@Xavier, Wed., Jan. 31, 6:30p, FS-1

[Marillac2]

You act like Jenkins doesn’t pass yet he averages 5.5 assists. And maybe the other players aren’t getting shots because they can’t; who else on the team can create a shot? You act like no one else on the team touches the ball, which is nonsense. Jenkins averages .42 shots per minute played, Dingle .38, Luis .47, Soriano .34, Alleyne .33, Ledlum .30; he has 117 assists, the next highest Johnnie is Ledlum with 35. Jenkins averages .18 assists per minute, Wilcher is next at .12, Alleyne, Dingle, Ledlum and Luis, all at or below .06. Add in the fact that Jenkins is the ONLY player on the team that can create a good shot on his own and IMO, the idea that he is some kind of out of control gunner is just ridiculous.

Nobody acts like Jenkins doesn’t pass. He literally leads the team in everything on offense: dribbling, passing, shooting. He’s not good enough to do that.

Many of us contend that we’d be better off if he didn’t try to be some savior. We don’t need that. It’s not like we would fall apart if he broke his ankle.

E.g., Alleyne has an awful handle and I think we would be a better team if he played the 1 for us. He can’t do half the duties as well as Jenkins but he would share the ball and he would force us to move and play as a team instead of standing around for Jenkins and Soriano to do it all. We have the weirdest offense in the conference. It’s those two and then we have either Ledlum or (now) Luis take the ball from that closed loop and go one on one over and over in what looks like an act of defiance. A Phil Greene type would be better than a Jenkins wannabe savior.

Jenkins plays two man basketball with Soriano or Zuby. He almost completely ignores the other three guys unless they cut while he’s got the ball in his right hand. Maybe once a game he’ll drive and throw a really nice kick to a shooter.

Get ready for a 6-18 from Jenkins against UConn.

 

[lawmanfan]

You act like Jenkins doesn’t pass yet he averages 5.5 assists. And maybe the other players aren’t getting shots because they can’t; who else on the team can create a shot? You act like no one else on the team touches the ball, which is nonsense. Jenkins averages .42 shots per minute played, Dingle .38, Luis .47, Soriano .34, Alleyne .33, Ledlum .30; he has 117 assists, the next highest Johnnie is Ledlum with 35. Jenkins averages .18 assists per minute, Wilcher is next at .12, Alleyne, Dingle, Ledlum and Luis, all at or below .06. Add in the fact that Jenkins is the ONLY player on the team that can create a good shot on his own and IMO, the idea that he is some kind of out of control gunner is just ridiculous.

I don't really want to get into an extended debate on this, but I will point out that you are missing the volume element of the equation.

The total number of minutes Jenkins has played probably exceeds Dingle, Luis, and Alleyne combined. Any game you look at, his shot total is equal to the next two players combined. So simply by virtue of having the ball in his hands ALL THE TIME, not sucking (I have consistently said he's a productive player), and apparently having carte blanche to do whatever he wants, he's going to put up volume numbers.

The question (to me) is what would happen is if, instead of running everything through Jenkins, an effort was made to get the ball to other players in positions where they can do something with it. That doesn't happen enough partly due to coaching decisions and partly due to the fact that passing is always Jenkins second option.

If you don't see that other players lose shooting opportunities because he consistently hangs onto the ball longer than a true point guard would, then I suppose it's a case of beauty is in the eye of the beholder. To me Jenkins is a lower-level version of players like Iverson, Carmelo Anthony, Stephon Marbury, Kyrie Irving etc - guys who put up numbers but somehow their teams don't win because they do nothing to make the team better. But there are lots of folks who are fans of those guys, and if that's your taste in basketball player that's fine.

 

[logen]

I don't really want to get into an extended debate on this, but I will point out that you are missing the volume element of the equation.

The total number of minutes Jenkins has played probably exceeds Dingle, Luis, and Alleyne combined. Any game you look at, his shot total is equal to the next two players combined. So simply by virtue of having the ball in his hands ALL THE TIME, not sucking (I have consistently said he's a productive player), and apparently having carte blanche to do whatever he wants, he's going to put up volume numbers.

The question (to me) is what would happen is if, instead of running everything through Jenkins, an effort was made to get the ball to other players in positions where they can do something with it. That doesn't happen enough partly due to coaching decisions and partly due to the fact that passing is always Jenkins second option.

If you don't see that other players lose shooting opportunities because he consistently hangs onto the ball longer than a true point guard would, then I suppose it's a case of beauty is in the eye of the beholder. To me Jenkins is a lower-level version of players like Iverson, Carmelo Anthony, Stephon Marbury, Kyrie Irving etc - guys who put up numbers but somehow their teams don't win because they do nothing to make the team better. But there are lots of folks who are fans of those guys, and if that's your taste in basketball player that's fine.

Your criticism is not completely without merit, Jenkins is far from a great player and I agree he is not a “true point guard” but here is the flaw in your argument; who are the other players not being put into positions to do something because I don’t see a player capable of that. So who are the players and what are their positions from which they can produce? Because then the criticism is really on Pitino, whose job it is to put people in positions to succeed and stop other players from disrupting that, he has clearly done that with Luis. My argument isn’t that Jenkins is a great player by any means but IMO he’s pretty clearly the best SJU has; if otherwise than the criticism should not be on Jenkins but on Pitino for not changing things up, that is his job.
My argument is that no other Johnnie player has produced anywhere close to expectations and it is not like that haven’t had opportunities because they have and their only consistency had been their inconsistency for whatever reasons.

 

[Jack Williams]

I don't really want to get into an extended debate on this, but I will point out that you are missing the volume element of the equation.

The total number of minutes Jenkins has played probably exceeds Dingle, Luis, and Alleyne combined. Any game you look at, his shot total is equal to the next two players combined. So simply by virtue of having the ball in his hands ALL THE TIME, not sucking (I have consistently said he's a productive player), and apparently having carte blanche to do whatever he wants, he's going to put up volume numbers.

The question (to me) is what would happen is if, instead of running everything through Jenkins, an effort was made to get the ball to other players in positions where they can do something with it. That doesn't happen enough partly due to coaching decisions and partly due to the fact that passing is always Jenkins second option.

If you don't see that other players lose shooting opportunities because he consistently hangs onto the ball longer than a true point guard would, then I suppose it's a case of beauty is in the eye of the beholder. To me Jenkins is a lower-level version of players like Iverson, Carmelo Anthony, Stephon Marbury, Kyrie Irving etc - guys who put up numbers but somehow their teams don't win because they do nothing to make the team better. But there are lots of folks who are fans of those guys, and if that's your taste in basketball player that's fine.

What you are saying here makes perfect sense. People value different things on the basketball court. I think a key hang up here though, is when a lot of the "anti-jenkins crowd" (for lack of a better term) start to make this argument, you guys consistently absolve the other players from blame and I think that is for frustrating for me personally because I see several players playing below what was expected of them. Maybe you can chalk that up entirely to them "not getting the ball in the right positions enough" but personally thats not what im seeing. I see several guys who get the ball in a position to create. They are just failing to do so. For instance, I have no complaints about the looks Ledlum got last game. He is just missing. Same can be said about several guys. So, I think this argument is more than just what taste we have in basketball players, it is more so a debate about what is expected of guys when they dont have a true point guard. From your perspective, these guys aren't getting the opportunity to contribute due to an offense that lacks a true distributing point guard.

From my perspective, guys are getting opportunities to succeed and are not PRODUCING.

Any game you look at, his shot total is equal to the next two players combined. So simply by virtue of having the ball in his hands ALL THE TIME, not sucking (I have consistently said he's a productive player), and apparently having carte blanche to do whatever he wants, he's going to put up volume numbers.

Like for example, this has not been true for the entirety of the Big East season outside of one game. We're 10 games deep into the Big East season and this hasn't happened more than once. Guys are getting shots and getting opportunities, they aren't converting. I agree we could do more to set some of these guys up for success (Brady for example has not had a catch and shoot drawn up for him, seemingly all year) but as you mentioned, thats more of a coaching thing to me.

If I thought that this roster was ready, willing and able to all contribute on offense, I would be also killing Jenkins for his playstyle. But that is not what I am seeing. And some of your guys suggestions to make things "better" just don't check out to me.

Like several times Marillac/Larry have opined that putting Dingle/Alleyne at the 1 is the right move for this offense and will help fix things. Frankly, I think those ideas are completely absurd because both of those players lack the handle and toughness on the ball that is required to handle the ball consistently at a Big East level. Sure Daniss turns the ball over a fair amount, but my eyes tell me he is the toughest guard we have, and anyone else consistently running the 1 would be more of a disaster than a viable solution

 

[Marillac2]

Your criticism is not completely without merit, Jenkins is far from a great player and I agree he is not a “true point guard” but here is the flaw in your argument; who are the other players not being put into positions to do something because I don’t see a player capable of that. So who are the players and what are their positions from which they can produce? Because then the criticism is really on Pitino, whose job it is to put people in positions to succeed and stop other players from disrupting that, he has clearly done that with Luis. My argument isn’t that Jenkins is a great player by any means but IMO he’s pretty clearly the best SJU has; if otherwise than the criticism should not be on Jenkins but on Pitino for not changing things up, that is his job.

By saying Jenkins is the only player that can create, your criticism is actually of Pitino’s recruiting.

You think he just recruited 10 duds? Or is it more likely that Jenkins has alienated other perimeter players? What’s more likely to you? Some of these guys are proven commodities with 3-4 year careers.

Not one perimeter player is performing close to their past achievements or recruiting ranking. Not one!!!!!!

 

[dk423]

By saying Jenkins is the only player that can create, your criticism is actually of Pitino’s recruiting.

You think he just recruited 10 duds? Or is it more likely that Jenkins has alienated other perimeter players? What’s more likely to you? Some of these guys are proven commodities with 3-4 year careers.

Not one perimeter player is performing close to their past achievements or recruiting ranking. Not one!!!!!!

I think "both" is probably the fairest answer.

 

[IDRAFT]

You get the whole player, not only the parts you want. And for the most part fifth year players are fully formed by the second half of conference play. Jenkins the whole player has warts, he is not going to be an All-American. He is also the best guard on this team, and ideas that have been floated here, such as Wilcher would do more for the team overall, are silly.

My last post on him, as this became a tiresome and spamish conversation over a month ago. Not suggesting anyone else stop.

Have fun, I guess?

 

[Marillac2]

You get the whole player, not only the parts you want. And for the most part fifth year players are fully formed by the second half of conference play. Jenkins the whole player has warts, he is not going to be an All-American. He is also the best guard on this team, and ideas that have been floated here, such as Wilcher would do more for the team overall, are silly.

My last post on him, as this became a tiresome and spamish conversation over a month ago. Not suggesting anyone else stop.

Have fun, I guess?

There is zero chance that Jenkins would have been the Ivy League player of the year last year. He was the third best player on a MAAC team as voted by the MAAC coaches. The MAAC is inferior to the Ivy. Can you imagine what his efficiency #s would look like with the volume Dingle had last year?

I do not believe for a second Jenkins is then best guard on this team. I 100% believe Pitino regrets constructing his backcourt this way but knows there is nothing he can do at this point.

It’s funny you mention Jenkins not being an All-American because I think the anti-Jenkins crowd just wants him to stop trying to be one! That’s it. Give the damn ball up!!!!! Make me other players feel comfortable.

I’ve fully supported limited players like Phil Greene, Posh, Geno Lawrence, Kolby King, and might be the only one to like Malik Boothe. They all played within their abilities. None of them detracted from the play of others like Jenkins. Curbelo, Tarik Turner, and Daniss Jenkins are the only PGs I haven’t liked in nearly 30 years as a fan.

Every single perimeter player is worse off for being a teammate of Jenkins.

 

[SLYFOXX1968]

My response to Monte's post was simply saying that you can't complain that nobody else performed when nobody else got the ball. Jenkins and Soriano took as many shots as everyone else combined. If you take out RJ Luis bonehead plays they took almost a third more shots than the other 10 guys who played. So you can't say that nobody else contributed as a scorer when really nobody else got the ball. There's only one ball, everyone can't shoot at the same time. To some extent it's a zero sum game - if one guy takes a shot, then that takes away an opportunity for someone else to take a shot.

More broadly, my view is that the object of the game of basketball is to take high percentage shots and to prevent your opponent from taking high percentage shots. The way you take high percentage shots is that you move either the ball or the players or both to find your best opportunity. It's a team game, on both ends of the floor.

When you have a scenario in which two players take as many shots as the rest of the team COMBINED (and 10 or 11 other guys played), then in my opinion there are two possibilities: the other team did an amazing job of taking away every other opportunity you might have had, or you failed as a basketball team. Or both.

Where you assign the blame for that (and there may be no blame if you don't subscribe to The LMF Theory of Ball) is open for discussion. I personally believe that there are productive offensive players on this team who have been underutilized by the design of the offense (i.e. coaching) and by the fact that there's no point guard (more recruiting than coaching, but some coaching). So the offense is the stagnant creature that it is, and it is overreliant on a few players. Really it reminds me of when I coached grade school basketball and for most teams the offense was one kid set a pick and the other kid run off it; nobody else ever got to touch the ball.

I happen to disagree that the team would fall apart without Jenkins running the show. I suspect that instead what would happen is that the staff would be forced to run the offense differently, distribute the ball differently, and utilize the players on the roster differently. Whether that would (this year) wind up as a net plus or a net minus I don't know. I just think that Jenkins is a Pitino security blanket - he knows what he's going to get wtih Jenkins, and he's not inclined to try doing anything else this year. Next year he will have to do something else and then we shall see.

LMF , I think you should forward your analysis off to RP .
I’m sure he would agree with the points you raised and would seek to overcome his shortcomings in Coaching this team .

Yes , let’s get Dingle 15 shots or Ledlum 12 . Do you really think that’s the Answer ?

“ Staff would be forced to run Offense differently and distribute the Ball differently ?”

Hmmm . Many on this site are complaining that David Jones should have been retained by Pitino ?
Why ? David recently put up 24 shots .,The next highest Memphis player put up 7 !

Last year , this Board’s consensus was that Jones was a unabashed ball hogging chucker .
Think David is a Pitino type player ?

 

[Redzing1969]

I don't really want to get into an extended debate on this, but I will point out that you are missing the volume element of the equation.

The total number of minutes Jenkins has played probably exceeds Dingle, Luis, and Alleyne combined. Any game you look at, his shot total is equal to the next two players combined. So simply by virtue of having the ball in his hands ALL THE TIME, not sucking (I have consistently said he's a productive player), and apparently having carte blanche to do whatever he wants, he's going to put up volume numbers.

The question (to me) is what would happen is if, instead of running everything through Jenkins, an effort was made to get the ball to other players in positions where they can do something with it. That doesn't happen enough partly due to coaching decisions and partly due to the fact that passing is always Jenkins second option.

If you don't see that other players lose shooting opportunities because he consistently hangs onto the ball longer than a true point guard would, then I suppose it's a case of beauty is in the eye of the beholder. To me Jenkins is a lower-level version of players like Iverson, Carmelo Anthony, Stephon Marbury, Kyrie Irving etc - guys who put up numbers but somehow their teams don't win because they do nothing to make the team better. But there are lots of folks who are fans of those guys, and if that's your taste in basketball player that's fine.

Faulty argument. If he didnt shoot and score Wednesday night nobody would have. He shot more because everyone else was missing, period! Ive seen him ball hog of course but this time he and only he kept team in game.