loan debt from Monmout U. and couldn't find a job. Wow !! Was it a surprise that the debt came due ?? Did the father expect him to land a job at Goldman or J.P. Morgan paying $100,000 a year?? Perhaps they should have had a conversation BEFORE he matriculated at MU. Just a thought.

The second example, also true, involves a relative of my niece's husband. Seems that the kid went to a private school and accumulated $100K (not $10K, BUT $100K) in student loan debt and somehow he and his parents were shocked when the loan was due and he had a "mortgage" payment to pay every month.

If someone (from a family with an AGI of below $50K, which comprises about a third of all St. John's undergrads) wants to go $50K into debt (your BMW) for a St. John's education, be my guest. They are free to do so and God Bless them !  
 
 Hello 72,

Before reacting to my posts you may want to read them first.

As I have EXPLICITLY said many times (most recently yesterday) "people can do what they want with their own hard earned money"

I wouldn't recommend it but heck if someone wants to do it, it's on them. I think if one does want to go to C.W. Post or Rider or whatever private school (for whatever reason) they may want to consider a community college first for the initial 2 years.

Second, I NEVER stated (or implied, for that matter) that we should do away with most private colleges as you cited. I just never want to hear somebody complain that they are X number of dollars in student loan debt and they can't find a job. No one forced then to go into debt or major in something where the employment options are non existent.

Again, to re-echo a previous comment: If these kids are going to go into debt, the university has a responsibility to provide them with a rigorous education and not let them slide through with a bunch of Mickey Mouse courses. They should make certain that their math, reading and writing skills are worthy of consideration in the marketplace once they graduate. St. John's should set the bar high and do everything they can to help these students who do not come equipped with strong academic skill sets when they arrive on campus. These kids should be challenged and encouraged to become intellectually curious. Now that would be be impressive.

Let me share 2 examples with you that are true and yet, as I'm sure you would agree, are beyond belief.

In the first instance I remember reading the Asbury Park Prees, the local Shore paper, and on the front page one Sunday was a story about a father complaining that his son had accumulated a significant amount of student loan debt from Monmout U. and couldn't find a job. Wow !! Was it a surprise that the debt came due ?? Did the father expect him to land a job at Goldman or J.P. Morgan paying $100,000 a year?? Perhaps they should have had a conversation BEFORE he matriculated at MU. Just a thought.

The second example, also true, involves a relative of my niece's husband. Seems that the kid went to a private school and accumulated $100K (not $10K, BUT $100K) in student loan debt and somehow he and his parents were shocked when the loan was due and he had a "mortgage" payment to pay every month.

If someone (from a family with an AGI of below $50K, which comprises about a third of all St. John's undergrads) wants to go $50K into debt (your BMW) for a St. John's education, be my guest. They are free to do so and God Bless them !  
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!  [/quote] 

MY problem is that I am one of the few on this BASKETBALL forum that reads yours and OTIS's views on how God awful a St. John's education has or is becoming! Put your posts on the "other" community discussion board on this site in the future when it does not pertain to our team. As far as your implications You should re-read your comments! Here is an example:
"
I cannot figure out why anyone who lives in NJ would go to Seton Hall, or Monmouth or Rider, or fill in the blank (with the exception of Princeton) when they could go to Rutgers and pay less than $15K a yr. in tuition. "

Heck, maybe I am reading too much into your double talk but that sure sounds like it is either Princeton or a State institution to me! You see, I did fill in the blanks with other private colleges but you keep coming back to Rutgers, John Jay, Oneonta Community College and (fill in the blanks) because you are of the opinion that it is not worth going into a college loan debt.......but maybe it is ok to finance your kids desire for a BMW, Lexus or any other luxury car before he lands a job!
Peace brother!
 
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