Why the Recruits for Next Year could save Lav + us

T

thakid

Well-known member
Look the kids we have been getting before this year have been rated extremely highly ALL seem to think they are the greatest and have had egos (maybe there are some exceptions, etc.). What I have felt has been missing form these teams have been the Tyrone Grants, Lamont Middltons, Andre Stanleys, etc. We need the hard working bruisers who will work their asses off and get down and dirty. For probably the only time in our history we didnt have a player like that last year (even Dom who probably came in as one somehow strayed from being one). You add a Delarosa, and maybe a Marlon Jones and a Thomas, and now we've got those hard workers. Hard work and doing the little things is contagious. Dom will start to do them again. And so on and so forth.

Who gives a shit if we don't get a top 100 player this year? We have a top 20 in Jordan, a top 40 in Harrison, a top 50 in Pointer, a top 50 in Branch --- that's more top players than we have had at St. John's since the late 90s probably. Give me some bruisers, some guys to do the little things, and we MAY be able to have a good season.

I am not one of those posters going around and saying hey Jakarr sucks and Obekpa was worthless now that they have left. They are probably in the top 10 of most talented players we have had at SJU in the last decade. What I am saying is that there were clearly issues on the team last year and issues with the coaching. In retrospect, it seems like a lot of this could be because we didnt have balance - we had too many top kids who thought leaving for the NBA early was their birthright. And perhaps it is all on Lavin - if he promised each of them theyd be the prettiest girl at the ball, some of them are going to get their panties in a bunch and act out and not listen if she no longer feels like the prettiest girl at the ball.

We have plenty of talented top notch guys to make a tourney run next year. Let's get the work ethic rebounding defense low down and dirty guys who epitomize a blue collar team. Even under Norm we were still a blue collar team, now we're not for the first time in history. Get back there, with the talent, and maybe we finally realize the success that we expected.

Look I am not by ANY means suggesting this was a master plan by Lavin - I don't think so at all. I think his master plan got busted because he couldn't keep everyone happy, playing together, disciplined, etc. But by sheer luck this may benefit the team and him.
 
Look the kids we have been getting before this year have been rated extremely highly ALL seem to think they are the greatest and have had egos (maybe there are some exceptions, etc.). What I have felt has been missing form these teams have been the Tyrone Grants, Lamont Middltons, Andre Stanleys, etc. We need the hard working bruisers who will work their asses off and get down and dirty. For probably the only time in our history we didnt have a player like that last year (even Dom who probably came in as one somehow strayed from being one). You add a Delarosa, and maybe a Marlon Jones and a Thomas, and now we've got those hard workers. Hard work and doing the little things is contagious. Dom will start to do them again. And so on and so forth.

Who gives a shit if we don't get a top 100 player this year? We have a top 20 in Jordan, a top 40 in Harrison, a top 50 in Pointer, a top 50 in Branch --- that's more top players than we have had at St. John's since the late 90s probably. Give me some bruisers, some guys to do the little things, and we MAY be able to have a good season.

I am not one of those posters going around and saying hey Jakarr sucks and Obekpa was worthless now that they have left. They are probably in the top 10 of most talented players we have had at SJU in the last decade. What I am saying is that there were clearly issues on the team last year and issues with the coaching. In retrospect, it seems like a lot of this could be because we didnt have balance - we had too many top kids who thought leaving for the NBA early was their birthright. And perhaps it is all on Lavin - if he promised each of them theyd be the prettiest girl at the ball, some of them are going to get their panties in a bunch and act out and not listen if she no longer feels like the prettiest girl at the ball.

We have plenty of talented top notch guys to make a tourney run next year. Let's get the work ethic rebounding defense low down and dirty guys who epitomize a blue collar team. Even under Norm we were still a blue collar team, now we're not for the first time in history. Get back there, with the talent, and maybe we finally realize the success that we expected.

Look I am not by ANY means suggesting this was a master plan by Lavin - I don't think so at all. I think his master plan got busted because he couldn't keep everyone happy, playing together, disciplined, etc. But by sheer luck this may benefit the team and him.
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+1
 
Here's the problem.... how many first year players at St. John's have made a substantial impact regardless of whether they came via high school, transfer, JUCO, etc.?

Our "hard working bruisers" took years to offer significant contributions - Ty by his third year (Jr), Lamont in his 2nd (Sr.).

As flawed as they were, we have to replace an entire front court that gave us 26 ppg and 19 rpg with a redshirt sophomore and a bunch of guys playing D1 ball for the first time.
 
Getting your players to buy in to the "team-first" mentality is part of Coaching 101. Unless Lavin figures out how to do that(I can't believe I'm actually saying this about a high level D1 coach!) it really doesn't matter what level of talent we have here.
Also at this juncture, rankings coming out of high school mean nothing. It's obvious that both Dom and Branch are nowhere near top 50 caliber players. D'Lo has played like a top 100-150 kid and Jordan, while talented, still has to prove he's a top 20 ranked kid. So what we're left with is a nice backcourt which will hopefully improve, and a lot of question marks.
 
Excellent post, Tha Kid. Honestly, I'm so jaded by top 50 kids there for "potential" or athletic ability...I don't want to sign one for a while. I think it is worse because Lavin pitches the NBA to them. I'd still go after the kids like Harrison who are there for skill. Top 50 is not 15, but they come in with top 15 attitudes and expectations.
 
Here's the problem.... how many first year players at St. John's have made a substantial impact regardless of whether they came via high school, transfer, JUCO, etc.?

Our "hard working bruisers" took years to offer significant contributions - Ty by his third year (Jr), Lamont in his 2nd (Sr.).

As flawed as they were, we have to replace an entire front court that gave us 26 ppg and 19 rpg with a redshirt sophomore and a bunch of guys playing D1 ball for the first time.
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Great points...but maybe the juco, Thomas, could come in and be effective right away. First year players who came in right away and helped? Hatten. Bootsy. Glover. Grady Reynolds was pretty effective in his first year (averaged 5 and 5). Same with Sharif Fordham. Obviously a lot of these guys were ranked higher, but point being, with playing time, it's possible.

But you could be right and by the time these guys contribute, our top rated players will be gone. We'll see.
 
A top recruit who is "team first" in this day and age of CBB is rare. Jabari Parker is a once and a lifetime player who plays for duke not himself. I'm ok with getting some bruisers this off season that will do the dirty works it's gonna take for us to become a tournament team in the near future.
 
Look the kids we have been getting before this year have been rated extremely highly ALL seem to think they are the greatest and have had egos (maybe there are some exceptions, etc.). What I have felt has been missing form these teams have been the Tyrone Grants, Lamont Middltons, Andre Stanleys, etc. We need the hard working bruisers who will work their asses off and get down and dirty. For probably the only time in our history we didnt have a player like that last year (even Dom who probably came in as one somehow strayed from being one). You add a Delarosa, and maybe a Marlon Jones and a Thomas, and now we've got those hard workers. Hard work and doing the little things is contagious. Dom will start to do them again. And so on and so forth.

Who gives a shit if we don't get a top 100 player this year? We have a top 20 in Jordan, a top 40 in Harrison, a top 50 in Pointer, a top 50 in Branch --- that's more top players than we have had at St. John's since the late 90s probably. Give me some bruisers, some guys to do the little things, and we MAY be able to have a good season.

I am not one of those posters going around and saying hey Jakarr sucks and Obekpa was worthless now that they have left. They are probably in the top 10 of most talented players we have had at SJU in the last decade. What I am saying is that there were clearly issues on the team last year and issues with the coaching. In retrospect, it seems like a lot of this could be because we didnt have balance - we had too many top kids who thought leaving for the NBA early was their birthright. And perhaps it is all on Lavin - if he promised each of them theyd be the prettiest girl at the ball, some of them are going to get their panties in a bunch and act out and not listen if she no longer feels like the prettiest girl at the ball.

We have plenty of talented top notch guys to make a tourney run next year. Let's get the work ethic rebounding defense low down and dirty guys who epitomize a blue collar team. Even under Norm we were still a blue collar team, now we're not for the first time in history. Get back there, with the talent, and maybe we finally realize the success that we expected.

Look I am not by ANY means suggesting this was a master plan by Lavin - I don't think so at all. I think his master plan got busted because he couldn't keep everyone happy, playing together, disciplined, etc. But by sheer luck this may benefit the team and him.
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I don't disagree with your assessment of what was missing but there are also other important factors:
1. Lack of players that can shoot
2. Lack of BBIQ
3. Lack of fundamental BB skills like boxing out and setting effective picks
4. Lack of understanding of team offense and defense
While teams like Pitt and Villanova always have their blue collar guys, the top teams, with top recruits across the board, like Duke or Ky, all seem to get along just fine and the players learn to play as a team. So maybe its not that we have too many highly ranked recruits so much as the type of highly ranked recruits, ones ranked that way for their athleticism and scoring (as opposed to shooting), who dominate HS opponents physically without ever having to learn the skill aspects of the game. Having a combination of the two in the same recruit is great but few schools have that luxury. If we have to choose between BB skills and athleticism in the future, I hope Steve has learned that BB skills are the way to go.
 
^Hatten and Bootsy were Juco all Americans. Glover was a top 25 recruit, narrowly missed the McD's game.

We're talking about a bunch of unknowns who are being counted on to contribute right away. Could it happen? Yeah. Likely to happen? No.
 
Getting your players to buy in to the "team-first" mentality is part of Coaching 101. Unless Lavin figures out how to do that(I can't believe I'm actually saying this about a high level D1 coach!) it really doesn't matter what level of talent we have here.
Also at this juncture, rankings coming out of high school mean nothing. It's obvious that both Dom and Branch are nowhere near top 50 caliber players. D'Lo has played like a top 100-150 kid and Jordan, while talented, still has to prove he's a top 20 ranked kid. So what we're left with is a nice backcourt which will hopefully improve, and a lot of question marks.
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You can teach "team-first" mentality, but that doesn't mean the players do it. They are not robots, UCONN and UK both came together at tournament time, and good for them. Casey Prather as an individual got it in his senior year, De Andre Daniels got it during the tournament, it happens when it happens. No doubt every coach emphasizes it day one, but some team are tougher to teach it than others. Obviously the best coaches get the best out of their players on a more consistent basis, but never always.

Just my opinion, not fact.
 
We need guys like DJ Kennedy, Sean Evans, Justin Burrell, Malik Boothe, Paris Horne, Anthony Mason, Dele Coker, Rob Thomas, Larry Wright, Dwight Hardy and Justin Brownlee. Bring back Norm
 
What is needed is a coach who understands the nuts & bolts of technique, spacing and execution himself and has a system that he can implement and teach. Without that none of the rest matters. You guys can continue to fool yourself that the guys who left were the problem and that all Lavin needs to do is recruit "team" players, but the fact is that Buzz Williams and Ed Cooley would have taken our roster to a sweet-16 this year.

No recruit is going to save Lav. That is what both he and his defenders here have yet to figure out. It will take a new coach to save the program, forget lavin, let him return to tv
 
What is needed is a coach who understands the nuts & bolts of technique, spacing and execution himself and has a system that he can implement and teach. Without that none of the rest matters. You guys can continue to fool yourself that the guys who left were the problem and that all Lavin needs to do is recruit "team" players, but the fact is that Buzz Williams and Ed Cooley would have taken our roster to a sweet-16 this year.

No recruit is going to save Lav. That is what both he and his defenders here have yet to figure out. It will take a new coach to save the program, forget lavin, let him return to tv
Click to expand...

If Lavin doesnt save the program, there wont be a program left to save. This is it, dont you understand? We have been irrelevant for more than a decade. We are now in a diminished BE conference which will make it harder to recruit. Lavin is our last chance.
 
What is needed is a coach who understands the nuts & bolts of technique, spacing and execution himself and has a system that he can implement and teach. Without that none of the rest matters. You guys can continue to fool yourself that the guys who left were the problem and that all Lavin needs to do is recruit "team" players, but the fact is that Buzz Williams and Ed Cooley would have taken our roster to a sweet-16 this year.

No recruit is going to save Lav. That is what both he and his defenders here have yet to figure out. It will take a new coach to save the program, forget lavin, let him return to tv
Click to expand...

Are you referring to the Ed Cooley who blew a 7 point lead with less than 3 minutes to go against North Carolina.
I thought so,.
 
What is needed is a coach who understands the nuts & bolts of technique, spacing and execution himself and has a system that he can implement and teach. Without that none of the rest matters. You guys can continue to fool yourself that the guys who left were the problem and that all Lavin needs to do is recruit "team" players, but the fact is that Buzz Williams and Ed Cooley would have taken our roster to a sweet-16 this year.

No recruit is going to save Lav. That is what both he and his defenders here have yet to figure out. It will take a new coach to save the program, forget lavin, let him return to tv
Click to expand...

If Lavin doesnt save the program, there wont be a program left to save. This is it, dont you understand? We have been irrelevant for more than a decade. We are now in a diminished BE conference which will make it harder to recruit. Lavin is our last chance.
Click to expand...

We have been irrelevant for more than a decade because we have had 2 horrendous coaches here during that time,. The coach makes the program, not the other way around.
 
What is needed is a coach who understands the nuts & bolts of technique, spacing and execution himself and has a system that he can implement and teach. Without that none of the rest matters. You guys can continue to fool yourself that the guys who left were the problem and that all Lavin needs to do is recruit "team" players, but the fact is that Buzz Williams and Ed Cooley would have taken our roster to a sweet-16 this year.

No recruit is going to save Lav. That is what both he and his defenders here have yet to figure out. It will take a new coach to save the program, forget lavin, let him return to tv
Click to expand...

If Lavin doesnt save the program, there wont be a program left to save. This is it, dont you understand? We have been irrelevant for more than a decade. We are now in a diminished BE conference which will make it harder to recruit. Lavin is our last chance.
Click to expand...

For an educated person dee I am shocked at your post. You believe Lavin is the only coach who can possibly make us relevant once again on a national level ?
Your statement is preposterous and completing lacking any merit or substance. There are multiple coaches out there both in college , as head coaches and assistants etc who could return us to the level of consistency we had under Louie.
Just go back over our history.
Brian 1 out of 4 seasons was very good.
Fran 1 out of 2 seasons was very good I believe Jarvis had 4 or 5 good seasons until the wheels fell off.
Norm who was given a job he was never qualified for took us from 6 wins to mediocrity.
Lavin has had 1 out of 4 good seasons in my opinion. There are others who would say he has had 3 good seasons since he has taken us to the post season 3 times in 4 seasons.
If I was the AD I would have a lengthy list on my desk of possible candidates. Would I get the right one , I don't know , but it is far from impossible and you will never convince me Coach Lavin is the only coach who can return this program to national prominence.
 
There are many coaches who could bring us to national prominence but who would want to come here?

A fairly successful mid-major on the make would be a risk that we don't have the luxury of taking. We have no one on board who can evaluate coaching talent. A very successful high major coach wouldn't touch this place with a ten foot pole.

That leaves us with Lavin, who has to be seen as a major disappointment. Who knows about next year's class...but this year's recruits are very Normanesque.

I'm still hoping he'll come through for us...we have few other options.l
 
it's a double-edged sword.

we are not bringing in a Kentucky like freshman class that will carry us to a 25 win season and we dont have a solid foundation of underclassmen other than Jordan who can develop the way the Kennedy/Horne group did.

I am not excited at all about the DeLaRosa signing. I will support him, but I dont think he is a difference maker and he is not going to replace what we lost. The next Andrew Wiggins and Jabari Parker arent walking through the gates of the St. John's campus next year either.

We will be in our customary bottom of the pack finish next year, just in a small-time conference this timne around.
 
it's a double-edged sword.

we are not bringing in a Kentucky like freshman class that will carry us to a 25 win season and we dont have a solid foundation of underclassmen other than Jordan who can develop the way the Kennedy/Horne group did.

I am not excited at all about the DeLaRosa signing. I will support him, but I dont think he is a difference maker and he is not going to replace what we lost. The next Andrew Wiggins and Jabari Parker arent walking through the gates of the St. John's campus next year either.

We will be in our customary bottom of the pack finish next year, just in a small-time conference this timne around.
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I agree with much of what you say above except for the term "small time conference". This small time conference sent 4 teams to the NCAA tourney this year and had St. John's and Marquette or Georgetown lived up to expectations, it would have been 5 or 6. A small time conference only sends one team every year, the automatic qualifier.
As for recruits, there are schools that will always attract the top players regardless of the coach like Kansas, UNC and Syracuse. Kentucky is on a different level than all the rest and Calipari is in a recruiting class by himself.
Steve Lavin was hired for his name recognition and his supposed ability to recruit top players. He has had some success with attracting top rated kids but he has not been a good judge of talent that could blend with a playing style, which he has yet to define at St. John's. I, for one, have been critical of his long term recuiting since last year when it became obvious he was not targeting 2014 players that could have made a huge difference this year. A good recuiter NEVER takes a year off recruiting and that is what he did and now we are getting all excited about signing unranked players and possible transfers because of that lackadaisical approach.
The key to Lavin holding on to his job will be how many early commitments he gets this Fall. If he strikes outs, I think barring a 22 + win season, he will be reading the fine print of his contract.
 
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