SJU not in the top ten of Catholic Schools

Holy Cross is small and liberal arts, along the lines of a Catholic version of say Williams, Amherst, Grinnell, Davidson, Colby, Bates, etc. and those mini-Ivies, that don't have post graduate programs.

So I think this list got it right. (Admittedly I am biased because my daughter graduated there 4 years ago.)

Holy Cross places a tremendous number of graduates in serious post graduate programs nationwide. The college chooses not to have a post graduate program to singularly concentrate on a serious undergraduate program. The HC Bio (pre-Med) and Classics departments are considered among the best anywhere, for example. The number of HC grads who go on to Medical and Law school and PhD programs at renowned Universities is very impressive.

The average HC student spends 5 hours a night during the school year on work outside the classroom, higher than Harvard.

My friend had 5 kids, two Harvard, 1 Williams, 2 HC, he went to Harvard for his MBA, he stated unequivocally that his kids that went to HC got a more robust, well-rounded and better education that the other three.

Our Law School Dean actively recruits HC grads because they are highly sought after.

The Chairman of Boston College's Theology Department told my family that going to HC over BC was a wise choice. That the Jesuits themselves consider HC their hidden gem and their single best college.

Just sayin'.
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Or maybe because Dean Simons is a HC grad himself? ;)
 
http://college.usatoday.com/2015/05/18/the-10-best-roman-catholic-colleges/
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Basketball aside, the university is not in great shape. Not because of this list, but because of other overarching problem$
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But there is optimism now with a President who has a business model planned out for the University moving forward. He understands the value of marketing (and if that includes building the basketball program in order to use it as the linchpin for exposure, all the better).

Even the commercials on TV are more crisp and professional. I like the ones that target a student and their achievements, and then end it with the acknowledgement that SJU is a Catholic University.

SJU is in good hands with Gempesaw, imo. He hired the right basketball coach, and must have hired a new marketing company. The building on Astor Place is very nice, and in a hot location. Now SJU neighbors NYU and Cooper Union in the City.

Gempesaw is bright and will foster a change in the University that is long overdue, imo.
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Enrollment was off by 500 students this year. That's a ton of money. College tuition and related costs have spiralled out of control, and SJU is not the only school by a long shot to have encountered fiscal difficulties related to declining enrollment.

The impressive thing is that in the midst of fiscal woes, G has recognized the importance of a strong marquee sport to attract new students and brand the university, and wasn't afraid to spend considerable dollars on a new basketball coach and buy out the existing coach.

Agree 100% with your reaction to the new emphasis on being a Catholic school, but would add that Father Levesque initiated that in his interim year here. It's hard to determine to what extent this was a new initiative and how much of it was related to being free of Harrington's reluctance to emphasize Catholic in the school's identity.

The ship is righting itself, and SJU will emerge better and stronger in all ways under Gempeshaw's leadership. For all the reluctance to name a lay president, this appears to be a great move.
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We rely heavily on tuition $. When there's a decrease in enrollment, it hurts BIG time. Plus low or almost no tuition growth coupled with the planed tuition freeze means times are gonna be tough. And in Feb. Moody's revised their outlook on our revenue bonds from positive to stable.
 
http://college.usatoday.com/2015/05/18/the-10-best-roman-catholic-colleges/
Click to expand...

Basketball aside, the university is not in great shape. Not because of this list, but because of other overarching problem$
Click to expand...

But there is optimism now with a President who has a business model planned out for the University moving forward. He understands the value of marketing (and if that includes building the basketball program in order to use it as the linchpin for exposure, all the better).

Even the commercials on TV are more crisp and professional. I like the ones that target a student and their achievements, and then end it with the acknowledgement that SJU is a Catholic University.

SJU is in good hands with Gempesaw, imo. He hired the right basketball coach, and must have hired a new marketing company. The building on Astor Place is very nice, and in a hot location. Now SJU neighbors NYU and Cooper Union in the City.

Gempesaw is bright and will foster a change in the University that is long overdue, imo.
Click to expand...

Enrollment was off by 500 students this year. That's a ton of money. College tuition and related costs have spiralled out of control, and SJU is not the only school by a long shot to have encountered fiscal difficulties related to declining enrollment.

The impressive thing is that in the midst of fiscal woes, G has recognized the importance of a strong marquee sport to attract new students and brand the university, and wasn't afraid to spend considerable dollars on a new basketball coach and buy out the existing coach.

Agree 100% with your reaction to the new emphasis on being a Catholic school, but would add that Father Levesque initiated that in his interim year here. It's hard to determine to what extent this was a new initiative and how much of it was related to being free of Harrington's reluctance to emphasize Catholic in the school's identity.

The ship is righting itself, and SJU will emerge better and stronger in all ways under Gempeshaw's leadership. For all the reluctance to name a lay president, this appears to be a great move.
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We rely heavily on tuition $. When there's a decrease in enrollment, it hurts BIG time. Plus low or almost no tuition growth coupled with the planed tuition freeze means times are gonna be tough. And in Feb. Moody's revised their outlook on our revenue bonds from positive to stable.
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There's no question they are having financial problems. At 40,000 tuition per year 500 students is a shortfall of $20 million in revenue. Tuition is too high right now, and a kid gets a much better ROI from a SUNY school, or even a better academic institution than St. John's right now. I think the school has to figure out how to decrease costs and increase enrollment, and at the same time increase the quality of student it attracts. Tall order.

I suspect much of the problem for SJU has to do with government subsidies on student loans going away.
 
Holy Cross is small and liberal arts, along the lines of a Catholic version of say Williams, Amherst, Grinnell, Davidson, Colby, Bates, etc. and those mini-Ivies, that don't have post graduate programs.

So I think this list got it right. (Admittedly I am biased because my daughter graduated there 4 years ago.)

Holy Cross places a tremendous number of graduates in serious post graduate programs nationwide. The college chooses not to have a post graduate program to singularly concentrate on a serious undergraduate program. The HC Bio (pre-Med) and Classics departments are considered among the best anywhere, for example. The number of HC grads who go on to Medical and Law school and PhD programs at renowned Universities is very impressive.

The average HC student spends 5 hours a night during the school year on work outside the classroom, higher than Harvard.

My friend had 5 kids, two Harvard, 1 Williams, 2 HC, he went to Harvard for his MBA, he stated unequivocally that his kids that went to HC got a more robust, well-rounded and better education that the other three.

Our Law School Dean actively recruits HC grads because they are highly sought after.

The Chairman of Boston College's Theology Department told my family that going to HC over BC was a wise choice. That the Jesuits themselves consider HC their hidden gem and their single best college.

Just sayin'.
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As a 40 year New England resident, I remember when Holy Cross was superior to BC in every way.
2 things that switched the equation were BC entering the Big East (Holy Cross at the time declined the invitation) and Hail Flutie.
Snobby Cross alums applauded turning down the BE invitation, citing that a big time sports conference and very high academics could not coexist.
When I mention G'town to them this very day, they cringe.

http://colleges.startclass.com/compare/1893-1933/Boston-College-vs-College-of-the-Holy-Cross
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Tom, you really make an excellent point about sports identity and how athletic success translate into academic excellence by the types of students that attracts. Older Georgetown alums have a saying, "Thank God for Patrick Ewing" for increasing the academic prestige of the school. Duke's academic prowess is closely tied to basketball success, which is why Coach K makes almost $10 million per year. ND? Of course. BC? Yes. Nova? Their applications zoomed after their first final four appearance under Jay Wright.

Bobby G. knows all of this, which is whyting in Mullin to restore our program.
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NYU did the same thing circa 1960s based on the same erroneous premise Beast: big time sports and academic standing cannot do-exist.
What nonsense. They also gave up ROTC - I guess they believed patriotism and academia could not co-exist either.

I hope your correct that the new Pres. manages to move SJU in the right direction - I'm sure that's his plan. And it's doable.

Enjoyed all the discussions above - thanks.
 
FWIW....

=YlOUBad4ht8C&pg=PA237&lpg=PA237&dq=nyu+financial+troubles+1970%27s&source=bl&ots=GLeaB9KjJU&sig=7XabDbpxT5WwxOpVKcuNNZHENus&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PpNeVaGHDabLsASduYLgBw&ved=0CEsQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=nyu%20financial%20troubles%201970's&f=false

Chapter 14: NYU's Financial Problems in the 1970's
 
Now we just need to figure out a way to have kids tripping all over themselves lining up to pay $71,000 a year like at NYU.
 
Now we just need to figure out a way to have kids tripping all over themselves lining up to pay $71,000 a year like at NYU.
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If I'm not mistaken, NYU gets more applicants than any school in the U.S. The tuition cited above caused my son, who was accepted to NYU, say, "Dad, I just can't see going there. It's too expensive." That statement alone was almost as shocking to me as the tuition costs.
 
Now we just need to figure out a way to have kids tripping all over themselves lining up to pay $71,000 a year like at NYU.
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If I'm not mistaken, NYU gets more applicants than any school in the U.S. The tuition cited above caused my son, who was accepted to NYU, say, "Dad, I just can't see going there. It's too expensive." That statement alone was almost as shocking to me as the tuition costs.
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I made some great friends there, but I'm not sure it was even worth a fraction of the $25,000 my dad helped pay back in 1989-94. So I can't imagine any scenario where it would be worth almost three times that now.

Then again, I hooked up with some women who I should have had absolutely no shot in hell with at all, so maybe that should factor into the price tag. :lol:
 
I have one in SUNY and one at St. John's who I really thought was going to go to a SUNY school also. Thank goodness for the Academic scholarships and one nice size grant (not a loan) that both of them received.
 
Yeah, that killed NYU :rollyeyesandstuff:
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There are of course schools that are academically esteemed who do quite well attracting students without resorting to the added benefit of competitive sports teams - MIT, U Chicago, Carnegie Mellon, Emory, Tufts, etc. Then there are schools that are academically superb (Hopkins-lacrosse, Harvard - basketball, Duke - bball, among others) that make an investment in athletics as part of the branding of the school. It's all part of a marketing mix, and many applicants are attracted to a winning tradition. Of course, amenities like health clubs, swimming pools, gourmet food, superior dorm accommodations all help as well.
 
While admittedly I considered rankings when I chose to go to IU for law school (which I very much enjoyed), I don't think it should be be a first or second consideration. I believe students should find a program, campus and staff that fit their academic pursuits first and foremost. But reality seems to suggest that students look at the college experience (for which big time sports plays as vital a marketing role as campus life) while parents are cost driven. Unfortunately there is also that large segment of students who chose schools on that nebulous "reputation" scale, which puts a premium on the prestige of the school rather than the fit for the student. The brilliant Malcolm Gladwell discusses this in "David and Goliath", and how the big fish in small pond statistically fairs better in their stated career objectives that the big fish in giant pond. My long winded point is that rankings have a place in decision making but should by no means be dispositive.
....however, this listing has us ranked 72nd among Catholic schools, which is not comforting when forecasting the long term health of the school.
 
While admittedly I considered rankings when I chose to go to IU for law school (which I very much enjoyed), I don't think it should be be a first or second consideration. I believe students should find a program, campus and staff that fit their academic pursuits first and foremost. But reality seems to suggest that students look at the college experience (for which big time sports plays as vital a marketing role as campus life) while parents are cost driven. Unfortunately there is also that large segment of students who chose schools on that nebulous "reputation" scale, which puts a premium on the prestige of the school rather than the fit for the student. The brilliant Malcolm Gladwell discusses this in "David and Goliath", and how the big fish in small pond statistically fairs better in their stated career objectives that the big fish in giant pond. My long winded point is that rankings have a place in decision making but should by no means be dispositive.
....however, this listing has us ranked 72nd among Catholic schools, which is not comforting when forecasting the long term health of the school.
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As usual, your post is well articulated, and makes sense. I enjoy reading all of them, Indy.

It's a point well taken that students should select a school that will further their academic interests as a primary consideration. With many students not quite sure of what their interests are, a university with broad academic offerings may be more appropriate. The ease at which you may switch between colleges at a university should also be a consideration. Here's the pitch for SJU:

SJU has a college of liberal arts, an allied health professions college, and a business school at the undergraduate level. A kid could think he wants to be a physician's assistant, but decide early that he'd be more interested in finance. At a school like HC, a small liberal arts college, neither major is available. Boston College has a phenomenal business school and great liberal arts college, but no healthcare professions. From what I understand transferring into the business school is a near impossibility. Villanova also has a great business school, along with a solid liberal arts program, a school of nursing, and engineering school.

Academic rankings have made college selection a sweepstakes of sorts. Here at Redmen.com, Paul (a really fine and very intelligent guy if you don't know him), offered his advice to me when my son went through the process. MAny high school grads in this country have worked incredibly hard academically and are better prepared for college than those of the previous generation. They often see their college choice as a destination, and not a means to an ends. Certainly there IS a difference in quality among college and universities, but I've always maintained that the quality of student defines a college at least as much (if not much more) than the faculty or college itself. If Harvard switched student bodies with a school of low academic standing, those students would still likely perform extremely well in a less esteemed institution.

A college degree, though, is still a pedigree of sorts. As an attorney you are aware that Harvard and Yale law school grads are in great demand by top law firms, in part because of the presumed academic prowess and intellect of those grads, and in part because an Ivy law degree adds prestige to the firm. All of this diminishes as your career progresses - you are either talented or not. But it is a great career booster early on. Sad to say, a Princeton grad's resume will get more interest than a St. John's grad.

BUT - First hand I can also relate that when I began college a year early and a few months past my 17th birthday, at Queens College, I was a fish out of water. The school was competitive and not in a nice way. I remember missing a lecture and asking a peer I was friendly with for class notes - I was refused because I was reminded, the professor graded on a curve, and a lower grade for me meant a higher grade for her. It was a social environment I wasn't quite prepared for either.

Transferring to St. John's was like finding an oasis. Not only was my choice of major a springboard to what has become a satisfying and rewarding career, but I encountered what I would argue to be some of the finest people on earth. I made lifelong friends. I LOVED coming to SJU every day of my college experience - except maybe exam days. I continue to make friends at SJU - many of you included, and even among administration. All important factors not to be overlooked when selecting a school.

I think experiences such as mine (and yours) should be part of SJU's marketing of the school. It's nice to feature current students and recent grads in order to appeal to HS students, but of great value should be what alums have achieved personally and professionally and attribute to their own SJU experience even decades later. Are you reading, Bobby G.?
 
The good news is that "Suits" Harrington is no longer the president of St.John's University and that all reports Indicate that President Bobby G is righting the course of the University.

Bobby G has surrounded himself with true professionals, not "yes men" who will likely change the schools 1960s business model by reducing the size of the institution. I am told that Bobby understands that rankings do count. I also appreciate the fact that Bobby G has made himself accessible to the StJohn's students unlike his predicessor who seemingly avoided contact with students.
 
Am I missing something or was it not in the top 45? That was St. John's of Minnesota listed.
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I'm also confused. I see Saint John's University listed at #14, but that's the Minnesota one. Was that a misprint or were we excluded from the top 45?
 
Am I missing something or was it not in the top 45? That was St. John's of Minnesota listed.
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I'm also confused. I see Saint John's University listed at #14, but that's the Minnesota one. Was that a misprint or were we excluded from the top 45?
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I'm not sure of the answer, but I do have a story to relate. I've traveled extensively for business for the past 27 years. Early on when I met new people and told them where I went to school, way more often than not there immediately there was name recognition, even in the Midwest. Then as we progressed through the Norm years, at least half the time, when I said St. John's, someone would remark, "Oh, in Minnesota.." I'd correct them, and except for the sports nuts, some folks even said, "St. John's in New York? Never heard of the school". I give Lavin lots of credit, because almost from day 1, her brought us back into national prominence as a competitive program, and since he arrived, when I travel, people once again immediately know St. John's. My experience is anecdotal, but at the same time, I believe significant. After all, We ARE St. John's, but for a period of time about a decade ago, we weren't
 
Dear Beast in reply to your post about Holy Cross versus, GTown, BC and especially Villanova:

I most respectfully (and adamantly) disagree, without question when it comes to BC & Villanova.

For example, my daughter received a scholarship from Nova and got into BC, but had to get in off the wait list for HC. It was worth the wait!

G-Town I’ll probably concede, definitely not the other two. HC keeps on getting even more selective too.
 
FWIW....

As we know, St. John's maintains a School of Education and a College of Professional Studies.

The schools in the top 10, for the most part, do not.

Some of the top tier schools have schools of engineering, architecture and/or nursing, for example, while we do not.

Make no mistake about it, Bobby will improve our rep during his tenure.

We are lucky to have him as our president.
 
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