Some Assessments & Expectations

docbutler

Member
The last game I attended prior to last night's opening exhibition, was the SJU vrs. Robert Morris debacle...one of the worst coached games it has ever been my displeasure to witness. The game at Carnesseca Arena, that I watched last night, was barely any better. In the absent roar of this empty gym, I watched a division II ballclub, a team giving away considerable talent and size to it's opponent, give them all they could handle for 40 minutes. Only the depth and talent gap of St. John's served to leave us with a victory. Humbolt State should leave with their heads held high, as they left a ton of heart on the floor.
For St. John's it was pretty much a thank you to Chris Obepka that we left this game with a W. No thanks however, to Coach Lavin, whose failure to understand the dynamics in this contest almost rivaled the dreadful Robert Morris game. Apparently, completely unnoticed was the speed differential between the HB St. guards and that of our own. Insisting on above the key defense for most of the game, we relentlessly pressured their guards 25 feet from the basket...despite the fact that both their guards were considerably faster than Jlo and Rasheed....a move that led to breakdowns in our defense for most of the game. The helter skelter nature of our defense created continuous mismatches, blown assignments, fouls, open jump shots, and layups for our opponents. Why does Coach Lavin insist on this idea of defense? When the circumference defense if penetrated any skilled guard...NOTHING good can happen. Someone will always be out of position as a result. Particularly when the team is spread and unavailable to provide real help without leaving someone completely open. Chris Obepka, who blocked 11 shots last night in a wonderful effort cannot, as one man, provide enough band aids to cover all the defensive errors and opportunities provided to the opponent. We never really tested the HB St. ability to hit the three point shot. It looked to me like there was only one player who could really hurt us that way. Yet still, we left the middle open and the opportunities to break us down, throughout the game. Would you believe that we were beat over the top-down court- for fast breaks, at least 4, maybe five times in this game. All thing being equal, Humbolt St. was quicker and faster...and we completely failed to address that as an issue.
The offense in the first half was also pathetic. Much like the Robert Morris game, we failed to exploit our superior size under the boards. For those of you who haven't seen Chris Obepka play yet, you are indeed in store for a very pleasant surprise. This young man has obviously worked very hard in the off season. The box score will tell you that he hit 8 of 9 from the free throw line. What is not discernible from that stat is the form and ease with which he made them. No one will be deliberately sending our big man to the line this year. He is a new man. He is moving like a gazelle, has a new found understanding of the game, and will be a force to contend with for our opponents. HB State certainly had no answer for him. It looked like he could score at will. It also looked like no one on our coaching staff noticed this. A team, much like Robert Morris, whose butts we should've kicked black and blue under the boards, hardly paid for this weakness at all. This might have been a formidable option if our guards weren't busy concentrating on their one on one games...an option that left us looking inferior for the first 40% of this game.. Branch's brief minutes on the court were somewhat wasted because everyone else apparently forgot that he is a playmaker, and needs the ball to do his thing. Imagine...someone who actually wants to make a play with an assist in it? Poor ball handling, charges, poor shot choice, lack of spacing, poor ball movement, among other things...led to a deficit at half time...quite criminal all things being considered. Chris Jones had some decent minutes...and yes, DeAngelo finally found his mojo somewhere near halftime...but for the most part it was a lackluster performance for the entire squad except for Obepka. Sir Dom had some nice on court minutes with ball hawking and a few nice drives. But his jump shot still looks like someone doing orthopedic exercises, something I had hoped he might have worked on in the off season. The big kid from Europe (sorry, I still don't know his name) is an unaggressive work in progress and not a factor. Phil Greene was a no show. There is already a thread here regarding Rashid...I suggest you read it. His contribution of 19 points was also surrounded by an uninspired floor game. I would suggest that teams, eyeing the Red Storm as an opponent, will direct their efforts at getting Obepka out of the game. Given his aggressive nature as a defensive player, this might be much easier than you think. Without him, we will become Humbolt St.....just slower.
 
I can't disagree with anything you wrote, but the tone seems too negative. Humboldt State was a well-coached veteran team with some very good players. They had a game under their belts heading in as well, and this is the type of team that gives us trouble. This was also SJU's first game, so we have to keep that in mind. I think we could have run them out of the gym (like last year) if they pressed and ran all game.

I am not ready to anoint Amar a player, but I think you are short-changing him. He's a freshman and it was his first game. He's not only adjusting to playing college ball, but to the American game as well. That won't happen overnight. The poor kid is also going to see time at 2-3 very different positions, and that can't help speed the process.

I agree teams will try to take it at CO and that will kill us. We need 30+ mpg from him. He is a smart kid, though, and I think if the staff approached it from a strategy point of view, he'd buy in more and not let other teams get the better of him.

This season will be defined by whether or not someone can step up at the four. If someone can just hold the ground and not lose games, we can make the dance. If someone (maybe Dom, maybe Balamou, or maybe all four guards playing at once) can star we can win a few in the tournament.
 
Doc, couldn't read your whole post. What I did see and couldn't agree with more is the helter skeltor perimeter defense we play. We can be as aggressive as possible in the back court but when its time to play half court D we need to contain. Waaaay to much penetration which leads to waaaaay to much scrambling which leads to waaaay to many offensive rebounds. Obekpa and Jones should NEVER play D 20 feet from the hoop.
 
Good points as always Marillac. I may be wrong though, but I believe Humbolt is predicted to finish last in their conference. I also think Amar is probably too slow for Div. I. Who knows...I've been wrong before. Good luck brother!
 
Good points as always Marillac. I may be wrong though, but I believe Humbolt is predicted to finish last in their conference. I also think Amar is probably too slow for Div. I. Who knows...I've been wrong before. Good luck brother!

He is really slow. The biggest positive I took from watching him was that he is big enough to play the four and even some five (in college). He doesn't have the quickness to play the three.

I think Humboldt was last in the conference this past season due to injuries, but this version looks much better. They looked like a solid, well-coached team. We aren't...and other than Harrison and Branch, I'm not sure how many other guys would really respond to playing a structured system. Dom would get eaten alive by a coach like Beilein.

Defense is a huge issue. They overplay everything in the half court. Our guards get beaten too easily and then then everyone collapses too far which leaves shooters wide open. I don't know what they are trying to do with the pressure, but it isn't enough.
 
The last game I attended prior to last night's opening exhibition, was the SJU vrs. Robert Morris debacle...one of the worst coached games it has ever been my displeasure to witness. The game at Carnesseca Arena, that I watched last night, was barely any better. In the absent roar of this empty gym, I watched a division II ballclub, a team giving away considerable talent and size to it's opponent, give them all they could handle for 40 minutes. Only the depth and talent gap of St. John's served to leave us with a victory. Humbolt State should leave with their heads held high, as they left a ton of heart on the floor.
For St. John's it was pretty much a thank you to Chris Obepka that we left this game with a W. No thanks however, to Coach Lavin, whose failure to understand the dynamics in this contest almost rivaled the dreadful Robert Morris game. Apparently, completely unnoticed was the speed differential between the HB St. guards and that of our own. Insisting on above the key defense for most of the game, we relentlessly pressured their guards 25 feet from the basket...despite the fact that both their guards were considerably faster than Jlo and Rasheed....a move that led to breakdowns in our defense for most of the game. The helter skelter nature of our defense created continuous mismatches, blown assignments, fouls, open jump shots, and layups for our opponents. Why does Coach Lavin insist on this idea of defense? When the circumference defense if penetrated any skilled guard...NOTHING good can happen. Someone will always be out of position as a result. Particularly when the team is spread and unavailable to provide real help without leaving someone completely open. Chris Obepka, who blocked 11 shots last night in a wonderful effort cannot, as one man, provide enough band aids to cover all the defensive errors and opportunities provided to the opponent. We never really tested the HB St. ability to hit the three point shot. It looked to me like there was only one player who could really hurt us that way. Yet still, we left the middle open and the opportunities to break us down, throughout the game. Would you believe that we were beat over the top-down court- for fast breaks, at least 4, maybe five times in this game. All thing being equal, Humbolt St. was quicker and faster...and we completely failed to address that as an issue.
The offense in the first half was also pathetic. Much like the Robert Morris game, we failed to exploit our superior size under the boards. For those of you who haven't seen Chris Obepka play yet, you are indeed in store for a very pleasant surprise. This young man has obviously worked very hard in the off season. The box score will tell you that he hit 8 of 9 from the free throw line. What is not discernible from that stat is the form and ease with which he made them. No one will be deliberately sending our big man to the line this year. He is a new man. He is moving like a gazelle, has a new found understanding of the game, and will be a force to contend with for our opponents. HB State certainly had no answer for him. It looked like he could score at will. It also looked like no one on our coaching staff noticed this. A team, much like Robert Morris, whose butts we should've kicked black and blue under the boards, hardly paid for this weakness at all. This might have been a formidable option if our guards weren't busy concentrating on their one on one games...an option that left us looking inferior for the first 40% of this game.. Branch's brief minutes on the court were somewhat wasted because everyone else apparently forgot that he is a playmaker, and needs the ball to do his thing. Imagine...someone who actually wants to make a play with an assist in it? Poor ball handling, charges, poor shot choice, lack of spacing, poor ball movement, among other things...led to a deficit at half time...quite criminal all things being considered. Chris Jones had some decent minutes...and yes, DeAngelo finally found his mojo somewhere near halftime...but for the most part it was a lackluster performance for the entire squad except for Obepka. Sir Dom had some nice on court minutes with ball hawking and a few nice drives. But his jump shot still looks like someone doing orthopedic exercises, something I had hoped he might have worked on in the off season. The big kid from Europe (sorry, I still don't know his name) is an unaggressive work in progress and not a factor. Phil Greene was a no show. There is already a thread here regarding Rashid...I suggest you read it. His contribution of 19 points was also surrounded by an uninspired floor game. I would suggest that teams, eyeing the Red Storm as an opponent, will direct their efforts at getting Obepka out of the game. Given his aggressive nature as a defensive player, this might be much easier than you think. Without him, we will become Humbolt St.....just slower.

+1000 to that bolded point
 
With the Mets and Jets, I had two sport seasons end very early.
If we had lost this exhibition, my only hope for a few months of active sporting Interest this year would have vanished, along with my effort to control my blood pressure and stomach acid.
 
I so look forward to reading do butlers commentary after games as he writes so analytically and without emotion. However , lately , being the last few years I have come to dread reading his summary as it is just too painful. This was a great post by doc who took the time and effort to breakdown what he saw for all fans especially those who live far and cannot attend. His analysis was again everything I hoped I would not read which was then confirmed by marillac in this thread who writes we are not a well coached team. Their two posts speak volumes about the state of the men's program as does class of 72s in the Adonis thread.
Very sad for the older fans like myself who yearn for a return to the days we were relevant on the national scene and perhaps more so for the younger fans who have never been to MSG for a sold out game on national tv when there were 19000 redmen fans in attendance and 561 opposing fans cheering on the home team in a game that meant something in the national rankings.
 
Heck, redmannorth....Try and enjoy whatever we get this year. Next year we graduate practically our entire ballclub.
 
After this whole Thomas fiasco ( the player I was looking forward most to seeing ) I have withdrawn any expectations for the season. Not saying anything negative and it doesn't mean I'm down on our remaking kids. I just don't have any expectations good or bad
 
I think that everyone just needs to relax a little. All of this is coming from one exhibition game, and the first one of the year nonetheless. And lets not forget that an exhibition is nothing more than a glorified scrimmage. It means absolutely nothing.

Sure, it would have been nice to 'win' by 30+ points, but it didn't happen. I just don't see how people can say that an exhibition will dictate how our season will go.
 
I think that everyone just needs to relax a little. All of this is coming from one exhibition game, and the first one of the year nonetheless. And lets not forget that an exhibition is nothing more than a glorified scrimmage. It means absolutely nothing.

Sure, it would have been nice to 'win' by 30+ points, but it didn't happen. I just don't see how people can say that an exhibition will dictate how our season will go.

Well, the exhibition games last season certainly did! ;)
 
I think that everyone just needs to relax a little. All of this is coming from one exhibition game, and the first one of the year nonetheless. And lets not forget that an exhibition is nothing more than a glorified scrimmage. It means absolutely nothing.

Sure, it would have been nice to 'win' by 30+ points, but it didn't happen. I just don't see how people can say that an exhibition will dictate how our season will go.

It won't dictate how our season will go. We could play them 9 more times and win them all by 30 puts for all we know. Heck we beat them by 67 last year and it turned out to mean nothing.

But also a lot of the critiquing is coming from players who have been around for 2, 3 even 4 years. None of the harshest criticism is coming from a freshman who played his 1st game. (I mean I guess there is some ADR criticism coming from not being conditioned to play).

It's just tough to watch when these kids for years can't get up for games against inferior opponents. It's happened way too often. Take no prisoners approach is pretty much like Mandarin Chinese to them.
 
I think that everyone just needs to relax a little. All of this is coming from one exhibition game, and the first one of the year nonetheless. And lets not forget that an exhibition is nothing more than a glorified scrimmage. It means absolutely nothing.

Sure, it would have been nice to 'win' by 30+ points, but it didn't happen. I just don't see how people can say that an exhibition will dictate how our season will go.

It won't dictate how our season will go. We could play them 9 more times and win them all by 30 puts for all we know. Heck we beat them by 67 last year and it turned out to mean nothing.

But also a lot of the critiquing is coming from players who have been around for 2, 3 even 4 years. None of the harshest criticism is coming from a freshman who played his 1st game. (I mean I guess there is some ADR criticism coming from not being conditioned to play).

It's just tough to watch when these kids for years can't get up for games against inferior opponents. It's happened way too often. Take no prisoners approach is pretty much like Mandarin Chinese to them.

Have to agree. We put a veteran team on the court with 5 players nationally ranked in the ESPN top 100 and they were played even by D2 players who live in the pot capital of California, Arcadia. I could smell the THC emanating from their sweat.
I am not sure what expectations the coaches have for Amar who has basketball pedigree but if our intrepid coach does not get him into the offense he will be a one and done and head back to Italy.
 
I think that everyone just needs to relax a little. All of this is coming from one exhibition game, and the first one of the year nonetheless. And lets not forget that an exhibition is nothing more than a glorified scrimmage. It means absolutely nothing.

Sure, it would have been nice to 'win' by 30+ points, but it didn't happen. I just don't see how people can say that an exhibition will dictate how our season will go.

It won't dictate how our season will go. We could play them 9 more times and win them all by 30 puts for all we know. Heck we beat them by 67 last year and it turned out to mean nothing.

But also a lot of the critiquing is coming from players who have been around for 2, 3 even 4 years. None of the harshest criticism is coming from a freshman who played his 1st game. (I mean I guess there is some ADR criticism coming from not being conditioned to play).

It's just tough to watch when these kids for years can't get up for games against inferior opponents. It's happened way too often. Take no prisoners approach is pretty much like Mandarin Chinese to them.

Moose, I agree. It was disappointing that we saw no signs of a sense of urgency from a core group that has yet to accomplish their goals at the collegiate level. (and for many of them this is their last chance) It does not give me any confidence that we won't continue to see panic second half comeback attempts against inferior competition early in the year due to a lack of focus and intensity. Frankly, that is an indictment on any team as an indication of lack of heart.

Secondly, as bad as the last two games of last year were, you would think that these guys would be itching to lay a beating on someone. The fact that we didn't is a very bad sign. To me, it shows a lack of embarrassment over being dominated by Robert Morris on your own court. Another bad sign as it indicates that no lessons have been learned and we are essentially in for more of the same this year.
 
Soooo if they come out Saturday and blast STA by 50 plus points, does that mean everything will be fine this year? I don't understand how after one meaningless exhibition game people have written this team and season off. I'm a bit nervous about the season but I'll at least wait till the actual season starts and the games mean something before I become Punxsutawney Phil and predict that we're in for a long winter.
For Humboldt State, that game is like a championship game for them. For St Johns it's nothing more than a glorified scrimmage that has no impact on their season.
Again, I'm going to wait for meaningful games before I give up on my team and the season.
 
Soooo if they come out Saturday and blast STA by 50 plus points, does that mean everything will be fine this year? I don't understand how after one meaningless exhibition game people have written this team and season off. I'm a bit nervous about the season but I'll at least wait till the actual season starts and the games mean something before I become Punxsutawney Phil and predict that we're in for a long winter.
For Humboldt State, that game is like a championship game for them. For St Johns it's nothing more than a glorified scrimmage that has no impact on their season.
Again, I'm going to wait for meaningful games before I give up on my team and the season.

Yes, which is why I agreed with the Rothstein tweet saying Minnesota game is when we will find out what kind of year this will be
 
They are nice kids. Too nice. They always let up when they are up. They need to become pricks like the typical UConn teams. They don't have it in them and the coach is probably the nicest of the bunch.

I agree that we can't base much off one preseason game, but I'm afraid the weatherman knows how to forecast.
 
Soooo if they come out Saturday and blast STA by 50 plus points, does that mean everything will be fine this year? I don't understand how after one meaningless exhibition game people have written this team and season off. I'm a bit nervous about the season but I'll at least wait till the actual season starts and the games mean something before I become Punxsutawney Phil and predict that we're in for a long winter.
For Humboldt State, that game is like a championship game for them. For St Johns it's nothing more than a glorified scrimmage that has no impact on their season.
Again, I'm going to wait for meaningful games before I give up on my team and the season.

While some people might be writing off the team thats their prerogative. I'm not seeing that though. I'm seeing informed posters who watch every single one of this teams games making comments about the team, the coaching and the players.

Also I respect you a great deal as a poster and in another thread you mentioned how its not right after 1 game 18 year old kids are getting criticized. I don't think anyone is really getting out of line. But these kids (yes kids I know) are playing high level college basketball. They shouldn't be immune to criticism. Especially those who have played for year(s) prior.

I'm saying this in general but this site is becoming too much of who is on each side of the sand. Either your with us or against us. It can't be that. This site should still be a place everyone can talk about what they see or feel provided they don't get out of line. Anyway they can go out and blast the team on Saturday and I'll be impressed that they didn't sleep walk thru another meaningless exhibition game. And they corrected mistakes. They could sleepwalk and barely win and it will still mean nothing. But its a little disheartening to see them fail to execute against these seriously lesser teams.
 
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