The Incessant St. John's Coaching Debate

Class of 72

Active member
It seems every year since Lou Carnesecca retired a quarter century ago we revert to having the same discussion. I thought this year would be a good year to maybe start a permanent thread to compartmentalize our opinions. So here is my take. Feel free to express your concerns and opinions going further.

The major problem with St. John's basketball has been the provincial mentality of our Vincentian institution.  The long reign of Lou Carnesecca, the local favorite son, was followed by the hiring of his loyal assistant Brian Mahoney who had already proved his inability to run a basketball program in his three losing years at his alma mater Manhattan College.  That provincial mentality led our then short sighted president and A.D. to buck the national trend of searching nationally for the best candidates and again use Manhattan College as our feeder program for basketball coaches with hiring of Fran Fraschilla.  After the firing of Mike Jarvis we again went with a local yokel with the baffling hire of Norm Roberts, an assistant known for recruiting, whose only head coaching experience was an abysmal losing record at his alma mater Queens College.  The only true "national" hire and one with a history of both recruiting and post season success was Steve Lavin who brought St. John's out of the dark ages of college basketball.  The national press was interested once again, the recruiting became national and then,  after 4 seasons of post season appearances his final two seasons were defined by some program supporters who basically put him on probation pending a behind the scenes search for a replacement.  Had that search actually been for the best coach on a national level which New York City fans deserve what do the snakes in the Hillcrest golf course grass cook up?  They again publicly advocate for another local yokel Manhattan College flunkie in their little circle of little minds Steve Masiello. Why? Because in 2014 he guided Manhattan College to a 25 win season and an NCAA invitation.  He stayed their main focus until he surprisingly accepted a head coaching job at the University of South Florida.   However, South Florida later rescinded their offer after it was reported that he had not graduated from the University of Kentucky, as his resume had stated. A sneak and a liar just like his St. John's backers.  Back to Manhattan he went with his tail between his legs and now has settled into a mediocre career there with consecutive losing seasons.  Losing seasons he spared us at St. John's no doubt.
So what do the conspirators do after the Masiello caper? Still intent of bringing down Steve Lavin they turn to yet another "local boy".  Just this time it is St. John's basketball legend Chris Mullin.  The greatest player ever at St, John's.  No one could say no!  Except for some supporters of the program not part of the plot who said "WTF?  Chris has never coached a day in his life!"  He would be like a box of chocolate.  We won't know what the hell we are getting.  Well fellow fans after 3 years since the hire we still don't know and will have to wait until the next signing period to see who comes and who goes and hope that should Chris not succeed we don't return to our provincial roots and hire another local yokel from Iona College because if that were to happen I would seriously doubt that St. John's belongs in the Big East Conference as it would continue the tradition of thinking SMALL.
 
You guys need to stop with this never been a coach so it was a bad move ideology .

Mark Jackson never coached when he took the warriors job and he turned them into a contender.

Steve Kerr never coached a day in his life and took the warriors to the next level.

Jason Kidd went straight from the NBA court to a head coaching gig and he’s doing a good job with the developing Milwaukee bucks.

* People forget that Chris Mullin was offered the NBA head coaching position from the Sacramento Kings as well, so don’t tell me we just did this for nepotistic reasons.

Just give him some time. Sheesh!
 
What’s done is done. Other than debating after games we need to just hope that Mullin changes the dynamic on the staff for next year and hope he has a great year while keeping the core of our team from this year together
 
I look at it like this...

Year One was Chris's redshirt season. Joined the program, but really no opportunity to have a significant impact. It's a learning year to see how things unfold – recruiting, planning, training, coaching, games.

Year Two he's a freshman. He actually gets his hands on the ball; gets his ass handed to him to by more experience coaches; figures out he has some things to learn.

Year Three, we see progress. The work of this first two years is starting show up in recruiting and on the floor. Still room to grow.

We have a long history of giving up on freshmen and sophomores who eventually become pretty good players as juniors and seniors. Same may true of our coach.
 
'72..... I am amused by your repetitive posts and determination to manufacture a coaching controversy.
 
I think most on the board would agree that the onus is on the coaching staff to produce next year and I agree that if and when the school decides a change is needed, it should think nationally in any candidate search. Having said that, I was delighted with the Mullin hire ( also agree that Lavin did a good job of bringing SJU back to prominence from depths of despair). I am still optimistic that this staff can get it done; rooting very hard for Chris & team and, while there are clearly growing pains, prefer to focus on the positive, including constructive criticism where merited.
 
Mullin has 2-1/2 years coaching experience.
 
Yes,time. I think 1 more yr is enough time if no results next yr he has to go. Unless there is a gift from the gods this season must be considered a failure.No if we win 8 games in confr ,he gets more ,
 
Lavin always seemed more interested in Bway, his Makers Mark and hanging with Keady. Missed out a lot on local kids because he never went to their games . Brought in Obepka and Rysherd Jordan , 2 Head Cases and hardly worth the drama . He did great recruiting in the first year and rode that through year 5 . Also , a lousy Bench Coach . Plus , outside his control but, he lost a Year with his Prostate cancer .
 
'72..... I am amused by your repetitive posts and determination to manufacture a coaching controversy.

Are you SERIOUS??? This is the only post I've ever started on the subject of St. John's coaching (fiascos). This is something you should have done as a mod in a sticky so fans can go to one place to vent instead of after every loss.;)

OTIS, I don't have "manufacture" anything! If you don't think anything I said was true then point to your facts that dispute what I say. Make your case like any other poster would. You are a big "sources" guy. You can PM me and I will give you sources. I will give you a few names YOU are well aware of. I will give you page and verse. If you would like, I will share redacted emails I received from coaches who were harassed by a couple of people who you may be familiar with and who were overly intrusive in the affairs of the athletic department. Redacted because they were classless and insensitive. We have a "history" at St. John's when it comes to coaches. It is not a pretty history and when the culture of incompetence is finally addressed openly maybe there can be some healing for all those fans that have grown old being disappointed. While programs such as Xavier, Butler and even Providence have had a history of successful coaches and the branches of that success span many other coaches, St. John's has been a career ending destination.
The bottom line is this - when you hire the best you get results. TCU, an annual bottom dweller is now nationally ranked. Why?
Xavier is successful every year and they have changed coaches as much as St. John's. Why?
This post is meant to address those questions.
 
Lavin always seemed more interested in Bway, his Makers Mark and hanging with Keady. Missed out a lot on local kids because he never went to their games . Brought in Obepka and Rysherd Jordan , 2 Head Cases and hardly worth the drama . He did great recruiting in the first year and rode that through year 5 . Also , a lousy Bench Coach . Plus , outside his control but, he lost a Year with his Prostate cancer .

Interesting observation! You must think St. John's lure and attraction of the opportunity to coach at St. John's was the bright lights Union Turnpike. For a program that boasts of the skyline of New York City to attract the attention of recruits your chastisement of Lavin and Keady seems moronic. Lavin lived in the West Village and coach Keady met his wife in "the city". St. John's made the bright lights of Broadway and a housing stipend to live in the city the centerpiece of their package to hire Lavin. Do you know where Chris Mullin and his sidekick Mitch Richmond spend most of their "off time". Hint....it is not Flushing.;) Yes, he missed out on a few local talented kids but mostly because St. John's was outbid ($) for their services. You see Slyfox at St. John's we just don't have that much under-the-table cash to pay handlers. He did ok recruiting but nothing special I agree but they targeted players that were long and athletic who rarely embarrassed themselves in games. That 7 players originally targeted by Tony Chiles went on to play for Chris Mullin may just be a coincidence. Yes, Lavin was just an average bench coach just as Mullin appears to be but being successful is about getting the players more than coaching. Hopefully Chris Mullin both retains his players and signs talented new players because if he doesn't the coaching carousel which is the subject of this post will remain as mythical as Sisyphos who was being punished for his self-aggrandizing craftiness and deceitfulness. We've had more than our share in the likes of Mike Jarvis, Steve Lavin and hopefully not Chris Mullin. I hope that road ends next year.
 
Lavin always seemed more interested in Bway, his Makers Mark and hanging with Keady. Missed out a lot on local kids because he never went to their games . Brought in Obepka and Rysherd Jordan , 2 Head Cases and hardly worth the drama . He did great recruiting in the first year and rode that through year 5 . Also , a lousy Bench Coach . Plus , outside his control but, he lost a Year with his Prostate cancer .

You're the same guy who said a coach shouldn't be responsible for what he team does on the court or something of that nature, per doc butler's thread after the Villanova game.

I see you've ditched your westchesterjoe moniker, but your posts still lack logic.
 
We talk about this just about every single day. Why because as you get older and dementia sets in, long term memory stays intact and you can't remember if you even took your meds today.
 
'72..... I am amused by your repetitive posts and determination to manufacture a coaching controversy.

Are you SERIOUS??? This is the only post I've ever started on the subject of St. John's coaching (fiascos). This is something you should have done as a mod in a sticky so fans can go to one place to vent instead of after every loss.;)

OTIS, I don't have "manufacture" anything! If you don't think anything I said was true then point to your facts that dispute what I say. Make your case like any other poster would. You are a big "sources" guy. You can PM me and I will give you sources. I will give you a few names YOU are well aware of. I will give you page and verse. If you would like, I will share redacted emails I received from coaches who were harassed by a couple of people who you may be familiar with and who were overly intrusive in the affairs of the athletic department. Redacted because they were classless and insensitive. We have a "history" at St. John's when it comes to coaches. It is not a pretty history and when the culture of incompetence is finally addressed openly maybe there can be some healing for all those fans that have grown old being disappointed. While programs such as Xavier, Butler and even Providence have had a history of successful coaches and the branches of that success span many other coaches, St. John's has been a career ending destination.
The bottom line is this - when you hire the best you get results. TCU, an annual bottom dweller is now nationally ranked. Why?
Xavier is successful every year and they have changed coaches as much as St. John's. Why?
This post is meant to address those questions.

Pretty much everything you are saying above is how it went down. terrible way for a school to run a program.
 
We talk about this just about every single day.

And, if we didn't what would we be talking about? While you may have life experiences as a coach and mastermind of the back-door cut, the give-and-go, collapsing zones, screen-and-rolls, triple-threat positioning, etc., some of us are just fans who think that the buck eventually always stops at the coach's door.
 
We talk about this just about every single day.

And, if we didn't what would we be talking about? While you may have life experiences as a coach and mastermind of the back-door cut, the give-and-go, collapsing zones, screen-and-rolls, triple-threat positioning, etc., some of us are just fans who think that the buck eventually always stops at the coach's door.

you know what I mean.. We run the history from Carnesecca through Mullin coaching, stop and criticize all of them at some point, and nothing new is gained. Lou couldn't coach, mahoney couldn't coach, Fraschilla was a dog, Jarvis a bigger dog, Norm an inept boob, Lavin a lazy pretty boy, and Mullin a $2 million entry level hire. That about covers it, except for nuanced crap.
 
Only hire worth talking about. His assistant "Michelle Rice" part of package;


[attachment]image.jpeg[/attachment]
 
Only hire worth talking about. His assistant "Michelle Rice" part of package;


[attachment]image.jpeg[/attachment]

Am I missing something? Are walking about the same Mike Rice who was 16-38 in the Big East at Rutgers, with no improvement from year 1-3, even if he did secure 2 NCAA and one NIT at Robert Morris (auto NCAA bids in mid major conferences).

Why should we hire a guy who is cut out to be a head coach, at least by resume, to coach this team instead of the coach we currently have, at least to hire him to run the show as an assistant?

I suggest we hire three assistants - Rice to fire basektballs at players heads, Mike Doherty to melt down and turn a top 5 team into a 10-26 one, and Fran Fraschilla as a motivational speaker to drop his pants to get players going - umm I didn't say that.

If this experiment ends prematurely, let's just go out an hire Tim Cluess. We couldn't do much better at a reasonable salary, would save a ton of dough, and could do a heck of a lot worse than a former Johnnie who for once would really consider this his dream job.
 
Only hire worth talking about. His assistant "Michelle Rice" part of package;


[attachment]image.jpeg[/attachment]

Am I missing something? Are walking about the same Mike Rice who was 16-38 in the Big East at Rutgers, with no improvement from year 1-3, even if he did secure 2 NCAA and one NIT at Robert Morris (auto NCAA bids in mid major conferences).

Why should we hire a guy who is cut out to be a head coach, at least by resume, to coach this team instead of the coach we currently have, at least to hire him to run the show as an assistant?

I suggest we hire three assistants - Rice to fire basektballs at players heads, Mike Doherty to melt down and turn a top 5 team into a 10-26 one, and Fran Fraschilla as a motivational speaker to drop his pants to get players going - umm I didn't say that.

If this experiment ends prematurely, let's just go out an hire Tim Cluess. We couldn't do much better at a reasonable salary, would save a ton of dough, and could do a heck of a lot worse than a former Johnnie who for once would really consider this his dream job.

I think Paultzman is referring to the inventor of the game James Naismith.:D ;)
He turned his wife Maude into a Michelle Rice to get your juices flowing.:p
 
Back
Top