U of MIami-Free tuition for illegals
- Thread starter monte
- Start date
I guess that's a matter of semantics, at this moment they are not targeted for deportation so in theory their immediate presence in this country is not illegal but in practice you're correct. And, I love Berkeley, but the weather's not nice enough so I live in Venice.
-Minimum high school GPA of 3.2 on a 4.0 scale from a well-rounded college preparatory curriculum.
-Minimum SAT 1100 (combined) / ACT 21.
Not particularly tough admissions standards for the DACA kids. I know plenty of kids who had much higher grades and scores, and who were not admitted to U of M. And that was with their parents willing to pay the full fare. Unfortunately for those kids, they are here legally.
I get what you are saying but it is not always black and white for lack of a better term. A friend of mine came to the US as a baby. He went through the public school system where he was a straight A student. He earned a full ride to a prestigious university. His immigration status had never come up (in the public school system) until this point and when it did, they pulled his scholarship through no fault or choice of his own. To this day he is a good "citizen" i.e. he volunteers and is a regular church goer but he's a manual laborer and takes odd jobs to support his family. He could have been an engineer, doctor or whatever. All things being equal a kid who grows up with parents who can afford to pay full fare to a University have a completely different life than someone who grew up as an an illegal and again most of these kids, did not make that choice, their parents did. I've met a lot of illegals including some that have gone through the dark side like gangs and prison, but most are just working their tails off trying to survive both financially and through the rough times they get put through in their neighborhoods and their employers a lot of which use and abuse them. Kids who grow up like this vs entitled have my respect and if they somehow managed to have a 3.2 GPA that is a testament to character.
If it sounds as though I'm denigrating the kids, that was not my intent. And I most certainly don't blame them for taking advantage of every opportunity presented to them. Nor do I blame their parents for trying to make a better life for their family. I've worked in the construction business for close to 30 years, and I've become friends with some of the same people that you speak about, and have an enormous amount of respect for them. On more than one occasion, I've written letters in support of someone seeking citizenship. However Miami is one of the most expensive private schools in the country. A school that an extremely smart kid(with much higher grades and tests scores) from a middle class family could never afford to attend. IMO there's something wrong with the system.
I agree that it is totally screwed up but I think my point was that higher test scores and grades are not the full picture of either intelligence or scholarship and certainly not character, and perhaps a university is taking account for this to make a relative judgement on who they want to represent them as alumni as well as making their own contribution to the stewardship of our country in providing a stepping stone for people that need hope and support.
Monte and Paul, somewhere in this discussion is the issue of "grievance finding and injustice seeking" (give me a reason {excuse} to vent my anger) vs. problem-solving. I fear that there is so much self-serving structure around injustice-seeking at present with people attaching their own unenlightened self interest to a status quo based on folks not changing because they are so angry, that it will take some extraordinary leadership to help the country move forward.
I hear you Paul, but a 21 minimum ACT at a top 50ish school in the country? Not saying tests scores are everything, but they are important. I know kids with a 30+ SAT score from blue collar working class families who did not get in. Look Miami can cherry pick, to a large degree, the kids that they want. So why take a kid with very good scores from a middle class family, where aid has to be provided, when you can have your pick of wealthy kids whose parents can pay the full tuition? And that is exactly what Miami does. So who is getting hurt here? It's the smart kids from the middle class(and sometimes lower middle class) families. Kids from families who may well have migrated here legally, many from Hispanic countries, and through hard work and determination, elevated themselves to middle class status.
beast of the east
Active member
I would agree with Paul that so many illegal immigrants are good, hard working, intelligent people. The poverty from which they come in their native countries would make US poverty seem like relative wealth. Yes, the tables aren't level, and when they get here, they often work for sub-standard wages, do not receive benefits, and are taken advantage of by employers who still take taxes out of their pay even though they are paid in cash off the books from cash receipts in restaurants or manual labor.
All of that though, even when their of children born in this country of illegal parents, does not justify rewarding an illegal action by free education, access to free healthcare, and other forms of assistance. I don't buy for a second that illegals do the jobs that no one else wants. Our inner cities are chock full of unemployed healthy 16-35 year old men who would jump at the chance to learn a trade as an electrician, plumbing, or carpentry apprentice. Even low skilled and unskilled jobs like farm workers and landscapers could be filled if workers were paid a fair wage. In my town among the wealthiest residents are men who own landscaping businesses who profit mightily off the backs of illegal workers. By not paying taxes, employers benefit by not paying payroll tax (and sometimes sub minimum wages), and these workers can avail themselves to free education for their children, and other social services without paying in a dime.
I don't fault a single illegal for coming here, rarely meet an immigrant that I don't immediately like, and sympathize with their plight. Whatever social plights they face by being born into a country riddled by poverty doesn't justify opening our borders to allow them residency here. I'm all about America first, and there are just too many unemployed people here who are able bodied, especially in hopeless inner cities.
All of that though, even when their of children born in this country of illegal parents, does not justify rewarding an illegal action by free education, access to free healthcare, and other forms of assistance. I don't buy for a second that illegals do the jobs that no one else wants. Our inner cities are chock full of unemployed healthy 16-35 year old men who would jump at the chance to learn a trade as an electrician, plumbing, or carpentry apprentice. Even low skilled and unskilled jobs like farm workers and landscapers could be filled if workers were paid a fair wage. In my town among the wealthiest residents are men who own landscaping businesses who profit mightily off the backs of illegal workers. By not paying taxes, employers benefit by not paying payroll tax (and sometimes sub minimum wages), and these workers can avail themselves to free education for their children, and other social services without paying in a dime.
I don't fault a single illegal for coming here, rarely meet an immigrant that I don't immediately like, and sympathize with their plight. Whatever social plights they face by being born into a country riddled by poverty doesn't justify opening our borders to allow them residency here. I'm all about America first, and there are just too many unemployed people here who are able bodied, especially in hopeless inner cities.
I don't disagree (completely) with Beast or Monte. As I started my input with "I get what you are saying" but a private institution should be free to do as they choose. Beyond that I doubt that any of this is beyond a relative scale. I'm not claiming it is fair to give special priorities to disadvantaged people, I'm saying that in some cases it is a good thing to do. A lot of these issues are systemic. Most businesses can't compete without making compromises and forget about fair wages and staying in business. If we are giving special privileges to the Chinese to US markets and now are over-extended in debt to same, look at the politicians and policies that got us there. The politicians and corporations that made these unholy alliances are not who you might expect. Economically our salvation is in small business however there are almost zero politicians that don't undercut small business. Democrats and Republicans give it lip service but then are lapdogs of large, international corporations AND governments.
redfan259999888
Active member
Illegals first and Americans second in this case.
Where are the protests here?
Nah, they'd rather protest statues, that is a part of our history.
They can take away the statues, but like it or not, you can't take away our history.
Where are the protests here?
Nah, they'd rather protest statues, that is a part of our history.
They can take away the statues, but like it or not, you can't take away our history.
I have been a small business owner for close to 30 years(no thanks to local and state regulations, fees, insurance requirements, etc), and I could not have done so if not for the hard work of my immigrant employees and the immigrant sub-contractors that I've used. While I agree with much of Beast's last post, the one thing that I do not agree with is that there are Americans lined up to take the jobs that immigrants willingly do. One of my closest friends for over 50 years currently spearheads the Apprenticeship Program nationally for the Dept of Labor. He has told me time and time again how difficult is has been for him to get young people to buy in to working in the trades. IE HVAC technicians, electricians, etc. The federal government, through the Apprenticeship program, is willing train and place young people in great jobs. They actually have jobs lined up! Yet they have limited willing participants. Sadly, from my experience, ,many young Americans feels that these jobs are beneath them. Years from now, when it's to late, they may think differently.
beast of the east
Active member
If I handed them the minimum bill from my plumber, they would think differently about trades being beneath them.
I do not disagree with Paul about private institutions doing what they wish with their donations. No one is arguing their legal right to do so.
Every school has a mission, and I believe St. John's and many if not most other metropolitan based Catholic Universities have done is pivot deftly away from their missions by shifting a few degrees. Catholic Universities were founded largely to provide solid lower cost academic education AND spiritual formation to sons and daughters of middle to lower class Catholic immigrants. With many cities now much less Catholic, and immigration paths even less so, these very same schools have removed spiritual formation and the words Catholic from the generic mission statement I provided above. While it is still meritorious to offer low cost educations and assistance to non-Catholic students, it misses the mark of their mission IMO. While it is very Catholic to serve the poor, in doing so Catholic Universities dilute their mission and actually provide very few places where a lay student can be formed in his faith as part of the college experience.
Bobby G. and FH did recognize this, as our Catholic student population had dwindled to about 40%. Through initiatives funded by some of our most generous donors and in coordination with the Diocese of RVS and BQ, our student population is now about 50% Catholic. For certain, as Paul said this is within their right to focus in any way they want, but their donor base (as will Miami's) respond with their approval or disapproval.
beast of the east
Active member
While what you say is true, there are SJU board members who are advocating offering admission and assistance to those students who have a better success quotient. To date, with an abysmal 6 year graduation rate, many disadvantaged but academically unqualified students have been laid to waste by combining a financial aid package of Pell grants, SJU need based grants, and QSAD'd with student loans. The students who do not complete their education and get their degree are left only with student loan burdens that are difficult to impossible to repay. If they default on them, their credit is shot, denying them a better life in the near future even if they build successful careers without a degree. While there are many factor of intellect that aren't assessed by standardized testing, low SAT/ACT scores are often (but not only) warnings of pending academic failure. The safety net cannot and is not simply to forgive massive student loan debt for students given an opportunity with a low chance of success.
agreed. that is a (far) right wing talking point designed to stir racial hatred in the same way that the left stirs it with calling everyone that disagrees a bigot or nazi. Even in places that you might not think like say Mississippi or Maine, you have generations of migrant workers (largely from Mexico) that have done the lowest manual labor jobs. On the other hand, most of the businesses that employ them could not afford to pay living wages to get the jobs done.