What type of Pope does the Church need?

With all due respect Beast of the East, why do you think JP11 will be a saint, when the "priest abuse scandal" grew during his tenure. I know he was a transcendent figure, but that for me is to hard to overlook. He seems as the "teflon" Pope, he acted from behind the situation, not particularly bold in his actions.

Very, very sad.

I cannot fathom why Pope JPII did not publicly act more decisively in dealing with the sexual scandals. His only public comment I recall was "It is right to consider these sins a crime" or something to that effect. I'd spent a fair amount of time reading and studying JPii, and the only thing I could say if that I would have to have some degree of faith that he acted with strength in this matter, even if I cannot comprehend how this was the best way to act. I wish I had a better answer than to say I had near total faith in hsi leadership and exercise of his faith.

I'm not sure if you are aware, but he has already been beatified, a necessary step towards sainthood.
 
the process for the canonization of JPII is already far advanced. In fact, many believe that he will ultimately also have the honorific of "the great" In 2000 years this has only been done a couple of times.

Regarding laying the blame for the "priest abuse scandal" on JPII that is I assume stated in ignorance rather than stupidity. The local bishop is the head of the Church. Despite popular vilification and media representations, a Pope does not just spout out law and other whims and everyone is supposed to fall in line. The Pope is likewise "bishop of Rome" and is among brothers in such regard. It is both politically and ecclesiastically inappropriate for the pope to act heavy handed (not to mention logistically impossible) in addressing the failures of bishops and national conferences and it is done only reluctantly and rarely, for just about any issue. The Pope is more specifically the leader among brothers in matters of doctrine and dogma not governance. But even here it is a very rare thing for the Pope to act heavy handed or speak "ex cathedra." This likewise only happens rarely in the 2000+ year history of the Church.

The bishop at the head of any given diocese in the world, is the head of their local church. These bishops by tradition, try to act in union with the other bishops of the world (in theory if not practice) but more specifically in line with their regional conference such as in the U.S. the USCCB. For the most part the norms of governance as well as rubric and liturgy (like whether to kneel or stand at certain times of the mass) are set here. The current process of dealing with allegations against priests was dictated (in the U.S.) by the USCCB, not by the Pope. Even here (national conferences), the individual bishops essentially agree only in spirit, to follow in line with their Conference, as opposed to there being some sort of Catholic law (or Canon Law) in place. This process of dealing with pedophiles, is like you said very, very sad. The former process (or lack thereof) was much worse but the existing process is basically that any priest at any time is automatically assumed to be guilty and taken out of commission automatically if an allegation comes up. In addition to that, the priest must be treated like a criminal and the local secular authorities must be contacted immediately when an accusation is made. Priests actually have a significantly lower incidence of pedophilia than other occupations such as for example, public school teachers, but for the most part any allegation, much less actual incidents and a priest is automatically national news. This begs the question why, and how it feeds from and into the prejudices and political agendas but regardless being a priest is about the hardest job in the world and largely because blowhards spout on about pedophile priests when almost all of them (priests) are decent people living under this black cloud while likewise dealing with all of the yoohas in their parish and other challenges.
This issue hit very close to home and I am by no means, some blind apologist. But recently I also witnessed a priest get this new treatment and it also is very hard to stomach. Especially in a case like this where the allegations seem very dubious and the priest can't even defend himself because the accuser (or more accurately alleged accuser) is dead with the actual accusation being made by family members after his death and the alleged incident occurred some 40 years ago (no other accusations made in those 40 years). Obviously no criminal case could even be attempted but as far as his priesthood, that he has devoted decades to in the local diocese and as a military chaplain in the Middle East and elsewhere, it is pretty much over and there is pretty much nothing he can do about it. This is a completely separate issue of what to do with an actual pedophile and I would never suggest otherwise or try to defend such a person. But that gray area between suspicion, accusation and proof is now very problematic. There is no easy answer but certainly ignorant commentators and sentiments like 'it's the Pope's fault' and "celibacy makes priests pedophiles" and any other mob mentality don't help.

Just got home from the game, and am very tired, but wanted to post that after reading a few sentences of your post, see it is a very well formed thought, and I will read it in depth tomorrow. Thanks for taking the time to write it.
 
[attachment]484724_578533915499475_73418380_n.jpeg[/attachment]
First Jesuit pope in history.
Chooses Pope Francis in honor of "St Francis" of Assisi the Franciscan not the co-founder of the Jesuits (St. Francis Xavier) nor St. Francis de Sales (he was educated by Salesians)
Is from Argentina, but of Italian decent, his parents being immigrants from Italy.
 
[attachment]484724_578533915499475_73418380_n.jpeg[/attachment]
First Jesuit pope in history.
Chooses Pope Francis in honor of "St Francis" of Assisi the Franciscan not the co-founder of the Jesuits (St. Francis Xavier) nor St. Francis de Sales (he was educated by Salesians)
Is from Argentina, but of Italian decent, his parents being immigrants from Italy.

Thanks for that information, Paul. Actually I am so pleased to learn this. I think the church needs someone who would model his papacy after St. Francis of Assisi. I am also pleased that a Jesuit is Pope. Jesuit superior Fr. Pedro Arrupe, in 1973 coined the phrase "Men and Women for Others" on the feast day of St. Ignatious of Loyola. All Jesuit high schools and colleges have repeated this phrase as a mission to not only educate but to form students to always be conscious of their role in the world to serve others for the glory of God. It's the model for service programs.

Jesuits as an order are the most educated of priests, requiring an additional 4 years of schooling. They are often criticized for being the most liberal of priests, but are also free thinkers. Jesuits often tell students to "question everything". Rather than blind faith, this practice is in accordance with a concept that some evangelicals, notable Josh McDowell (author of "More than a Carpenter") stated that "God doesn't want you to believe in your heart what doesn't make sense in your head".

My son attends a Jesuit high school, and is considering Jesuit colleges high on his list. I have come to admire the Jesuits as a result of the education he is receiving.

I couldn't be more pleased with what I've learned so far about this pope. I wish he were 7-8 years younger, but after a very long JPII papacy, I think the Church would like to avoid that if possible. Perhpas Bishop Dolan will have a chance at the papacy eventually
 
the process for the canonization of JPII is already far advanced. In fact, many believe that he will ultimately also have the honorific of "the great" In 2000 years this has only been done a couple of times.

Regarding laying the blame for the "priest abuse scandal" on JPII that is I assume stated in ignorance rather than stupidity. The local bishop is the head of the Church. Despite popular vilification and media representations, a Pope does not just spout out law and other whims and everyone is supposed to fall in line. The Pope is likewise "bishop of Rome" and is among brothers in such regard. It is both politically and ecclesiastically inappropriate for the pope to act heavy handed (not to mention logistically impossible) in addressing the failures of bishops and national conferences and it is done only reluctantly and rarely, for just about any issue. The Pope is more specifically the leader among brothers in matters of doctrine and dogma not governance. But even here it is a very rare thing for the Pope to act heavy handed or speak "ex cathedra." This likewise only happens rarely in the 2000+ year history of the Church.

The bishop at the head of any given diocese in the world, is the head of their local church. These bishops by tradition, try to act in union with the other bishops of the world (in theory if not practice) but more specifically in line with their regional conference such as in the U.S. the USCCB. For the most part the norms of governance as well as rubric and liturgy (like whether to kneel or stand at certain times of the mass) are set here. The current process of dealing with allegations against priests was dictated (in the U.S.) by the USCCB, not by the Pope. Even here (national conferences), the individual bishops essentially agree only in spirit, to follow in line with their Conference, as opposed to there being some sort of Catholic law (or Canon Law) in place. This process of dealing with pedophiles, is like you said very, very sad. The former process (or lack thereof) was much worse but the existing process is basically that any priest at any time is automatically assumed to be guilty and taken out of commission automatically if an allegation comes up. In addition to that, the priest must be treated like a criminal and the local secular authorities must be contacted immediately when an accusation is made. Priests actually have a significantly lower incidence of pedophilia than other occupations such as for example, public school teachers, but for the most part any allegation, much less actual incidents and a priest is automatically national news. This begs the question why, and how it feeds from and into the prejudices and political agendas but regardless being a priest is about the hardest job in the world and largely because blowhards spout on about pedophile priests when almost all of them (priests) are decent people living under this black cloud while likewise dealing with all of the yoohas in their parish and other challenges.
This issue hit very close to home and I am by no means, some blind apologist. But recently I also witnessed a priest get this new treatment and it also is very hard to stomach. Especially in a case like this where the allegations seem very dubious and the priest can't even defend himself because the accuser (or more accurately alleged accuser) is dead with the actual accusation being made by family members after his death and the alleged incident occurred some 40 years ago (no other accusations made in those 40 years). Obviously no criminal case could even be attempted but as far as his priesthood, that he has devoted decades to in the local diocese and as a military chaplain in the Middle East and elsewhere, it is pretty much over and there is pretty much nothing he can do about it. This is a completely separate issue of what to do with an actual pedophile and I would never suggest otherwise or try to defend such a person. But that gray area between suspicion, accusation and proof is now very problematic. There is no easy answer but certainly ignorant commentators and sentiments like 'it's the Pope's fault' and "celibacy makes priests pedophiles" and any other mob mentality don't help.

Thanks for this post. I decided to remove my response and private you instead.
 
I have read a few times and Paul, you are correct I was ignorant of the rules of the Church regarding governance. Appreciate your straightening me out and apologize to JP11 after all those years of holding him accountable. Must have been painful for him to observe.
 
I have read a few times and Paul, you are correct I was ignorant of the rules of the Church regarding governance. Appreciate your straightening me out and apologize to JP11 after all those years of holding him accountable. Must have been painful for him to observe.

Whoa!! Someone on redmen.com apologizing. Don't make it a habit, buddy! Seriously, nice job, Most of us don't have the capacity to do that!
 
Worst part Beast is that it didn't allow to appreciate John Paul II, I was judging him all that time. He what was great about the Church. What a waste! And I am not a kid.

I should stick to these forums rather than basketball. Thanks for you thought.
 
The best leaders lead by example. Riding on the bus and other stories of his frugality. Our school could learn a lesson from him
 
When the day after the election Pope Francis said to his fellow cardinals, "May the Lord forgive you for what you've done," [electing him] I think we got an inkling of where this man is coming from. I'm impressed.
 
The best leaders lead by example. Riding on the bus and other stories of his frugality. Our school could learn a lesson from him

"How I would love for a poor church and a church of the poor". Pope Francis

Already he has eschewed the papal car, and instead traveled in a regular sedan to his hotel, where he insisted on paying his bill. In Argentina, he did not live in the traditional residence of a bishop and opted for much simpler surroundings. He appeared as pope for the first time, not in the papal red adornments, simply in white. He cooked his own meals.

While the world pondered the various possibilities for Pope, apparently, as always, God had his own idea. It appears Pope Francis is just the kind of man we need to lead our church at this moment.

And yes, given the stark reality of some of the allegations surrounding our university, with chaufers, luxury cars, resort vacations, expensive jewelry, the finest custom tailored suits, wine, and cash stuffe in envelopes, I hope that the Vincentians are taking note and planning the appropriate changes.
 
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