Trouble at Regis High School

[psk938]

Very likely the true story never comes out here -   They have a major investigation firm looking into it but unless they find something else this looks like a case of immortality vs illegality.   Well aware of all the instances of Jesuits past and hopefully this is proven to be more of a "vow" issue than anything else 

the Board Chair is a very capable guy and a steady hand to guide them through this and don't think he would hide anything If anything new is found.    Definitely an interesting time at the school though 


NC Johnnie-   Class of 1970 is a good class - I know a bunch of your classmates !

 

[otis]

.........................     the % of pedofiles among Catholic Priests mirrors pretty closely the % in Protestant clergy, Boy Scouts, Rabbis, teachers, coaches, etc., etc. Power position people and youths, so the Catholic Church has a lot of company when it comes to rooting out this horrible evil. It is just the Catholic Church is one centralized place and these others are many times de-centralized, one or two-off places so it stays out of the limelight.

Interesting to note, nuns .......

 

====


No one should attempt to trivialize or defend the decades of failings and crimes of the Catholic Church and its priests by deflecting that "the ​% of pedophiles among Catholic Priests mirrors pretty closely the % in Protestant clergy, Boy Scouts, Rabbis, teachers, coaches, etc., etc." .  

The undisputable fact is that the Catholic Church in many cases knew the abuse was being committed by certain individuals and it did nothing to stop it, and in many cases merely transferred the abusing priest to another unsuspecting parish. That is undefendable.

Please take a moment to read the below database that details priests who were transferred for parish to parish after the Diocese knew or had reason that the priest had committed crimes. There is absolutely no defense for the Catholic Church hierarchy turning a blind eye to child abuse and attempting to "rehabilitate" an abused.

Oh, interesting to note about nuns .... every Order of Nuns I am aware of requires its members to take a vow of poverty. Most (not all) Orders of Priests do not require its members to take a vow of Poverty. Interesting.

[URL]https://www.bishop-accountability.org/[/URL]][URL]https://www.bishop-accountability.org[/URL][/url]

 

 

[monte]

Very likely the true story never comes out here -   They have a major investigation firm looking into it but unless they find something else this looks like a case of immortality vs illegality.   Well aware of all the instances of Jesuits past and hopefully this is proven to be more of a "vow" issue than anything else 

the Board Chair is a very capable guy and a steady hand to guide them through this and don't think he would hide anything If anything new is found.    Definitely an interesting time at the school though 


NC Johnnie-   Class of 1970 is a good class - I know a bunch of your classmates !

PSK do agree that this seems to be a case of immorality vs illegality. Do not think  that the Jesuits will release any more information then they absolutely have too. That's thier MO.  A few years ago, when my daughter was a senior at a Jesuit high school, a big scandal broke about an ex teacher who had been molesting kids for years. The parents were told nothing, the students were only told " you are forbidden from speaking to the press". Granted it was an ex member of the faculty, but that's how the Jesuits tend to handle things; by closing ranks, acting like nothing happened, and hoping  it goes away. 
 

 

[beast of the east]

.........................     the % of pedofiles among Catholic Priests mirrors pretty closely the % in Protestant clergy, Boy Scouts, Rabbis, teachers, coaches, etc., etc. Power position people and youths, so the Catholic Church has a lot of company when it comes to rooting out this horrible evil. It is just the Catholic Church is one centralized place and these others are many times de-centralized, one or two-off places so it stays out of the limelight.

Interesting to note, nuns .......


 

====


No one should attempt to trivialize or defend the decades of failings and crimes of the Catholic Church and its priests by deflecting that "the ​% of pedophiles among Catholic Priests mirrors pretty closely the % in Protestant clergy, Boy Scouts, Rabbis, teachers, coaches, etc., etc." .  

The undisputable fact is that the Catholic Church in many cases knew the abuse was being committed by certain individuals and it did nothing to stop it, and in many cases merely transferred the abusing priest to another unsuspecting parish. That is undefendable.

Please take a moment to read the below database that details priests who were transferred for parish to parish after the Diocese knew or had reason that the priest had committed crimes. There is absolutely no defense for the Catholic Church hierarchy turning a blind eye to child abuse and attempting to "rehabilitate" an abused.

Oh, interesting to note about nuns .... every Order of Nuns I am aware of requires its members to take a vow of poverty. Most (not all) Orders of Priests do not require its members to take a vow of Poverty. Interesting.

[URL]https://www.bishop-accountability.org/[/URL]][URL]https://www.bishop-accountability.org[/URL][/url]


 

In no way are the actions of the Catholic Church defensible.  As an active Catholic with decades of church related ministries, I am outspoken as anyone that Bishops who acted in concert in moving around predator priests should be held accountable criminally.   I am not so sure about the civil part, since those funds come from innocent donors and not from any earnings by clergy.

That being said, too many people have used this issue to vent their hatred against the church that exists for other reasons.  Those reasons are numerous - their own lack of faith, church moral teachings they disagree with, a bad expereince in Catholic grammar school. The list is extensive.

I have my own contempt for how the church handled these cases, but I also have contempt for any persons who used the trust that their position inures - a teacher, a coach, a  group leader such as scouts, any clergy, a law officer, a poltician, an employer - as particularly evil and egregious.

It's absurd to single out the Catholic church, above say, Orthodox Judaism, who even in this day and age, laypeople are ordered to bring these complaints to a rabbi (who may be the offender) and not into our criminal justice system.    This is far more egregious, where communities protect Orthodox Jewish leaders by their silence and support when he is accused.

This does not dilute my anger at how the Catholic Church dealt with this one bit.   But to focus your attempt solely on the church, even members of the clergy who were completely innocent, is playing into the hands of those who want to destroy religion in this country.

As an aside I know a well respected detective in the Bronx, whose captain gave him a ton of accusation cases to investigate, telling him, "Here, you're a good Catholic boy, these are yours."   He said the overhwelming number of accusations he investigated were ridiculously false accusations, where the victims could not make a reasonable accusation, even considering the blocking that victims often suffer.  (had to say that for Fuchsia's sake).

 

[psk938]

Monte-   Definitely agree and I know the incident at the school "around the corner" that you speak of.   I think the closest to finding out what will happen is whether we hear about a new assignment, probably not for a while, for the President or if we hear he left the society (which i dont think will happen)

 

[monte]

.........................     the % of pedofiles among Catholic Priests mirrors pretty closely the % in Protestant clergy, Boy Scouts, Rabbis, teachers, coaches, etc., etc. Power position people and youths, so the Catholic Church has a lot of company when it comes to rooting out this horrible evil. It is just the Catholic Church is one centralized place and these others are many times de-centralized, one or two-off places so it stays out of the limelight.

Interesting to note, nuns .......



 

====


No one should attempt to trivialize or defend the decades of failings and crimes of the Catholic Church and its priests by deflecting that "the ​% of pedophiles among Catholic Priests mirrors pretty closely the % in Protestant clergy, Boy Scouts, Rabbis, teachers, coaches, etc., etc." .  

The undisputable fact is that the Catholic Church in many cases knew the abuse was being committed by certain individuals and it did nothing to stop it, and in many cases merely transferred the abusing priest to another unsuspecting parish. That is undefendable.

Please take a moment to read the below database that details priests who were transferred for parish to parish after the Diocese knew or had reason that the priest had committed crimes. There is absolutely no defense for the Catholic Church hierarchy turning a blind eye to child abuse and attempting to "rehabilitate" an abused.

Oh, interesting to note about nuns .... every Order of Nuns I am aware of requires its members to take a vow of poverty. Most (not all) Orders of Priests do not require its members to take a vow of Poverty. Interesting.

[URL]https://www.bishop-accountability.org/[/URL]][URL]https://www.bishop-accountability.org[/URL][/url]



 

In no way are the actions of the Catholic Church defensible.  As an active Catholic with decades of church related ministries, I am outspoken as anyone that Bishops who acted in concert in moving around predator priests should be held accountable criminally.   I am not so sure about the civil part, since those funds come from innocent donors and not from any earnings by clergy.

That being said, too many people have used this issue to vent their hatred against the church that exists for other reasons.  Those reasons are numerous - their own lack of faith, church moral teachings they disagree with, a bad expereince in Catholic grammar school. The list is extensive.

I have my own contempt for how the church handled these cases, but I also have contempt for any persons who used the trust that their position inures - a teacher, a coach, a  group leader such as scouts, any clergy, a law officer, a poltician, an employer - as particularly evil and egregious.

It's absurd to single out the Catholic church, above say, Orthodox Judaism, who even in this day and age, laypeople are ordered to bring these complaints to a rabbi (who may be the offender) and not into our criminal justice system.    This is far more egregious, where communities protect Orthodox Jewish leaders by their silence and support when he is accused.

This does not dilute my anger at how the Catholic Church dealt with this one bit.   But to focus your attempt solely on the church, even members of the clergy who were completely innocent, is playing into the hands of those who want to destroy religion in this country.

As an aside I know a well respected detective in the Bronx, whose captain gave him a ton of accusation cases to investigate, telling him, "Here, you're a good Catholic boy, these are yours."   He said the overhwelming number of accusations he investigated were ridiculously false accusations, where the victims could not make a reasonable accusation, even considering the blocking that victims often suffer.  (had to say that for Fuchsia's sake).

You are certainly entitled to your opinion based on your experiences with the church. As you know, I attended Catholic school from 1st grade through college. I also attended Catholic summer camp with the Marist brothers. My experiences were mostly wonderful. I'm not the most devout catholic, according to the teaching, but IMO being a good person is far more important than being a "good Catholic". I'd like to think I'm a good person. Having said all of this, as it relates to abuse in the church, as far as I'm concerned, priests fell in to a few different categories:
-those who did the molesting
-those who covered for those who did the molesting
-those who knew about it first hand and did nothing
-those who heard about it second hand, etc and did  nothing 

That's it. There is no one else. And that goes from the bottom to the top(The Vatican). I have enough close friends who have witnessed things and been told things from credible sources within the Jesuit community to feel extremely confident of  my position. As I said to my 88 year old Mother yesterday "the fact that I've lost faith in Catholic Priests, does not mean that I've lost faith in God or in the Catholic Church as an institution. I can still sit in church, pray and and feel at one with God, and at the same time not want to be lectured by a priest". I don't need a Catholic priest telling me how to live my life. I didn't need it in high school, and I most certainly don't need it now. But that's me. I'm not criticizing anyone who does. To each his own. 
 

 

[SLYFOXX1968]

There's a simple rule that should be applied to children and adults.   An adult should NEVER be alone with a child in a private or semi-private area.   Teach your children and grandchildren this no matter what the penalty is for refusing on the part of the child.

My kids had an AAU coach who followed this rule implicitly.   I was an assistant to him one season, and I asked him if he could give my daughter a ride to a practice.   HE told me flat out no, that he would never put himself or a kid in a situation where he is alone with them.

A few years later, I coached CYO, and at the first coach's meeting repeated this directive to the head of CYO.   He said, that's a great rule, but it doesn't apply to me.   What a pompous ass!!!  I told the pastor, who wasn't particularly concerned.  I didnt think either were the birghtest bulbs.   That pastor was made an auxiliary bishop, which gives you an idea of the status of our church.

Beast, the flip side of this can be found in some of my work.  The rule in addict rehabilitation was to never be alone with a female client.  Most of the many women I know in recovery from heroin addiction at some point supported their habits by performing sex work.  

Both the research literature, ACES studies and the pioneering work of one of my psychiatrist teaching partners, (and anecdotally some of the counseling work done by my staff) show a strong relationship between histories of childhood physical and sexual abuse and later problems with mental illness and substance use.  The trauma inflicted upon the women both as children and adults had long term consequences and staff were warned from day one to avoid situations that could compromise them and/or their clients.  Violations of the "never alone" rule were grounds for firing staff.

Childhood physical and sexual abuse history in male clients was considered to be less prevalent but how of much of that was rooted in denial and cover-up is unknown.                            I know the AA program for Alcoholics which has great results , tells its Members to choose a Sponsor from the same sex . They say, " Guys with Guys and Gals with Gals."    Makes sense , the focus is on Recovery which is hard enough , without the Guy -Gal  interaction getting in the way . P

 

[BrookJersey Redmen]

Otis, maybe it would be a more fair criticism of my post, and what I mentioned about "percentages" among groups and abusers, if you had also quoted my words about how reprehensible the predators and their enablers were, as I said..... "period end of discussion."

I was merely adding a little nuance and perspective to the discussion, is all. I was not meaning to deflect the horror of what happened.

I am friends with a Priest, who was accused by a young man; this poor Priest went through hell, he was taken out of his Parish, out of public ministry. The investigation ended after 18 months, with a finding of no cause. The alleged victim admitted that he made it up because he had a mental illness that caused him to bring the accusation. The innocent Priest was forever tarnished, and the comments from some parishoners on blogs and websites were awful. The Catholic Church lost a wonderful Priest as he was never the same, left the Priesthood and moved away. I was with him once before the investigation was complete and two women with children crossed the street rather than be on the same sidewalk with the Priest. 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

NC Johnnie: Regis Class of '70....... most of my buddies were in the following year '71, except for Alex Kimball, a pretty good BB player there.

 

 

[monte]

Jesuit President of Santa Clara U under investigation 

[URL]https://www.google.com/amp/s/w...nder-investigation-in-california/2497162/?amp[/URL]

 

[prjohnnies]

In no way are the actions of the Catholic Church defensible.  As an active Catholic with decades of church related ministries, I am outspoken as anyone that Bishops who acted in concert in moving around predator priests should be held accountable criminally.   I am not so sure about the civil part, since those funds come from innocent donors and not from any earnings by clergy.

The civil part is a massive issue right now facing the insurance industry.  Institutions facing these claims are the target of civil suits, not necessarily the individual bad actor (unless it is a Weinstein/Epstein scenario), because the individual's do not have assets and even if they qualify as an "insured" under some type of insurance policy, it is pretty universal they do not get coverage for their own intentional abusive conduct.  But plaintiff's attorneys know this, and so to recover compensation, they sue the institution on various negligence based theories, while at the same time alleging that the institution knew or should have known of the abuser's propensity commit these acts, knew of the abusive history of the individual, transferred the perp around to conceal the misdeeds, etc.  A number of states have lifted statutes of limitations, including NY, to allow victims to pursue damages for historical abuse they suffered.  You now have thousands of claims being brought in different states -- even more than in past years where states had enacted legislation that altered statutes of limitations for a certain period.  A number of Diocese's in NY, NJ and PA have filed for bankruptcy protection within the past year, as has the Boy Scouts and other youth organizations.  The institutional entities seek coverage under their insurance policies for all of these older claims, which date back to the 1950s.  More recent commercial insurance policies have exclusions for sexual abuse, but many issued from the 1950s-1990s do not, and this tends to be the "hot spot" period for this stuff.  If you ask an average person if an institution should be able to recover from liability insurance for a situation in which they knew a bad actor had the propensity to abuse children, and instead of removing/reporting him, concealed the abuse and transferred the individual around (or sent him for treatment), only to give him continued access to kids, they think it is a ridiculous notion.  But the legal issues are more complex.  So in my cases it won't be the individual donors or even the institution that pays for the misdeeds, it ends up being insurance of some kind, sometimes significantly.

 

[beast of the east]

In no way are the actions of the Catholic Church defensible.  As an active Catholic with decades of church related ministries, I am outspoken as anyone that Bishops who acted in concert in moving around predator priests should be held accountable criminally.   I am not so sure about the civil part, since those funds come from innocent donors and not from any earnings by clergy.

The civil part is a massive issue right now facing the insurance industry.  Institutions facing these claims are the target of civil suits, not necessarily the individual bad actor (unless it is a Weinstein/Epstein scenario), because the individual's do not have assets and even if they qualify as an "insured" under some type of insurance policy, it is pretty universal they do not get coverage for their own intentional abusive conduct.  But plaintiff's attorneys know this, and so to recover compensation, they sue the institution on various negligence based theories, while at the same time alleging that the institution knew or should have known of the abuser's propensity commit these acts, knew of the abusive history of the individual, transferred the perp around to conceal the misdeeds, etc.  A number of states have lifted statutes of limitations, including NY, to allow victims to pursue damages for historical abuse they suffered.  You now have thousands of claims being brought in different states -- even more than in past years where states had enacted legislation that altered statutes of limitations for a certain period.  A number of Diocese's in NY, NJ and PA have filed for bankruptcy protection within the past year, as has the Boy Scouts and other youth organizations.  The institutional entities seek coverage under their insurance policies for all of these older claims, which date back to the 1950s.  More recent commercial insurance policies have exclusions for sexual abuse, but many issued from the 1950s-1990s do not, and this tends to be the "hot spot" period for this stuff.  If you ask an average person if an institution should be able to recover from liability insurance for a situation in which they knew a bad actor had the propensity to abuse children, and instead of removing/reporting him, concealed the abuse and transferred the individual around (or sent him for treatment), only to give him continued access to kids, they think it is a ridiculous notion.  But the legal issues are more complex.  So in my cases it won't be the individual donors or even the institution that pays for the misdeeds, it ends up being insurance of some kind, sometimes significantly.

Great post.

 

[beast of the east]

.........................     the % of pedofiles among Catholic Priests mirrors pretty closely the % in Protestant clergy, Boy Scouts, Rabbis, teachers, coaches, etc., etc. Power position people and youths, so the Catholic Church has a lot of company when it comes to rooting out this horrible evil. It is just the Catholic Church is one centralized place and these others are many times de-centralized, one or two-off places so it stays out of the limelight.

Interesting to note, nuns .......




 

====


No one should attempt to trivialize or defend the decades of failings and crimes of the Catholic Church and its priests by deflecting that "the ​% of pedophiles among Catholic Priests mirrors pretty closely the % in Protestant clergy, Boy Scouts, Rabbis, teachers, coaches, etc., etc." .  

The undisputable fact is that the Catholic Church in many cases knew the abuse was being committed by certain individuals and it did nothing to stop it, and in many cases merely transferred the abusing priest to another unsuspecting parish. That is undefendable.

Please take a moment to read the below database that details priests who were transferred for parish to parish after the Diocese knew or had reason that the priest had committed crimes. There is absolutely no defense for the Catholic Church hierarchy turning a blind eye to child abuse and attempting to "rehabilitate" an abused.

Oh, interesting to note about nuns .... every Order of Nuns I am aware of requires its members to take a vow of poverty. Most (not all) Orders of Priests do not require its members to take a vow of Poverty. Interesting.

[URL]https://www.bishop-accountability.org/[/URL]][URL]https://www.bishop-accountability.org[/URL][/url]




 

In no way are the actions of the Catholic Church defensible.  As an active Catholic with decades of church related ministries, I am outspoken as anyone that Bishops who acted in concert in moving around predator priests should be held accountable criminally.   I am not so sure about the civil part, since those funds come from innocent donors and not from any earnings by clergy.

That being said, too many people have used this issue to vent their hatred against the church that exists for other reasons.  Those reasons are numerous - their own lack of faith, church moral teachings they disagree with, a bad expereince in Catholic grammar school. The list is extensive.

I have my own contempt for how the church handled these cases, but I also have contempt for any persons who used the trust that their position inures - a teacher, a coach, a  group leader such as scouts, any clergy, a law officer, a poltician, an employer - as particularly evil and egregious.

It's absurd to single out the Catholic church, above say, Orthodox Judaism, who even in this day and age, laypeople are ordered to bring these complaints to a rabbi (who may be the offender) and not into our criminal justice system.    This is far more egregious, where communities protect Orthodox Jewish leaders by their silence and support when he is accused.

This does not dilute my anger at how the Catholic Church dealt with this one bit.   But to focus your attempt solely on the church, even members of the clergy who were completely innocent, is playing into the hands of those who want to destroy religion in this country.

As an aside I know a well respected detective in the Bronx, whose captain gave him a ton of accusation cases to investigate, telling him, "Here, you're a good Catholic boy, these are yours."   He said the overhwelming number of accusations he investigated were ridiculously false accusations, where the victims could not make a reasonable accusation, even considering the blocking that victims often suffer.  (had to say that for Fuchsia's sake).

You are certainly entitled to your opinion based on your experiences with the church. As you know, I attended Catholic school from 1st grade through college. I also attended Catholic summer camp with the Marist brothers. My experiences were mostly wonderful. I'm not the most devout catholic, according to the teaching, but IMO being a good person is far more important than being a "good Catholic". I'd like to think I'm a good person. Having said all of this, as it relates to abuse in the church, as far as I'm concerned, priests fell in to a few different categories:
-those who did the molesting
-those who covered for those who did the molesting
-those who knew about it first hand and did nothing
-those who heard about it second hand, etc and did  nothing 

That's it. There is no one else. And that goes from the bottom to the top(The Vatican). I have enough close friends who have witnessed things and been told things from credible sources within the Jesuit community to feel extremely confident of  my position. As I said to my 88 year old Mother yesterday "the fact that I've lost faith in Catholic Priests, does not mean that I've lost faith in God or in the Catholic Church as an institution. I can still sit in church, pray and and feel at one with God, and at the same time not want to be lectured by a priest". I don't need a Catholic priest telling me how to live my life. I didn't need it in high school, and I most certainly don't need it now. But that's me. I'm not criticizing anyone who does. To each his own. 

 

Sometime I'd like to discuss this with you.

The scandal that rocked the church in the early 2000s purged hundreds of priests in the Brooklyn Queens Diocese alone, thousands nationwide, many of which had a single credible accusation against them, some that occurred 40 years earlier   There is no question that those priests should have been shown the door and been subject to criminal prosecution at the point where their crimes became apparent to church leadership.   A friend of mine, a former seminarian, now a PhD psychologist who has his own issues with the church, felt that at the time it was believed you could send someone for psychological treatment and then return them to ministry.    I know that for priests who are active today and never committed a crime, it is demoralizing to be viewed by the laity the way you describe.   

It's healthy that you are able to separate your faith in God, and devotion to the Catholic Church from your appropriate at the horrific predatorial crimes that committed.     I don't understand then how you can reject the right of the church to preach moral law based on Scripture.   That has been a primary role of the Church since Jesus, and the role of Pope as Vicar of Christ has been handed down since Peter.   

I spent about 10 years in Bible study groups beginning about 25 years ago.   About half of it was spent in a non denominational Christian group that was comprised mostly of Catholics and protestant evangelicals.   I was surprised to learn that when the church issued a revised Cathechism about 20 or so years ago, that each and every section was cross referenced with a scriptural chapter and verse.   I don't always agree with the church for certain, but I admired the academic near genius of Pope John Paul II.  When I read his book "Crossing the Threshold of Hope", his responses to moral questions posed were so well supported scripturally, that it would be hard to argue with how he arrived at an answer.    One of the highlights of my life was a private audience with John Paul II at the Vatican, which was fairly miraculous.

I complete get your hostility with the priesthood, but given this era of me too, and removal of statutes of limitations both criminally and for civil litigation, I do believe that by and large the purge has removed nearly all offenders.  For certain some abuses have occurred since then, but I believe compared to 1940-2000, the number has been small.   But I also don't think that invalidates the church's role as teachers of moral authority.   They aren't always correct, but if not the church, who are you ceding moral authority to?   (The possible answers would get this thread locked) 

 

[monte]

.........................     the % of pedofiles among Catholic Priests mirrors pretty closely the % in Protestant clergy, Boy Scouts, Rabbis, teachers, coaches, etc., etc. Power position people and youths, so the Catholic Church has a lot of company when it comes to rooting out this horrible evil. It is just the Catholic Church is one centralized place and these others are many times de-centralized, one or two-off places so it stays out of the limelight.

Interesting to note, nuns .......







 

====


No one should attempt to trivialize or defend the decades of failings and crimes of the Catholic Church and its priests by deflecting that "the ​% of pedophiles among Catholic Priests mirrors pretty closely the % in Protestant clergy, Boy Scouts, Rabbis, teachers, coaches, etc., etc." .  

The undisputable fact is that the Catholic Church in many cases knew the abuse was being committed by certain individuals and it did nothing to stop it, and in many cases merely transferred the abusing priest to another unsuspecting parish. That is undefendable.

Please take a moment to read the below database that details priests who were transferred for parish to parish after the Diocese knew or had reason that the priest had committed crimes. There is absolutely no defense for the Catholic Church hierarchy turning a blind eye to child abuse and attempting to "rehabilitate" an abused.

Oh, interesting to note about nuns .... every Order of Nuns I am aware of requires its members to take a vow of poverty. Most (not all) Orders of Priests do not require its members to take a vow of Poverty. Interesting.

[URL]https://www.bishop-accountability.org/[/URL]][URL]https://www.bishop-accountability.org[/URL][/url]







 

In no way are the actions of the Catholic Church defensible.  As an active Catholic with decades of church related ministries, I am outspoken as anyone that Bishops who acted in concert in moving around predator priests should be held accountable criminally.   I am not so sure about the civil part, since those funds come from innocent donors and not from any earnings by clergy.

That being said, too many people have used this issue to vent their hatred against the church that exists for other reasons.  Those reasons are numerous - their own lack of faith, church moral teachings they disagree with, a bad expereince in Catholic grammar school. The list is extensive.

I have my own contempt for how the church handled these cases, but I also have contempt for any persons who used the trust that their position inures - a teacher, a coach, a  group leader such as scouts, any clergy, a law officer, a poltician, an employer - as particularly evil and egregious.

It's absurd to single out the Catholic church, above say, Orthodox Judaism, who even in this day and age, laypeople are ordered to bring these complaints to a rabbi (who may be the offender) and not into our criminal justice system.    This is far more egregious, where communities protect Orthodox Jewish leaders by their silence and support when he is accused.

This does not dilute my anger at how the Catholic Church dealt with this one bit.   But to focus your attempt solely on the church, even members of the clergy who were completely innocent, is playing into the hands of those who want to destroy religion in this country.

As an aside I know a well respected detective in the Bronx, whose captain gave him a ton of accusation cases to investigate, telling him, "Here, you're a good Catholic boy, these are yours."   He said the overhwelming number of accusations he investigated were ridiculously false accusations, where the victims could not make a reasonable accusation, even considering the blocking that victims often suffer.  (had to say that for Fuchsia's sake).

You are certainly entitled to your opinion based on your experiences with the church. As you know, I attended Catholic school from 1st grade through college. I also attended Catholic summer camp with the Marist brothers. My experiences were mostly wonderful. I'm not the most devout catholic, according to the teaching, but IMO being a good person is far more important than being a "good Catholic". I'd like to think I'm a good person. Having said all of this, as it relates to abuse in the church, as far as I'm concerned, priests fell in to a few different categories:
-those who did the molesting
-those who covered for those who did the molesting
-those who knew about it first hand and did nothing
-those who heard about it second hand, etc and did  nothing 

That's it. There is no one else. And that goes from the bottom to the top(The Vatican). I have enough close friends who have witnessed things and been told things from credible sources within the Jesuit community to feel extremely confident of  my position. As I said to my 88 year old Mother yesterday "the fact that I've lost faith in Catholic Priests, does not mean that I've lost faith in God or in the Catholic Church as an institution. I can still sit in church, pray and and feel at one with God, and at the same time not want to be lectured by a priest". I don't need a Catholic priest telling me how to live my life. I didn't need it in high school, and I most certainly don't need it now. But that's me. I'm not criticizing anyone who does. To each his own. 




 

Sometime I'd like to discuss this with you.

The scandal that rocked the church in the early 2000s purged hundreds of priests in the Brooklyn Queens Diocese alone, thousands nationwide, many of which had a single credible accusation against them, some that occurred 40 years earlier   There is no question that those priests should have been shown the door and been subject to criminal prosecution at the point where their crimes became apparent to church leadership.   A friend of mine, a former seminarian, now a PhD psychologist who has his own issues with the church, felt that at the time it was believed you could send someone for psychological treatment and then return them to ministry.    I know that for priests who are active today and never committed a crime, it is demoralizing to be viewed by the laity the way you describe.   

It's healthy that you are able to separate your faith in God, and devotion to the Catholic Church from your appropriate at the horrific predatorial crimes that committed.     I don't understand then how you can reject the right of the church to preach moral law based on Scripture.   That has been a primary role of the Church since Jesus, and the role of Pope as Vicar of Christ has been handed down since Peter.   

I spent about 10 years in Bible study groups beginning about 25 years ago.   About half of it was spent in a non denominational Christian group that was comprised mostly of Catholics and protestant evangelicals.   I was surprised to learn that when the church issued a revised Cathechism about 20 or so years ago, that each and every section was cross referenced with a scriptural chapter and verse.   I don't always agree with the church for certain, but I admired the academic near genius of Pope John Paul II.  When I read his book "Crossing the Threshold of Hope", his responses to moral questions posed were so well supported scripturally, that it would be hard to argue with how he arrived at an answer.    One of the highlights of my life was a private audience with John Paul II at the Vatican, which was fairly miraculous.

I complete get your hostility with the priesthood, but given this era of me too, and removal of statutes of limitations both criminally and for civil litigation, I do believe that by and large the purge has removed nearly all offenders.  For certain some abuses have occurred since then, but I believe compared to 1940-2000, the number has been small.   But I also don't think that invalidates the church's role as teachers of moral authority.   They aren't always correct, but if not the church, who are you ceding moral authority to?   (The possible answers would get this thread locked) 

As an adult, I don't need to cede moral authority to anyone. For children, I would prefer that parents and family be the moral authority/compass, using the teachings of the church as a guideline. In my case, the good Sisters of St Joseph were much more of a moral compass then the Jesuits or Vincentians. Keep in mind my issues are with priests, more specifically with Jesuits. 


 

 

[fuchsia]

Beast, unlike Panther who I talked in to it, you have not attended the Columbia Drugs and Society Faculty Forum, or at least not with me.  About 15 years ago the Forum presenter was Ted App, former Commissioner of Corrections in Massachusetts and a nationally known expert on supervised post-imprisonment aftercare for sex offenders.   The system he developed was very stringent involving both parole officers and clinical experts with frequent in-person case reviews and polygraphs.  I bring it up because one point that App made was that in fact many sex offenders, starting at about age 60, age out of their paraphilia, the exception being, pedophiles. 

 

[beast of the east]

Beast, unlike Panther who I talked in to it, you have not attended the Columbia Drugs and Society Faculty Forum, or at least not with me.  About 15 years ago the Forum presenter was Ted App, former Commissioner of Corrections in Massachusetts and a nationally known expert on supervised post-imprisonment aftercare for sex offenders.   The system he developed was very stringent involving both parole officers and clinical experts with frequent in-person case reviews and polygraphs.  I bring it up because one point that App made was that in fact many sex offenders, starting at about age 60, age out of their paraphilia, the exception being, pedophiles. 

Hey Fuchsia.   Hope you are enjoying Florida.   April and May are my favorite months there.

Although Hazelden was a pretty big client of mine, and my clients were mostly behavioral health enterprises, besides being around recovering substance abusers most of my life, I have no specific expertise in it, unlike you and Panther.   I would say that the most effective people in substance abuse counseling are typically former addicts themselves, who have credibility.

I would make the distinction between pedophiles and most of the abuse that took place with underaged young men and clergy.   Almost all victims had reached sexual maturity, which to my knowledge is a different pathology than pedophilia, though by all means predatorial and horrific    

I'd also say that by and large over the past 25 years, it has become much more socially acceptable to be out and gay.   In prior generations more gay men, for various reasons, chose the priesthood as a cover for their sexuality.   I once met a psychologist who worked with priests in the metro area as part of her practice.   She explained to me that many priests she counseled had the psychological makeup of adolescents in how they behaved, approached conflicts, etc.   Maybe in that assessment is some clue for why the abuse took place with largely adolescent males.

 

 

[Knight]

Beast, unlike Panther who I talked in to it, you have not attended the Columbia Drugs and Society Faculty Forum, or at least not with me.  About 15 years ago the Forum presenter was Ted App, former Commissioner of Corrections in Massachusetts and a nationally known expert on supervised post-imprisonment aftercare for sex offenders.   The system he developed was very stringent involving both parole officers and clinical experts with frequent in-person case reviews and polygraphs.  I bring it up because one point that App made was that in fact many sex offenders, starting at about age 60, age out of their paraphilia, the exception being, pedophiles. 

Hey Fuchsia.   Hope you are enjoying Florida.   April and May are my favorite months there.

Although Hazelden was a pretty big client of mine, and my clients were mostly behavioral health enterprises, besides being around recovering substance abusers most of my life, I have no specific expertise in it, unlike you and Panther.   I would say that the most effective people in substance abuse counseling are typically former addicts themselves, who have credibility.

I would make the distinction between pedophiles and most of the abuse that took place with underaged young men and clergy.   Almost all victims had reached sexual maturity, which to my knowledge is a different pathology than pedophilia, though by all means predatorial and horrific    

I'd also say that by and large over the past 25 years, it has become much more socially acceptable to be out and gay.   In prior generations more gay men, for various reasons, chose the priesthood as a cover for their sexuality.   I once met a psychologist who worked with priests in the metro area as part of her practice.   She explained to me that many priests she counseled had the psychological makeup of adolescents in how they behaved, approached conflicts, etc.   Maybe in that assessment is some clue for why the abuse took place with largely adolescent males.


 

Good argument for married priests.

 

[monte]

Beast, unlike Panther who I talked in to it, you have not attended the Columbia Drugs and Society Faculty Forum, or at least not with me.  About 15 years ago the Forum presenter was Ted App, former Commissioner of Corrections in Massachusetts and a nationally known expert on supervised post-imprisonment aftercare for sex offenders.   The system he developed was very stringent involving both parole officers and clinical experts with frequent in-person case reviews and polygraphs.  I bring it up because one point that App made was that in fact many sex offenders, starting at about age 60, age out of their paraphilia, the exception being, pedophiles. 

Hey Fuchsia.   Hope you are enjoying Florida.   April and May are my favorite months there.

Although Hazelden was a pretty big client of mine, and my clients were mostly behavioral health enterprises, besides being around recovering substance abusers most of my life, I have no specific expertise in it, unlike you and Panther.   I would say that the most effective people in substance abuse counseling are typically former addicts themselves, who have credibility.

I would make the distinction between pedophiles and most of the abuse that took place with underaged young men and clergy.   Almost all victims had reached sexual maturity, which to my knowledge is a different pathology than pedophilia, though by all means predatorial and horrific    

I'd also say that by and large over the past 25 years, it has become much more socially acceptable to be out and gay.   In prior generations more gay men, for various reasons, chose the priesthood as a cover for their sexuality.   I once met a psychologist who worked with priests in the metro area as part of her practice.   She explained to me that many priests she counseled had the psychological makeup of adolescents in how they behaved, approached conflicts, etc.   Maybe in that assessment is some clue for why the abuse took place with largely adolescent males.





 

Good argument for married priests.

Knight IMO and that of many others I know, only a small % of Priests are heterosexual. The rest are either gay or asexual. Since the Catholic Church does not permit gay marriage and most likely won't in our lifetime, allowing heterosexual priests to marry will not make a major difference. Sex between consenting adults(as long as one is not taking advantage based on power) is not my concern. So Priests having sex (yes it does happen) is not my concern. Predatory behavior is my concern, and should he everyone's. Again, this is just my opinion. But it's substantiated by a lot of things that I've heard from extremely reliable sources. 


 

 

[BrookJersey Redmen]

Wouldn't it be great if the Catholic Church went for woman priests?

Women are more natural to the position in my opinion. Nurturers, healers, more sympathetic and empathetic, with maternal instincts about consoling and helping others, etc.

Female religious (with a few bad apple exceptions for physical discipline back in the old days (not sexual but mean)) have been almost totally exempt from sex abuse scandals. I think women religious are more likely to be heterosexual but very happy to also be chaste. (% of lesbians much lower than % of gay men worldwide).

But compared to actual credible sex abuse cases among male religious, with nuns and female religious it is almost unheard of, thus allowing women to become Priests helps two problems. And of course we are finding that we need priests and now we are doubling our population of potential priests.

 

[monte]

Wouldn't it be great if the Catholic Church went for woman priests?

Women are more natural to the position in my opinion. Nurturers, healers, more sympathetic and empathetic, with maternal instincts about consoling and helping others, etc.

Female religious (with a few bad apple exceptions for physical discipline back in the old days (not sexual but mean)) have been almost totally exempt from sex abuse scandals. I think women religious are more likely to be heterosexual but very happy to also be chaste. (% of lesbians much lower than % of gay men worldwide).

But compared to actual credible sex abuse cases among male religious, with nuns and female religious it is almost unheard of, thus allowing women to become Priests helps two problems. And of course we are finding that we need priests and now we are doubling our population of potential priests.

BJR I had a wonderful relationship with most of the Sisters of St Joseph during my elementary school years at St. Angela Hall in Brooklyn. There were a few nasty ones but even those  I managed to work around. My sister attended the all girls St Angela Hall High School and even all these years later, there hasn't been even a rumor of any abuse or impropriety. Not saying that some didn't exist, but it pales in comparison to what has gone on with priests. Having said that, with the Catholic church also having a hard time attracting women to Nunhood(?), not sure they would have any more success attracting them to the Priesthood. For that and that, why not just give Nuns more authority? Allow them to say Mass, etc. 

 

 

[fuchsia]

And quite a few of the people who trained me in addiction services were hard core communist, just out of the jungles of Guatemala, Maryknoll nuns.  The Federales were in deep trouble going up against those women.