Trai Donaldson

I don't think this had anything to do with Lavin.
They needed bodies and they took kids from the Rec center.
Let's be fair here.

If one of his walk-ons won the Nobel Peace Prize do you think Coach Lavs wouldn't himself have taken credit for helping the young man on his incremental magic carpet ride up the mountain? It'd be first line on his resume.

I think you really dislike Lavin more than Jarvis. Or is it just a more recent thing?
I really thought Mahoney was a buffoon, but Norm wiped Mahoney's ineptness almost completely out of my memories.
Unfortunately or maybe fortunately still haven't found someone to take Norm's place.

Norm and Mahoney failed because they were bad coaches. Jarvis and Lavin failed because they were bad people. And all the while they were failing due to their own personal shortcomings they were lauding themselves as molders of young men's character. Grady Reynolds, Sharif Fordham, Jack Wolfenwhatever, James Felton, Rysheed Jordan, etc say otherwise. There's a long list of personalities whose shortcomings they either didn't recognize or whose behaviors they failed to ameliorate.

Obviously I don't think Coach Lavs created a serial killer and am not seriously suggesting he's even vaguely responsible for what happened. That's just schtick. But otoh I don't doubt he'd credit himself for any vaguely positive thing that any of his players accomplished, because I've seen him do it: he has to, it's part of his pathology.

 
I don't think this had anything to do with Lavin.
They needed bodies and they took kids from the Rec center.
Let's be fair here.

If one of his walk-ons won the Nobel Peace Prize do you think Coach Lavs wouldn't himself have taken credit for helping the young man on his incremental magic carpet ride up the mountain? It'd be first line on his resume.

I think you really dislike Lavin more than Jarvis. Or is it just a more recent thing?
I really thought Mahoney was a buffoon, but Norm wiped Mahoney's ineptness almost completely out of my memories.
Unfortunately or maybe fortunately still haven't found someone to take Norm's place.

Norm and Mahoney failed because they were bad coaches. Jarvis and Lavin failed because they were bad people. And all the while they were failing due to their own personal shortcomings they were lauding themselves as molders of young men's character. Grady Reynolds, Sharif Fordham, Jack Wolfenwhatever, James Felton, Rysheed Jordan, etc say otherwise. There's a long list of personalities whose shortcomings they either didn't recognize or whose behaviors they failed to ameliorate.

Obviously I don't think Coach Lavs created a serial killer and am not seriously suggesting he's even vaguely responsible for what happened. That's just schtick. But otoh I don't doubt he'd credit himself for any vaguely positive thing that any of his players accomplished, because I've seen him do it: he has to, it's part of his pathology.

I knew you weren't serious about serial killer stuff, just that you bash Lavin more than Jarvis now but probably because Lavin more recent.

For me, I could care less if a coach is a good guy or bad guy. I never understood that whole "Nice guy Norm" nonsense. And judging by all the people on here clamoring for Mike Rice to be an assistant most on here have moved on from nice being a important attribute for being a coach as well.

BTW I think Lavin was a buffoon and a self promoter, but wouldn't put him in Jarvis bad guy category.

 
I knew you weren't serious about serial killer stuff, just that you bash Lavin more than Jarvis now but probably because Lavin more recent.

Right. I dislike my third wife more than my first and my fifth more than my third.


For me, I could care less if a coach is a good guy or bad guy. I never understood that whole "Nice guy Norm" nonsense. And judging by all the people on here clamoring for Mike Rice to be an assistant most on here have moved on from nice being a important attribute for being a coach as well.

Norm being a nice guy isn't an excuse for his poor performance. It's merely acknowledging that there are other parameters to existence than professional success or failure. Bobby Knight was a good coach and a bad person. Harvey Weinstein was a good movie producer when he wasn't being a rapist. Bono can't sing but he gives a lot of money to charity. Anyway I couldn't be less interested in re litigating Norm. As a coach he is what his record was. So he was a bad coach. But compared to the last couple three we've had he was a boy scout and that counts for something in the grand scheme.



BTW I think Lavin was a buffoon and a self promoter, but wouldn't put him in Jarvis bad guy category.

Jarvis was merely sleazy. Lavin is so mentally damaged that I almost feel sorry for him. Almost.
 
I knew you weren't serious about serial killer stuff, just that you bash Lavin more than Jarvis now but probably because Lavin more recent.

Right. I dislike my third wife more than my first and my fifth more than my third.


For me, I could care less if a coach is a good guy or bad guy. I never understood that whole "Nice guy Norm" nonsense. And judging by all the people on here clamoring for Mike Rice to be an assistant most on here have moved on from nice being a important attribute for being a coach as well.

Norm being a nice guy isn't an excuse for his poor performance. It's merely acknowledging that there are other parameters to existence than professional success or failure. Bobby Knight was a good coach and a bad person. Harvey Weinstein was a good movie producer when he wasn't being a rapist. Bono can't sing but he gives a lot of money to charity. Anyway I couldn't be less interested in re litigating Norm. As a coach he is what his record was. So he was a bad coach. But compared to the last couple three we've had he was a boy scout and that counts for something in the grand scheme.



BTW I think Lavin was a buffoon and a self promoter, but wouldn't put him in Jarvis bad guy category.

Jarvis was merely sleazy. Lavin is so mentally damaged that I almost feel sorry for him. Almost.

Every single one of our head coaching hires after Lou (A.F.) has been a compromise. We never attempted to hire an established head coach because we never intended to pay the going rate for top tier coaches. That only changed with the Lavin hire when reality hit St. John's in the face. So, I give Lavin all the credit for bringing us back to relevance both in national profile and in the coaching ranks. I personally liked him as a person but not as much as a celebrity which he saw himself while at St. John's. With Chris Mullin we currently have the best of both worlds in that he is an established celebrity bringing attention to the program and a dedicated St. John's loyalist who, unlike Fraschilla and Jarvis, is not looking for his next bigger coaching job. That said, we continue to pay the price in the x and o end of the job. I personally do not see Mullin as a quick study and question his ability to work with a better more experienced staff around him. Right now I see him singing "My Way", a Frank Sinatra hit but performing it in the Johnny Rotten version.


 
Every single one of our head coaching hires after Lou (A.F.) has been a compromise. We never attempted to hire an established head coach because we never intended to pay the going rate for top tier coaches. That only changed with the Lavin hire when reality hit St. John's in the face. So, I give Lavin all the credit for bringing us back to relevance both in national profile and in the coaching ranks. I personally liked him as a person but not as much as a celebrity which he saw himself while at St. John's. With Chris Mullin we currently have the best of both worlds in that he is an established celebrity bringing attention to the program and a dedicated St. John's loyalist who, unlike Fraschilla and Jarvis, is not looking for his next bigger coaching job. That said, we continue to pay the price in the x and o end of the job. I personally do not see Mullin as a quick study and question his ability to work with a better more experienced staff around him. Right now I see him singing "My Way", a Frank Sinatra hit but performing it in the Johnny Rotten version.

Tend to disagree. Other than Norm they were all logical hires. Fran was a local boy on the come, Jarvis was a minority on the rise and even I was excited about Lavin until I got to know him. Mullin had better not fail, because there's no where to go after him.
 
Brian Mahoney was a terrible coach. Fraschilla good but a bitter lemon type guy. Jarvis a pompous jerk, a terrible recruiter, and an 'eh' coach. Norm out-of-his-league. Lavin out-of-his-depth as a coach but a good recruiting record early, very spotty for the latter couple years of his tenure because he's a touch lazy and thought his celebrity would bring the kids in, hardly had a 'Plan A' and Zilch for 'Plan B'.
The jury is out on Mullin. Super Golden Unprecedented Redman-of-All-Time credentials, plus an NBA All-of-Famer. HIS 'glow' will attract kids. Plus, we're extraordinarily lucky to have Matt A back-stopping the recruiting ranks. Remains to-be-seen if Mitch can recruit. He should be able to.
The x-and-o piece of this is a mystery. St Jean? Or Chris & Mitch's combined NBA achievements will seep into their new roles at SJU.
We shall see.
 
Every single one of our head coaching hires after Lou (A.F.) has been a compromise. We never attempted to hire an established head coach because we never intended to pay the going rate for top tier coaches. That only changed with the Lavin hire when reality hit St. John's in the face. So, I give Lavin all the credit for bringing us back to relevance both in national profile and in the coaching ranks. I personally liked him as a person but not as much as a celebrity which he saw himself while at St. John's. With Chris Mullin we currently have the best of both worlds in that he is an established celebrity bringing attention to the program and a dedicated St. John's loyalist who, unlike Fraschilla and Jarvis, is not looking for his next bigger coaching job. That said, we continue to pay the price in the x and o end of the job. I personally do not see Mullin as a quick study and question his ability to work with a better more experienced staff around him. Right now I see him singing "My Way", a Frank Sinatra hit but performing it in the Johnny Rotten version.

Tend to disagree. Other than Norm they were all logical hires. Fran was a local boy on the come, Jarvis was a minority on the rise and even I was excited about Lavin until I got to know him. Mullin had better not fail, because there's no where to go after him.

Brian Mahoney was likely the biggest compromise St. John's made in the post Carnesecca era.  The school allowed Lou to designate him as heir when in fact he was always a mediocre assistant coach and was a complete disaster when he left the program to coach Manhattan.  Fran was a good hire and good recruiter but, like Jarvis, only used the St. John's job to enhance his resume.  Norm Roberts was a decent man who never recruited talent to mask his coaching weaknesses.  I still think that had Mike Dunlap never left for his short stint in the NBA and had Lavin never gotten ill with cancer that Steve Lavin's career at St. John's could have flourished.  Water under the bridge now.  I, like everyone here, am a very big fan of Chris Mullin.  However, I was not a fan of his hiring.  I am not sold that coaching, in the long run, is in his DNA.  In retrospect either of the Hurley boys would have been more logical hires but the internal shenanigans surrounding the decision making process convinced the new SJU president that Mullin was the only choice (savior).  We may have been the only Division 1 school in the power basketball conferences to hire a middle aged man who had never coached a day in his life.  His first year was emblematic of his lack of experience. The disintegration of his relationship with Slice after only a few months also left a bad taste in many fan's mouths who questioned his management and decision making abilities.
While there would still be a basketball program should Mullin falter I agree it would be difficult to attract a top tier coach because of our substandard facilities, negative history with previous coaches who all failed after St. John's and the lack of fan support.  We are all rooting for Mullin to succeed.  He just needs to speed up his learning process because the honeymoon is over.
 
Every single one of our head coaching hires after Lou (A.F.) has been a compromise. We never attempted to hire an established head coach because we never intended to pay the going rate for top tier coaches. That only changed with the Lavin hire when reality hit St. John's in the face. So, I give Lavin all the credit for bringing us back to relevance both in national profile and in the coaching ranks. I personally liked him as a person but not as much as a celebrity which he saw himself while at St. John's. With Chris Mullin we currently have the best of both worlds in that he is an established celebrity bringing attention to the program and a dedicated St. John's loyalist who, unlike Fraschilla and Jarvis, is not looking for his next bigger coaching job. That said, we continue to pay the price in the x and o end of the job. I personally do not see Mullin as a quick study and question his ability to work with a better more experienced staff around him. Right now I see him singing "My Way", a Frank Sinatra hit but performing it in the Johnny Rotten version.

Tend to disagree. Other than Norm they were all logical hires. Fran was a local boy on the come, Jarvis was a minority on the rise and even I was excited about Lavin until I got to know him. Mullin had better not fail, because there's no where to go after him.

Brian Mahoney was likely the biggest compromise St. John's made in the post Carnesecca era.  The school allowed Lou to designate him as heir when in fact he was always a mediocre assistant coach and was a complete disaster when he left the program to coach Manhattan.  Fran was a good hire and good recruiter but, like Jarvis, only used the St. John's job to enhance his resume.  Norm Roberts was a decent man who never recruited talent to mask his coaching weaknesses.  I still think that had Mike Dunlap never left for his short stint in the NBA and had Lavin never gotten ill with cancer that Steve Lavin's career at St. John's could have flourished.  Water under the bridge now.  I, like everyone here, am a very big fan of Chris Mullin.  However, I was not a fan of his hiring.  I am not sold that coaching, in the long run, is in his DNA.  In retrospect either of the Hurley boys would have been more logical hires but the internal shenanigans surrounding the decision making process convinced the new SJU president that Mullin was the only choice (savior).  We may have been the only Division 1 school in the power basketball conferences to hire a middle aged man who had never coached a day in his life.  His first year was emblematic of his lack of experience. The disintegration of his relationship with Slice after only a few months also left a bad taste in many fan's mouths who questioned his management and decision making abilities.
While there would still be a basketball program should Mullin falter I agree it would be difficult to attract a top tier coach because of our substandard facilities, negative history with previous coaches who all failed after St. John's and the lack of fan support.  We are all rooting for Mullin to succeed.  He just needs to speed up his learning process because the honeymoon is over.

I am getting to that age where i am beginning to forget more than i remember but your post is reflective of that syndrome.

When coach C retired, SJU believed that the job of coach of SJU was an elite job where there was mom limit to a long line of coaches would give their eye tooth to come here. Frank Layden, himself a successful NBA coach and executive was appointed to head up a search committee. The school then waited to see just who among the country's great coaches would throw their hat in the ring. A Bobby Knight Perhaps? Maybe a Bobby Cremins, who hailed from nyc. Who knows? The list had no end. Who wouldn't want to come to this school with a glorious history - a plum job that paid Looie all of 125k per season. Heck they might not even have to pay someone to come here.

No one notable applied. The committee made a list and reached out to them. The answer was the same each time. No thanks, not interested. A number supposedly said the same thing - hire Brian Mahoney, looie's long time chief assistant, who carried the clipboard and deftly charted plays during timeouts while Looie ranted, cajoled, inspired, and led his team to victories and annual ncaa berths.

Sure Brian came cheaply. I seem to remember his salary was the sub market 400k or so. I think fran was hired in the same range or below. Jarvis maybe double that based on his success at gw and norm I seem to remember at 600k because his prior hc big was queens college.

Of course, all of those failed, and it wasn't until lavin was hired that the school realized the folly in not loosening the purse strings. Not all the way mind you. The super elite coaches such as Billy Donovan wete earning double that, and Billy in a state with a lower cost of living and zero income tax. 2 million was and is still among the top 30 salaries paid to veey good coaches.
 
First, all fans, Alums, and all those part of the St John’s Family are shocked and saddened at the Arrest and jailing of a recent Graduate of the Sports Management program and former Walk on Player. Prayers for the victims and Family of those Murdered . I think all of us bfeel hurt that such a Individual shared our University’s heritage and culture. And, yet, if the charges are valid , as they seem to be , he departed from the Values he was presented by his Catholic and Academic Education . No, Lavin is not responsible for the conduct of this Individual , no more than he is responsible for Rysheed Jordan’s criminal actions . But, today , this is one more taint to the University’s reputation , regardless of the fact that no one , save the Accused , harbors any responsibility for this Crime . And, it shames and embarrasses all of us .
 
Shames and embarrasses us all is a bit much, considering the only people still talking about this are on this board. It's not like Ponds went nuts and killed four people. It's a grad who no one remembers walking on.
 
Shames and embarrasses us all is a bit much, considering the only people still talking about this are on this board. It's not like Ponds went nuts and killed four people. It's a grad who no one remembers walking on.

Call me when Harvard graduates are shamed and embarrassed by Ted Kaczynski

 
I honestly do not believe that outside of this forum and the SJU bball community is anyone paying much attention to the relationship this walk on had with the school. We are just not that relevant yet for this to get that kind of national press.
 
I honestly do not believe that outside of this forum and the SJU bball community is anyone paying much attention to the relationship this walk on had with the school. We are just not that relevant yet for this to get that kind of national press.

You may have been out of the country but every article written about this nut job in the national press has referenced him having attended St. John's. The only things that irk me is the emphasis that he "played basketball" here which is 100% fake news and the fact that his St. John's degree was so useless in Florida that he was working at a McDonald's.:eek:
 
actually believe it or not I have been getting a lot of texts and questions about this kid. I don't even remember him playing or his name on the roster.
 
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