What did Looie have that his successors didn't?

[Ray Morgan]

For those that fancy themselves as recruiting experts, here is your chance to chime in. Although he had his faults, Looie put out a quality product almost every year. Although some good seasons followed, there was a gradual decline that started with Mahoney, and should have ended when Jarvis was replaced. But it didn't. Now we may be heading back down the slide again. So why couldn't a single successor continue to build on the foundation of a solid program that used to dance most years, with an occasional deep run? If Looie somehow drank from the fountain of youth and stayed another 15 years, would it have mattered, or did he retire as we were starting to decline anyway? Can we blame it all on the loss of the stipend? Jarvis and the scandal? Poor decision making at the top? Or was Looie just that special for the program that he couldn't be replaced, especially at the budget dollars the school was willing to spend. For those with the best answers, a book deal on "The Demise of Big Time Basketball at SJU" could be yours for the taking. Feel free to add your formula for getting back to being relevant.

 

[ZanMan]

Different era that you really can't even compare today to.

But, Big East TV coverage offered something many conferences out there didn't. Now every team in every conference can be seen on TV.

Louie also had the housing stipend (don't discount that).

I also think Louie had a great relationship with city coaches. He was everyone's favorite guy.

Today kids want to leave NY and experience college life elsewhere.

Just a few random thoughts that come to mind.

 

[Avon Barksdale]

Louie recruited players. Thats really all it comes down to. He was not the best coach but Chris Mullin, Walter Berry, Malik, Jayson, Werdann, Mark Jackson....he recruited the good players from NYC.

The stipend was ended in Norm's first year.

I think Fran was on track to follow Louie because he was a good recruiter too. He is responsible for recruiting the players Jarvis coached his first two years.

Biggest mistake made was not hiring Calipari. We would have a National Title and a 12,000 seat arena on our campus now.

You all can go ahead and make your "jokes" about how that would be vacated which we dont know is true, but to me that vacated is still bettter than the abyss this program has been in since 2002.

 

[beast of the east]

Different era that you really can't even compare today to.

But, Big East TV coverage offered something many conferences out there didn't. Now every team in every conference can be seen on TV.

Louie also had the housing stipend (don't discount that).

I also think Louie had a great relationship with city coaches. He was everyone's favorite guy.

Today kids want to leave NY and experience college life elsewhere.

Just a few random thoughts that come to mind.

All valid reasons. Some local older hs coaches believed the stipend had a lot to do with it. I think that guys like Frankie Gilroy lived at home, and his father banked the stipend checks for him and didn't let him touch it. At the end of four years, with interest Gilroy had something like $20,000 in the bank - not an insignificant sum back then.

Looie's burning desire to win is often understated. To everyone he was a sweet loveable guy, a character - kind of like the older Casey Stengel. But like Stengel, inside Carnesecca was a tiger who demanded excellence, benched guys (like Curtis Redding) who didn't perform, played a controlled half court offense with point guards who weren't flashy and didn't turn the ball over, nabbed an occasional blue chip recruit, more than his share of the next group of guys, and was chicken soup for the guys who went away but wanted to come home.

 

[austour]

Housing stipend was huge. Some lived at home, others lived together and pooled small amount of their funds towards a house. Provided pocket money for the players. Talk about a group of college athletes that should have unionized.

BE TV coverage peaked after Louie but national and cable TV coverage hurt STJ's regional appeal. Rather than seeing 6 teams a weekend you can see 100 teams a day nowadays.

Also, NY kids were much more dominant at that time and much less likely to leave NY. Like Zan said, it was a different era. ESPN wasn't the juggernaut it is now even 25 years ago so kids didn't know every coach, facility, team and league. STJ was familiar. Now it's a national game. Getting 2 of the top 5 in NY was good enough back then, now it's not even close.

After Louie there was most definitely a move from relationship recruiting to financial recruiting. Not all dirty, but facilities, high paid coaches who are celebrities in their own right, and yes, booster money and services that are not nearly as prevalent at STJ as they are at other institutions, especially those that play high level football.

But the biggest issue was the first hire after Louie. If STJ went high profile rather than rearrange the deck chairs they could have far better protected their turf, image and brand. Instead . . .

 

[beast of the east]

But the biggest issue was the first hire after Louie. If STJ went high profile rather than rearrange the deck chairs they could have far better protected their turf, image and brand. Instead . . .

Just remember SJUs initial plan was to hire a very high profile coach to replace Carnesecca. The late Frank Layden, SJU alum, former NBA coach, and then president of the Utah Jazz was named to chair the selection committee. Feelers were put out to big name coaches who toiled in obscure places such as Bloomington, Atlanta, etc - no one was off limits, and SJU thought that the allure of Broadway and NYC would attract interest from great coaches in the boondocks. Every single person contacted turned them down, and many suggested they just hire longtime assistant Mahoney.

 

[ZanMan]

- no one was off limits, and SJU thought that the allure of Broadway and NYC would attract interest from great coaches in the boondocks. Every single person contacted turned them down, and many suggested they just hire longtime assistant Mahoney.

I wonder how much $$$ they were offering. My guess is that it wasn't a whole lot. Hence getting turned down by everyone.

 

[panther2]

Ron Rutledge. Please don't under estimate the impact that Ron Rutledge had on St Johns basketball. Coach Carnesecca was a success because of the players that he had. Ron Rutledge was doing his recruiting and was well connected to all the high school and AAU coaches. It was Ron who recruited Wayne McCoy, Ron Plair, Mark Jackson, Walter Berry, Jayson Williams, Mike Moses, Kevin Williams, and others. When Coach Carnesecca retired, Ron kept it up recruiting James Scott, Felipe, Zendon, Tyrone Grant, Lavar Postell and others for Brian Mahoney. It was also Ron's long standing relationship with Ernie Lorch that helped Fran land Ron Artest, Reggie Jessie, and Erik Barkley.
In those days St Johns was seen as a destination for city kids and Ron was well liked by their high school and AAU coaches. The other part of it was home visits. When Ron walked into a home with Coach Carnesecca what parents saw was a well dressed well spoken Black man that they would not mind their son emulating.
When it came to recruiting, Ron Rutledge was simply one of the best !!!!!

 

[beast of the east]

- no one was off limits, and SJU thought that the allure of Broadway and NYC would attract interest from great coaches in the boondocks. Every single person contacted turned them down, and many suggested they just hire longtime assistant Mahoney.

I wonder how much $$$ they were offering. My guess is that it wasn't a whole lot. Hence getting turned down by everyone.

Even though it wasn't an era of huge salaries for college bball coaches, I believe that Lou never wanted to make more than the university president, and accepted $125,000, equal to Cahill's. Even then it was far below other programs. I believe that when Carnesecca's salary broke $100K it crashed the university payroll system, which wasn't designed to pay 6 digits to the left of the decimal. So I guess SJU could claim a technical impediment to paying market salaries

 

[Ray Morgan]

For many years, I was a regular at games since Alumni Hall opened, and at the Garden also. Made friends that were already fans, and made some friends fans of the program. The biggest complaint was that SJU could never get deep in the tourney unless they had dorms and recruited nationally. Norm did a lot of that, and Lavin does nothing but that. And look where it got us. Although there were many factors, the bottom line is that the program was mismanaged. My feeling is that the decision makers were used to a good thing on a budget, and never caught up with the changing scene in college basketball. The sad part is that the change was taking place during Mullin's years here, and we failed to capitalize on it. Unless there is another Mullin out there that just wants to stay home, I don't see good things in the future.

 

[beast of the east]

For many years, I was a regular at games since Alumni Hall opened, and at the Garden also. Made friends that were already fans, and made some friends fans of the program. The biggest complaint was that SJU could never get deep in the tourney unless they had dorms and recruited nationally. Norm did a lot of that, and Lavin does nothing but that. And look where it got us. Although there were many factors, the bottom line is that the program was mismanaged. My feeling is that the decision makers were used to a good thing on a budget, and never caught up with the changing scene in college basketball. The sad part is that the change was taking place during Mullin's years here, and we failed to capitalize on it. Unless there is another Mullin out there that just wants to stay home, I don't see good things in the future.

If we are recruiting nationally and in 3 years have a first team big east player (Harrison), an NBA player (Harkless), a guy who just declared for the draft (Sampson), and a guy who will likely go pro before his eligibility is up (Jordan), then why do we have to get lucky with someone local in order to be successful?

 

[Ray Morgan]

For many years, I was a regular at games since Alumni Hall opened, and at the Garden also. Made friends that were already fans, and made some friends fans of the program. The biggest complaint was that SJU could never get deep in the tourney unless they had dorms and recruited nationally. Norm did a lot of that, and Lavin does nothing but that. And look where it got us. Although there were many factors, the bottom line is that the program was mismanaged. My feeling is that the decision makers were used to a good thing on a budget, and never caught up with the changing scene in college basketball. The sad part is that the change was taking place during Mullin's years here, and we failed to capitalize on it. Unless there is another Mullin out there that just wants to stay home, I don't see good things in the future.

If we are recruiting nationally and in 3 years have a first team big east player (Harrison), an NBA player (Harkless), a guy who just declared for the draft (Sampson), and a guy who will likely go pro before his eligibility is up (Jordan), then why do we have to get lucky with someone local in order to be successful?

Because we weren't successful with those players. The reason? I have been convinced, as I wrote in another thread, that Lavin will get the guys with upside that, while recruited by the big programs, would be an 8th or 9th man at those big schools until they learned something. Guys like Dom and Sampson are in the 1% athletically, but in the 50% level in terms of skills and BB IQ. So they need to be coached up to reach their full potential. No evidence, in fact evidence to the contrary, that Lavin is up to the task.

 

[L J S A]

Balls.

And he wasn't a fraud.

 

[beast of the east]

For many years, I was a regular at games since Alumni Hall opened, and at the Garden also. Made friends that were already fans, and made some friends fans of the program. The biggest complaint was that SJU could never get deep in the tourney unless they had dorms and recruited nationally. Norm did a lot of that, and Lavin does nothing but that. And look where it got us. Although there were many factors, the bottom line is that the program was mismanaged. My feeling is that the decision makers were used to a good thing on a budget, and never caught up with the changing scene in college basketball. The sad part is that the change was taking place during Mullin's years here, and we failed to capitalize on it. Unless there is another Mullin out there that just wants to stay home, I don't see good things in the future.

If we are recruiting nationally and in 3 years have a first team big east player (Harrison), an NBA player (Harkless), a guy who just declared for the draft (Sampson), and a guy who will likely go pro before his eligibility is up (Jordan), then why do we have to get lucky with someone local in order to be successful?

Because we weren't successful with those players. The reason? I have been convinced, as I wrote in another thread, that Lavin will get the guys with upside that, while recruited by the big programs, would be an 8th or 9th man at those big schools until they learned something. Guys like Dom and Sampson are in the 1% athletically, but in the 50% level in terms of skills and BB IQ. So they need to be coached up to reach their full potential. No evidence, in fact evidence to the contrary, that Lavin is up to the task.

I understand your point, but wasn't Lavin torched in general for not playing Jordan more earlier in the season? Didn't Sampson impress enough to be voted BE Rookie of the year? Didn't Harkless bust out of the gate to become a first round NBA pick? Hasn't Harrison performed at the same or even higher level as a freshman than a junior? I think given that we came very close to a tourney bid (a Sampson missed layup, a Harrison blocked 3 vs Providence) that we could just be one significant player short. Of course, now losing Sampson, our program is dealt a major setback with no equivalent talent in the wings.

 

[MainMan]

I love Louie, but you could make several All-American teams with the amount of NYC kids that went elsewhere during his tenure.

 

[Ray Morgan]

For many years, I was a regular at games since Alumni Hall opened, and at the Garden also. Made friends that were already fans, and made some friends fans of the program. The biggest complaint was that SJU could never get deep in the tourney unless they had dorms and recruited nationally. Norm did a lot of that, and Lavin does nothing but that. And look where it got us. Although there were many factors, the bottom line is that the program was mismanaged. My feeling is that the decision makers were used to a good thing on a budget, and never caught up with the changing scene in college basketball. The sad part is that the change was taking place during Mullin's years here, and we failed to capitalize on it. Unless there is another Mullin out there that just wants to stay home, I don't see good things in the future.

If we are recruiting nationally and in 3 years have a first team big east player (Harrison), an NBA player (Harkless), a guy who just declared for the draft (Sampson), and a guy who will likely go pro before his eligibility is up (Jordan), then why do we have to get lucky with someone local in order to be successful?

Because we weren't successful with those players. The reason? I have been convinced, as I wrote in another thread, that Lavin will get the guys with upside that, while recruited by the big programs, would be an 8th or 9th man at those big schools until they learned something. Guys like Dom and Sampson are in the 1% athletically, but in the 50% level in terms of skills and BB IQ. So they need to be coached up to reach their full potential. No evidence, in fact evidence to the contrary, that Lavin is up to the task.

I understand your point, but wasn't Lavin torched in general for not playing Jordan more earlier in the season? Didn't Sampson impress enough to be voted BE Rookie of the year? Didn't Harkless bust out of the gate to become a first round NBA pick? Hasn't Harrison performed at the same or even higher level as a freshman than a junior? I think given that we came very close to a tourney bid (a Sampson missed layup, a Harrison blocked 3 vs Providence) that we could just be one significant player short. Of course, now losing Sampson, our program is dealt a major setback with no equivalent talent in the wings.

The reason the team didn't make the NCAA is because they stunk the joint up the first third of the conference schedule, and were just adequate before that. Good teams go the the dance, the rest make excuses.

 

[theuandthejets]

It definitely was a different time in terms of the way the sport is covered now. Every team in major conferences get a games on national tv.

I also think it might be a generational thing for the HS kids. I think a kid from NYC doesn't consider St. Johns to be a major program anymore. Back in the 80's and 90's St Johns was on the same prestige level as any major college program for basketball. Now we are on the same level as the middle of the road smaller schools. I also think most big time players from NYC would rather go play on a nice campus and see something different , and still come here and play at The Garden once or twice a year. They want to get out of this city and see something different. For Lavin to recruit major players he is working from a much smaller pool of players as the big schools like Cuse, UNC, Duke etc.... because if a kid wants the experience of living on a big campus then he can pick any of those major schools, but St Johns is a different situation, if you come here its because you genuinely want to play and live in NYC.

Some people might argue that schools like Villanova and Georgetown are still able to bring in top talent every year, but Villanova and Georgetown campuses are a much different environment then St Johns is in Queens. You have beautiful campuses either right in the city or suburbs of Philly. Queens isnt exactly a draw for kids and playing in the Garden is not as big a deal as it used to be since so many teams play there throughout the year.

 

[theuandthejets]

Ive been rooting for this team for over 20 years, and I think im finally at the point of just accepting the fact that they are a mid major program going forward, whether it be because of what the Big East has become or just that we are going against schools with much more resources and more to offer big time recruits. I think the best way to root for them is the way a fan of like an Atlantic 10 team or Butler Xavier, you know they arent really going to be competing against the Dukes, UNC, Cuse's of the world, so you just root for a big college like Florida or Louisville to compete for the NCAA Tourney every year and then root for St Johns as a Cinderella team that may get lucky once every couple years and sneak in the tourney. I used to think the Big East would still survive and be a major conference, but ive lost hope with that a lot after this season. I mean honestly Providence was a top team this year in the conference, and Villanova's talent was of a middle of the road team that had a great record because of the big east. I know its one game but UConn proved it in the tourney last week. Big East will need a lot to prove that they are still a major conference, because they honestly looked much more like an Atlantic 10 level in terms of talent.

 

[monte]

Once again, every single coach that came after Louie except Norm got good to great talent here. Even BM + Jarvis. Getting decent talent to come here is not the issue. Getting the right man for the job is the issue. Get the right man and he'll not only get the talent, but he'll know how to make us in to a perennial top 25 team again.

 

[jerseyshorejohnny]

But the biggest issue was the first hire after Louie. If STJ went high profile rather than rearrange the deck chairs they could have far better protected their turf, image and brand. Instead . . .

Just remember SJUs initial plan was to hire a very high profile coach to replace Carnesecca. The late Frank Layden, SJU alum, former NBA coach, and then president of the Utah Jazz was named to chair the selection committee. Feelers were put out to big name coaches who toiled in obscure places such as Bloomington, Atlanta, etc - no one was off limits, and SJU thought that the allure of Broadway and NYC would attract interest from great coaches in the boondocks. Every single person contacted turned them down, and many suggested they just hire longtime assistant Mahoney.

Frank layden went to Niagara.