Class of 72
Active member
Why not! After 6 and a half coaches in 25 years if incessant describes unending, never-ending, everlasting, eternal, perpetual, continuous, then who am I to deprive you?
The Incessant St. John's Coaching Debate
- Thread starter Class of 72
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Why not! After 6 and a half coaches in 25 years if incessant describes unending, never-ending, everlasting, eternal, perpetual, continuous, then who am I to deprive you?
Lane Kiffin head football coach at FAU hires 24 year old Charlie Weis Jr. as offensive coordinator making him the youngest coordinator in college football. Kiffin explained how he took inspiration from Chris Mullin's hiring of Greg St. Jean as de facto head coach of St. John's University.
billthetruth
Well-known member
Plus the long-winded post is coming from somebody that torn apart Lavin for 4 years straight here. Now Lavin is a martyr according to him, that was blackballed by many supporters. For four years all he did was kill Lavin on this site.
I sense a little bit of bi-polar disorder here. lol
beast of the east
Active member
We all have short memories. People forget that Lavin resurrected a moribund program. I know for a fact that the decision makers who cast his fate were torn between weighing the vast improvement but moderate success and the value proposition of paying him $2 million when the program was stuck in second gear. It was a good decision to cut bait, but it remains to be seen if this regime is an improvement or not.
I have a friend who is very close to Jay Wright, and entering his 4th season at Nova told him, "Jay, you had better start winning soon or you will be gone".
The result? NCAAs 12 out of the next 13 years.
Norm got 6 years. Lavin got 5 years. Mike Jarvis lasted into his 6th season.
Mullin will not be fired after 4. Pretty safe bet, so we can stop the nonsense.
I have a friend who is very close to Jay Wright, and entering his 4th season at Nova told him, "Jay, you had better start winning soon or you will be gone".
The result? NCAAs 12 out of the next 13 years.
Norm got 6 years. Lavin got 5 years. Mike Jarvis lasted into his 6th season.
Mullin will not be fired after 4. Pretty safe bet, so we can stop the nonsense.
Class of 72
Active member
Good thing I know you are one of the biggest BS, non-contributing ass kissers on this site who is happy being in the positive spin business. I didn't "torn apart" Lav or 4 straight years. You may have me confused with some other maven friend of OTIS who was in the habit of posting fan's wives on the Internet to intimidate their silence. I supported Lavin up until the end of his fourth season and suspected his departure after being made privy to the behind-the-back maneuvers. I said back then, and Paul can pull the archives, that if Lav did not sign his key targets with Isiah Briscoe being the prime target, he would be gone. I'm now saying the same thing for our $2 million dollar coach-in-training if you bother to pay attention because if he can't get the high level players to come to Union & Utopia he is useless for that kind of compensation.
Thanks for the diagnosis! My wife agrees with you.
billthetruth
Well-known member
Have a nice day Chief Redman. Word of advice once you use curse words in your posts, the message tends to be taken less seriously, if that is possible in your case.
If supporting my school and team through the best and worst times is ass kissing to use your words, count me in.
And enlighten me on what is considered non-contributing BS. When reading this site, 95% of the posts (save Paultzman's and JerseyShoreJohnny's contributions) tend to be emotional, non-sensible stuff, especially after loses.
If supporting my school and team through the best and worst times is ass kissing to use your words, count me in.
And enlighten me on what is considered non-contributing BS. When reading this site, 95% of the posts (save Paultzman's and JerseyShoreJohnny's contributions) tend to be emotional, non-sensible stuff, especially after loses.
Class of 72
Active member
Thank you Bill. You have a great weekend too! I apologize for the curse words. It is a bad habit I learned from the Xaverian Brothers while doing my weekly stints in detention after school. Those monsters still haunt me now and no doubt had the same bad influence on Mully's vocabulary as he has broken the St. John's coaching record for the most "F" words in a season and, as a result, is taken less seriously by the vengeful Big East refs.
I also agree with you that "When reading this site, 95% of the posts (save Paultzman's and JerseyShoreJohnny's contributions) tend to be emotional, non-sensible stuff, especially after loses". Paultzman actually has insight while most of us, including me, have poor eyesight. I hope that once we get on track with our team that 95% of the posts will be generated by emotional highs instead of emitional lows like bipolar depression, intellectual developmental disorder, social communication disorder, and my favorite disorder "social anxiety disorder" that involves an irrational fear of being judged. To wit, stop taking what gibberish I post so personal and serious. I try not to judge people I don't know or have never met and neither should you. (Wink)! I leave you with Proverbs 13:20 "He who walks with wise men will be wise, but the companion of fools will suffer harm," You can tell a lot about a person by the company they keep........even on the internet.
Class of 72
Active member
That's a lot of coaches that lasted longer than they should have lasted.
I don't think any rational fan really thinks Mullin will be fired after 4 seasons but on every fan site dissolution has set in and the subject of this thread had ZERO to do with wanting Mullin fired. NADA amigo.
It was meant to discuss HOW we got to where we are and why. Doc Butler said it best for those thinking that Chris Mullin will be fired any day soon when he said "Never hire someone you can't fire". Pearls of wisdom.
Discussing his $2 million price tag, Slice's half million $ guaranteed deal to be associate head coach as long as Mullin was coach etc., etc., would have been a moot point had Mullin, after being separated from his position from GS in 2009, volunteered to work with Randy Bennett down the road from his home at St. Mary's in Moraga that was a 25 minute ride across the canyon from Danville. I say that sarcastically of course because while some here think we have program envy with Villanova I would have been happy to just be as good as St. Mary's College where Randy Bennett has been coaching for over 17 years with 16 consecutive years of winning an average of over 20 games per year. Yes, sleepy Moraga and St. Mary's with around 2700 students is my envy here in the Big Apple and greatest city on the planet. That we can't replicate that level of success is mind boggling.
BTW, St. Mary's just defeated nationally Gonzaga (Villanova West) at Gonzaga. As Baldi would say on Johnny Jungle "GO GALES!"
Things will change when the old guard takes a step back and new and innovative thinkers start making the decisions as to who coaches at St John's. Not a knock on anyone but this school needed a Steve Pikiell type coach for about 20 years now. Head coaches are either Used car salesman like Lavin or excellent X's and O's guys who surround themselves with good recruiters . It is rare to have both but I am not sure what category Mullin fits in at this young stage of his coaching career. I am not giving up on Coach Mullin just yet as I think there will be a serious change in the staff in off season and that might give us a boost but in the event he steps down ( no chance he gets fired ) then I would sign up for a solid basketball coach who teaches the game of basketball . I think we would all sign up for a well coached team who plays hard year in and year out. Time to win games as opposed to winning the press conference... On to Georgetown!!!!!
There are two main reasons for SJU's failures this season and neither one involves X's and O's.
1 failure to secure a big man
2 decision to have three ineligible players on the bench limiting the roster to ten followed by the defection of Wilson and LoVett's injury
1 failure to secure a big man
2 decision to have three ineligible players on the bench limiting the roster to ten followed by the defection of Wilson and LoVett's injury
beast of the east
Active member
I've thought about this a lot. We need a coach who wins at least 20 games per year, at least 10 in conference, and goes to the tourney something like 14 out of 15 times. That's all we need.
Class of 72
Active member
Things will change when the old guard takes a step back and new and innovative thinkers start making the decisions as to who coaches at St John's. Not a knock on anyone but this school needed a Steve Pikiell type coach for about 20 years now. Head coaches are either Used car salesman like Lavin or excellent X's and O's guys who surround themselves with good recruiters . It is rare to have both but I am not sure what category Mullin fits in at this young stage of his coaching career. I am not giving up on Coach Mullin just yet as I think there will be a serious change in the staff in off season and that might give us a boost but in the event he steps down ( no chance he gets fired ) then I would sign up for a solid basketball coach who teaches the game of basketball . I think we would all sign up for a well coached team who plays hard year in and year out. Time to win games as opposed to winning the press conference... On to Georgetown!!!!!
"Time to win games as opposed to winning the press conference."
CLASSIC Happy!!! CLASSIC!
Class of 72
Active member
In other words a perfect "red" storm. Most of which could have been avoided. The LoVett dilemma was unavoidable and contributes greatly to our latest cunundrum.
Class of 72
Active member
Stop thinking! Your head will explode!
beast of the east
Active member
When Ted WIlliams managed the Senators in the late 60s, reporters said that when your best hitter is your manager, you're in trouble. All we really need is a few Mullin late 3's to win some games.
I work and live near Davidson College in NC and occasionally go to games. Not a fan, but just go for the basketball.
Went to the Davidson - St. Bonaventure game tonight.
What stood out to me after reflecting on St. John's all season is the difference in what a well coached basketball team looks like. Bob McKillop has a great program. They play outstanding team ball. Balls moves crisply, looking to find the man with the best look at the basket. There were no noticeable attempts at trying to make ESPN highlight reel, isolation ball etc. Team shot 43% from 3, 93% for FT line etc. Even St. Bonaventure was well coached. Sure some of these guys may be a step to slow or inch to short, but there were a few guys that clearly could cut it in "power conferences.
On another note, for a 5K arena, Davidson's place is really nice, and seat backs throughout are a pleasure. Couple this with a nice student section who was loud out of the gate. Even St. Bonaventure had a strong fan base that seemed 200+ strong and they were loud from the whistle too. I come up to NY for several St. John's games a year and this experience is night and day. About the only thing better is the dance team and the better music.
For me, it's just clear we need to do better in all areas.... coaching, recruiting, fan base, investment in program or just face reality that this program is living 30+ years on the past.
Went to the Davidson - St. Bonaventure game tonight.
What stood out to me after reflecting on St. John's all season is the difference in what a well coached basketball team looks like. Bob McKillop has a great program. They play outstanding team ball. Balls moves crisply, looking to find the man with the best look at the basket. There were no noticeable attempts at trying to make ESPN highlight reel, isolation ball etc. Team shot 43% from 3, 93% for FT line etc. Even St. Bonaventure was well coached. Sure some of these guys may be a step to slow or inch to short, but there were a few guys that clearly could cut it in "power conferences.
On another note, for a 5K arena, Davidson's place is really nice, and seat backs throughout are a pleasure. Couple this with a nice student section who was loud out of the gate. Even St. Bonaventure had a strong fan base that seemed 200+ strong and they were loud from the whistle too. I come up to NY for several St. John's games a year and this experience is night and day. About the only thing better is the dance team and the better music.
For me, it's just clear we need to do better in all areas.... coaching, recruiting, fan base, investment in program or just face reality that this program is living 30+ years on the past.
Bonaventure's Mark Schmidt is also a very good coach.
http://gobonnies.sbu.edu/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/schmidt_mark00.html?view=bio
beast of the east
Active member
I've met redstormnc in Charlotte a few years ago at our last ncaa appearance. I had 2 of my kids with me. I believe he had his young son. He's a great fan and dad.
First off, fan base is a reflection of success. One that has a heavy dose of students and good age distribution 20s thru 60s reflect a long standing successful program. Our fan base is largely a "I remember when base" When you don't win during a,students 4 years, you've basically lost him. I doubt my son will ever be a fan of his school's teams because it's been a bad years. His student experience doesn't include athletics. My daughter's experience is different , with all tourney years. They still follow their schools. All are (blindly) loyal to st johns bball.
I'm not sure that ball movement and structured offense is a shortage of coaching. Guys like Lovett and Ponds are likely better than Davidson could recruit but are also freelancers. A highly successful program like Duke recruits not only the highest talent but those who will fit into a system. Each kid is pick of the litter.
St johns has been in continual build mode at least since artest. We generally jist recruit the best kids who will come here who possess Big East talent without regard to fit. For mullin so far, it has been rough to just fill a rotation. Lavin inherited an unbalanced roster of all seniors. Roberts Inherited nothing. Jarvis inherited some deft fraschilla recruiting. We haven't had the luxury in a very long time on passing on a big talent because of fit. We have a lot if seats to sell in a market filled with pro sports teams and hundreds of entertainment options. Davidson and st Bonaventure for the most part are the big deal in town.
To build (not rebuild) a younger fan base will require sustained success of ten to twelve years. If we get there, it will happen. It would be really interesting to compare median age of our season ticket holders to theirs. I would guess ours may be well into the 60s. Our loyal base was created in the lapchick-carnesecca years of perennial post season.
Sad truths. Only winning fixes everything you mention - sustained multi year winning - a PROGRAM. whether it ever happens remains to be seen
First off, fan base is a reflection of success. One that has a heavy dose of students and good age distribution 20s thru 60s reflect a long standing successful program. Our fan base is largely a "I remember when base" When you don't win during a,students 4 years, you've basically lost him. I doubt my son will ever be a fan of his school's teams because it's been a bad years. His student experience doesn't include athletics. My daughter's experience is different , with all tourney years. They still follow their schools. All are (blindly) loyal to st johns bball.
I'm not sure that ball movement and structured offense is a shortage of coaching. Guys like Lovett and Ponds are likely better than Davidson could recruit but are also freelancers. A highly successful program like Duke recruits not only the highest talent but those who will fit into a system. Each kid is pick of the litter.
St johns has been in continual build mode at least since artest. We generally jist recruit the best kids who will come here who possess Big East talent without regard to fit. For mullin so far, it has been rough to just fill a rotation. Lavin inherited an unbalanced roster of all seniors. Roberts Inherited nothing. Jarvis inherited some deft fraschilla recruiting. We haven't had the luxury in a very long time on passing on a big talent because of fit. We have a lot if seats to sell in a market filled with pro sports teams and hundreds of entertainment options. Davidson and st Bonaventure for the most part are the big deal in town.
To build (not rebuild) a younger fan base will require sustained success of ten to twelve years. If we get there, it will happen. It would be really interesting to compare median age of our season ticket holders to theirs. I would guess ours may be well into the 60s. Our loyal base was created in the lapchick-carnesecca years of perennial post season.
Sad truths. Only winning fixes everything you mention - sustained multi year winning - a PROGRAM. whether it ever happens remains to be seen
Class of 72
Active member
"To build (not rebuild) a younger fan base will require sustained success of ten to twelve years."
I'm almost sorry I started this thread!
If we need 3 full graduating classes to get a couple of thousand younger fans to become part of the base I may as well sell the houses and move to Cary, NC. By your estimate that will be two coaches away and likely 2 college presidents away from sustained success given our track record.
While success helps it would be nice to keep a coach for 12 or more years to have a little continuity in the program. St. John's record with coaches is more like speed dating. Very little thought goes into it and the expectations are absurd. NYC falls in love with winners fast and many fans were never students. I heartily agree we need to win to build that younger base but in a city of 8 million people and 1 million within a 5 mile radius to the campus I'm not worried that those Asian pharmacy students prefer the library to Carnesecca arena, if they even know where it is. The product never had to be sweet 16 good but it did need to be something worth buying. As I have been saying, at St. John's we have never been able to assemble and market that product without regular recalls. What worried me about hiring Chris Mullin (other than the hire itself) was the impression he gave in interviews that he was coming home from sunny California to save the day and then "pass it on" after SOME success and not necessarily "sustained success. Successful coaches with loyal fans have invested their lives at their respective schools. Like Louie, they developed a cult following all their own and weren't driven out of Dodge by some evil self agrandizing ranchers. Whether it is at Gonzaga, St. Mary's, Davidson, St. Bonaventure, Syracuse or mighty Duke, finding a coach intent on a long term commitment has to be part of the equation. I hope we solve that equation sooner rather than later.