St. John's All-Time Starting 5 / The TABLET

[quote="Ray Morgan" post=392424]The absence of video and complete statistics for any former St. John's player before the 1980s makes this a more difficult task I did not get to see Tony Jackson, and Ellis only as a pro.

Wouldn't it be great if the Athletic Department dug into the depths of their film and video library and put what they have from the 50s, 60s and 70s on Youtube. Or sell a series of videos to benefit students in need or another good cause.

Slam dunks:
Mullin, Berry and Jackson. Yes, all on the final 4 team. But that's an indication of their greatness. Both Berry and Jackson had senior seasons that were absolutely outstanding.

Since the team needs a natural center, I would have Leroy Ellis over George Johnson. George was great, but was forced to play center since no one else could. Then again, I only saw Ellis as a pro.
I did see Sonny Dove in college. No argument there. No real SF, but that's OK. Honorable mention to Sealy, who did so many things well that there would be no real drop-off with the late, great Malik in the game. Plus he was a really good man. I would also want Mel Davis and his ferocity off the bench, and Billy Schaeffer. Just a great shooter, scorer and clutch player. It would be great to see the program's 2 greatest shooters In Billy and Chris on the court at the same time, with Mark Jackson or Erick Barkley finding the open man.

Sad part is the top 5 all played before 1990. Even adding Barkley or Artest, we are only taken to 1999. The team is due for a superstar.[/quote]
A while back I suggested to Mike Cragg that they acknowledge former players in attendance by showing video highlights so that current fans get a sense of the tradition and how good some of these players were
 
[quote="Knight" post=392427]What about Billy Paultzman at center? 2years , 12pts, 10.6 rebs.[/quote]
He is ineligible due to conflict of interest as a regular poster on Redmen.com
 
Missing three Haggerty Award winners who were career double/double players--Jackson, Ellis and Davis. Maybe the writer is only rating those he "saw" which he should have qualified in the article.
For the women's top 5, he took the "easy" road and picked the top 5 scorers from the media guide.
 
[quote="BrooklynRed" post=392462]Missing three Haggerty Award winners who were career double/double players--Jackson, Ellis and Davis. Maybe the writer is only rating those he "saw" which he should have qualified in the article.
For the women's top 5, he took the "easy" road and picked the top 5 scorers from the media guide.[/quote]

How about an All-Time Top 10?:

Mark J./ Barkley
Mullin / Schaeffer
Dove / T. Jackson
Berry / Johnson
Ellis / Wennington

Runner-ups: Sealy / Davis / K. McIntyre / Ponds.

I'm sure I'm missing other worthy candidates.
 
Section3 Wrote: Ray Morgan wrote: The absence of video and complete statistics for any former St. John's player before the 1980s makes this a more difficult task I did not get to see Tony Jackson, and Ellis only as a pro.

Wouldn't it be great if the Athletic Department dug into the depths of their film and video library and put what they have from the 50s, 60s and 70s on Youtube. Or sell a series of videos to benefit students in need or another good cause.

Slam dunks:
Mullin, Berry and Jackson. Yes, all on the final 4 team. But that's an indication of their greatness. Both Berry and Jackson had senior seasons that were absolutely outstanding.

Since the team needs a natural center, I would have Leroy Ellis over George Johnson. George was great, but was forced to play center since no one else could. Then again, I only saw Ellis as a pro.
I did see Sonny Dove in college. No argument there. No real SF, but that's OK. Honorable mention to Sealy, who did so many things well that there would be no real drop-off with the late, great Malik in the game. Plus he was a really good man. I would also want Mel Davis and his ferocity off the bench, and Billy Schaeffer. Just a great shooter, scorer and clutch player. It would be great to see the program's 2 greatest shooters In Billy and Chris on the court at the same time, with Mark Jackson or Erick Barkley finding the open man.

Sad part is the top 5 all played before 1990. Even adding Barkley or Artest, we are only taken to 1999. The team is due for a superstar.

A while back I suggested to Mike Cragg that they acknowledge former players in attendance by showing video highlights so that current fans get a sense of the tradition and how good some of these players were

Well since Section3 pointed out that after 1999 there was no one in the conversation for the SJU All-Time Staring Five I thought I would contribute the All-Time Starting Five (Plus back ups and honorable mentions) for the 21st Century (starting in 2001). I thought this would give some of our younger posters the opportunity to weigh in here about players they actually saw.

21st Century SJU All-Stars

G Marcus Hatten / Shamorie Ponds
G D'Angelo Harrison / Justin Simon
SF Sir Dominic Pointer / D.J. Kennedy
PF Maurice Harkless / Justin Brownlee
C Lamont Hamilton / Vacant

Honorable Mentions: Paris Horne, Dwight Hardy, Marvin Clark, Anthony Glover and Daryl (Showtime) Hill

One thing that struck me about the 21st Century SJU teams was that we were definitely more Guard talented than anywhere else on the court.
 
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[quote="Chicago Days" post=392463][quote="BrooklynRed" post=392462]Missing three Haggerty Award winners who were career double/double players--Jackson, Ellis and Davis. Maybe the writer is only rating those he "saw" which he should have qualified in the article.
For the women's top 5, he took the "easy" road and picked the top 5 scorers from the media guide.[/quote]
Nm
How about an All-Time Top 10?:

Mark J./ Barkley
Mullin / Schaeffer
Dove / T. Jackson
Berry / Johnson
Ellis / Wennington

Runner-ups: Sealy / Davis / K. McIntyre / Ponds.

I'm sure I'm missing other worthy candidates.[/quote] Artest
 
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[quote="richard A Steinfeld" post=392471][quote="Chicago Days" post=392463][quote="BrooklynRed" post=392462]Missing three Haggerty Award winners who were career double/double players--Jackson, Ellis and Davis. Maybe the writer is only rating those he "saw" which he should have qualified in the article.
For the women's top 5, he took the "easy" road and picked the top 5 scorers from the media guide.[/quote]
Nm
How about an All-Time Top 10?:

Mark J./ Barkley
Mullin / Schaeffer
Dove / T. Jackson
Berry / Johnson
Ellis / Wennington

Runner-ups: Sealy / Davis / K. McIntyre / Ponds.

I'm sure I'm missing other worthy candidates.[/quote] Artest[/quote]

Had him on a draft list and forgot to add him. Yes! No doubt. Lol.
 
[quote="ghostzapper" post=392469]

Well since Section3 pointed out that after 1999 there was no one in the conversation for the SJU All-Time Staring Five I thought I would contribute the All-Time Starting Five (Plus back ups and honorable mentions) for the 21st Century (starting in 2001). I thought this would give some of our younger posters the opportunity to weigh in here about players they actually saw.

21st Century SJU All-Stars

G Marcus Hatten / Shamorie Pomds
G D'Angelo Harrison / Justin Simon
SF Sir Dominic Pointer / D.J. Kennedy
PF Maurice Harkless / Justin Brownlee
C Lamont Hamilton / Vacant

Honorable Mentions: Paris Horne, Dwight Hardy, Marvin Clark, Anthony Glover and Daryl (Showtime) Hill

One thing that struck me about the 21st Century SJU teams was that we were definitely more Guard talented than anywhere else on the court.[/quote]

Harkless is the obvious starter at PF, but Brownlee (!!) over Glover? No way, not in any universe. No reason to leave the other C spot vacant, Obekpa would be an obvious fit there.

I might take Dewey Buckets over D Lo. Showtime would have been in the conversation but for the knee injury, that was a tragedy.

And Marvin Clank on any list? C'mon. Great kid, but shouldn't be sniffing this conversation
 
Artest, Zendon Hamilton and Sealy over Ponds and Wennington unless your doing it strictly by position.
 
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Chicago Days wrote:
How about an All-Time Top 10?:

Mark J./ Barkley
Mullin / Schaeffer
Dove / T. Jackson
Berry / Johnson
Ellis / Wennington

Runner-ups: Sealy / Davis / K. McIntyre / Ponds.


Bill Wennington is by all accounts a great guy and had a very nice pro career but was mostly a complimentary player with Johnnies. Averaged 8 pts and 5 rebs. over his 4 year career and best year was 12.5 pts and 6 rebounds.

I would put Malik on top ten list at SF and move either Dove or George Johnson to center where both of them played for much of their Johnny career.
 
Totally disagree Tony Jackson should be there as well as Leroy Ellis saw Sonny Dove many better he could be # 7-10 no way he is over no over Malik neither is George just my O Their was also the guard when we played Ohio State
Forgot his name but I think he made the NBA if I am not mistaken argument for him to be in
 
[quote="Section3" post=392456][quote="Ray Morgan" post=392424]The absence of video and complete statistics for any former St. John's player before the 1980s makes this a more difficult task I did not get to see Tony Jackson, and Ellis only as a pro.

Wouldn't it be great if the Athletic Department dug into the depths of their film and video library and put what they have from the 50s, 60s and 70s on Youtube. Or sell a series of videos to benefit students in need or another good cause.

Slam dunks:
Mullin, Berry and Jackson. Yes, all on the final 4 team. But that's an indication of their greatness. Both Berry and Jackson had senior seasons that were absolutely outstanding.

Since the team needs a natural center, I would have Leroy Ellis over George Johnson. George was great, but was forced to play center since no one else could. Then again, I only saw Ellis as a pro.
I did see Sonny Dove in college. No argument there. No real SF, but that's OK. Honorable mention to Sealy, who did so many things well that there would be no real drop-off with the late, great Malik in the game. Plus he was a really good man. I would also want Mel Davis and his ferocity off the bench, and Billy Schaeffer. Just a great shooter, scorer and clutch player. It would be great to see the program's 2 greatest shooters In Billy and Chris on the court at the same time, with Mark Jackson or Erick Barkley finding the open man.

Sad part is the top 5 all played before 1990. Even adding Barkley or Artest, we are only taken to 1999. The team is due for a superstar.[/quote]
A while back I suggested to Mike Cragg that they acknowledge former players in attendance by showing video highlights so that current fans get a sense of the tradition and how good some of these players were[/quote]

That is a great idea. Did Mike Cragg respond?
 
[quote="Ray Morgan" post=392496][quote="Section3" post=392456][quote="Ray Morgan" post=392424]The absence of video and complete statistics for any former St. John's player before the 1980s makes this a more difficult task I did not get to see Tony Jackson, and Ellis only as a pro.

Wouldn't it be great if the Athletic Department dug into the depths of their film and video library and put what they have from the 50s, 60s and 70s on Youtube. Or sell a series of videos to benefit students in need or another good cause.

Slam dunks:
Mullin, Berry and Jackson. Yes, all on the final 4 team. But that's an indication of their greatness. Both Berry and Jackson had senior seasons that were absolutely outstanding.

Since the team needs a natural center, I would have Leroy Ellis over George Johnson. George was great, but was forced to play center since no one else could. Then again, I only saw Ellis as a pro.
I did see Sonny Dove in college. No argument there. No real SF, but that's OK. Honorable mention to Sealy, who did so many things well that there would be no real drop-off with the late, great Malik in the game. Plus he was a really good man. I would also want Mel Davis and his ferocity off the bench, and Billy Schaeffer. Just a great shooter, scorer and clutch player. It would be great to see the program's 2 greatest shooters In Billy and Chris on the court at the same time, with Mark Jackson or Erick Barkley finding the open man.

Sad part is the top 5 all played before 1990. Even adding Barkley or Artest, we are only taken to 1999. The team is due for a superstar.[/quote]
A while back I suggested to Mike Cragg that they acknowledge former players in attendance by showing video highlights so that current fans get a sense of the tradition and how good some of these players were[/quote]
Yes...acknowledged fact that they should recognize former players and noted fact that unless they get tix thru ticket office, they have no idea that they are at the game. Didn’t comment on my suggestion

That is a great idea. Did Mike Cragg respond?[/quote]
 
[quote="lawmanfan" post=392489][quote="ghostzapper" post=392469]

Well since Section3 pointed out that after 1999 there was no one in the conversation for the SJU All-Time Staring Five I thought I would contribute the All-Time Starting Five (Plus back ups and honorable mentions) for the 21st Century (starting in 2001). I thought this would give some of our younger posters the opportunity to weigh in here about players they actually saw.

21st Century SJU All-Stars

G Marcus Hatten / Shamorie Pomds
G D'Angelo Harrison / Justin Simon
SF Sir Dominic Pointer / D.J. Kennedy
PF Maurice Harkless / Justin Brownlee
C Lamont Hamilton / Vacant

Honorable Mentions: Paris Horne, Dwight Hardy, Marvin Clark, Anthony Glover and Daryl (Showtime) Hill

One thing that struck me about the 21st Century SJU teams was that we were definitely more Guard talented than anywhere else on the court.[/quote]

Harkless is the obvious starter at PF, but Brownlee (!!) over Glover? No way, not in any universe. No reason to leave the other C spot vacant, Obekpa would be an obvious fit there.

I might take Dewey Buckets over D Lo. Showtime would have been in the conversation but for the knee injury, that was a tragedy.

And Marvin Clank on any list? C'mon. Great kid, but shouldn't be sniffing this conversation[/quote]

I was thinking Justin Burrell over Obepka. Always felt like Burrell never developed though
 
lawmanfan wrote: Harkless is the obvious starter at PF, but Brownlee (!!) over Glover? No way, not in any universe. No reason to leave the other C spot vacant, Obekpa would be an obvious fit there.

I might take Dewey Buckets over D Lo. Showtime would have been in the conversation but for the knee injury, that was a tragedy.

And Marvin Clank on any list? C'mon. Great kid, but shouldn't be sniffing this conversation

All very valid points lawmanfan but taking them one by one I will respond:

1) You are right Obekpa would be an obvious choice as the number two Center, but given how he got suspended for smoking weed right before our big NCAA tournament game and hung the team out to dry, I could not in good conscience mention his name for anything. He was a bit of a knucklehead before the suspension anyway IMO.

2) You are probably right about Glover over Brownlee but Brownlee's last year was terrific and the team accomplished so much out of nowhere. They were derailed only because of DJ Kennedy's season ending knee injury or they may have gone on to greater glory.

3) I chose D Lo over Hardy based on his total body of work. Hardy had one amazing season, but D Lo stayed four years, is the program's third all time leading scorer and gets points from me for raising the level of his character significantly while he was here. Besides all that, he still is a big advocate for the program and like most of us seems like he is definitely a big SJU fan.

4) As you said Marvin Clark was a great kid. He also had a great personal back story and while certainly disappointing at times on the court (wow he could not stay out of foul trouble) represented the school well on and off the court character wise. I could have left him off the honorable mention list but character counts for me so I threw his name in.
 
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[quote="ghostzapper" post=392547]lawmanfan wrote: Harkless is the obvious starter at PF, but Brownlee (!!) over Glover? No way, not in any universe. No reason to leave the other C spot vacant, Obekpa would be an obvious fit there.

I might take Dewey Buckets over D Lo. Showtime would have been in the conversation but for the knee injury, that was a tragedy.

And Marvin Clank on any list? C'mon. Great kid, but shouldn't be sniffing this conversation

All very valid points lawmanfan but taking them one by one I will respond:

1) You are right Obekpa would be an obvious choice as the number two Center, but given how he got suspended for smoking weed right before our big NCAA tournament game and hung the team out to dry, I could not in conscience mention his name for anything. He was a bit of a knucklehead before the suspension anyway IMO.

2) You are probably right about Glover over Brownlee but Brownlee's last year was terrific and the team accomplished so much out of nowhere. They were derailed only because of DJ Kennedy's season ending knee injury or they may have gone on to greater glory.

3) I chose D Lo over Hardy based on his total body of work. Hardy had one amazing season, but D Lo stayed four years, is the program's third all time leading scorer and gets points from me for raising the level of his character significantly while he was here. Besides all that, he still is a big advocate for the program and like most of us seems like he is definitely a big SJU fan.

4) As you said Marvin Clark was a great kid. He also had a great personal back story and while certainly disappointing at times on the court (wow he could not stay out of foul trouble) represented the school well on and off the court character wise. I could have left him off the honorable mention list but character counts for me so I threw his name in.[/quote]

Very fair and very consistent. Thanks. My only quibble would be that you can't elevate Brownlee and his one year over Glover but then credit D Lo for tenure in picking him over Hardy.

D Lo is probably the player on whom my opinion changed the most over time. He started as a selfish, difficult, team-killing ballhog. But he ended as a warrior. Probably the one good thing Lavin accomplished at SJU.
 
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Tony Jackson, Chris Mullin and Walter Berry were all first team All Americans. That should make them locks. After that it's a crap shoot.
 
Here is what Wikipedia shows:
First team All Americans were : John Keenan (1911), Harry Boykoff (1943), Mullin (1985), Berry (1986);
Second team All Americans were; Zawoluk (1952), Allan Seiden (1959), Tony Jackson (1960-61), Sonny Dove (1967), Mullin (1984), Mark Jackson (1987), Malik Sealy (1992).

Pretty elite group when it comes to all-time great Johnnies.
 
He’s almost always forgotten but, Reggie Carter was a Second Team AP and UPI All American in 1980. That alone has to get him on , at least , the Second 10 of All Time Best .
 
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