Ripping Off Young America

[beast of the east]

Does a Catholic university have an obligation to make sure that each and every one of their students (and their parents) FULLY understand the implications, consequences and legal obligations of taking on "outsized" student loan debt, particularly in this "new normal" economic enviornment ?

About 40% of the St. John's undergrad population come from families with a Household AGI of $50K or below. Should this financially challenged group of young men and women be EXPLICITLY discouraged from attending St. John's if they MUST take out $35K in student loan debt.

I picked $35K out of "the air". Needless to say, you can choose your own amount of student loan debt.

In your opinion, how much student loan debt is "enough"?

What amount of student loan debt would you discourage your son, daughter, brother, sister, cousin, etc. from taking on ?

It goes without saying that everyone's situation is different. But, the fact remains that on average a person earns $1.5m more over the course of their lifetime if they have a bachelors than if they've only graduated high school.

Where you get that degree, and how much debt you should take on, that's up for debate. But even taking out $35k or more, on average, it easily pays off.

I think it's worth it to go to a reputable private school if they have better connections than some crappy SUNY (Buffalo/Brockport/Cortland/Cobleskill/Fredonia) and better internship opportunities. For example, Marist has very close ties with ESPN, NBC Universal, and IBM (some joke our relationship with the company is so close that it stands for I Bought Marist). Students routinely get internships at these places and some even get offered jobs. You just won't see that at the schools I mentioned before. IMO the only truly good SUNY's are Stony Brook, Geneseo, and Binghamton. The other schools give you that 13th grade feeling...it doesn't seem like students are as serious about going places and doing well academically. I remember looking at CUNY Hunter and their honor's program required something like an 85 average and the orientation was full of rude, immature idiots acting like goons...so much so that the speaker even had to tell them multiple times to be respectful. Needless to say I walked out and felt like I was in high school again.

I say, as long as you have a plan to get into a career that makes legitimate money (i.e. starting around $60k or so) and can get some assistance from family, then go to the best school you can get into whether that be Columbia or wherever. I have a family member who went to Columbia for education and they were worried it would be too much money, but I urged them to go, because the name "Columbia" on your resume and degree is priceless. After they graduated Columbia, they got a job offer making $70k to teach right away while the Dowling and St. Joe's grads were being rejected. The name on your degree does definitely mean something. The prestige factor is definitely there.

Not to mention the pack of columbia guys wearing the same colored columbia shirts together get all the girls at the boardy barn

It's always funny to see women go from their bad boy stage to wanting to settle down with an established guy with an education and a good job. I love watching the nerds in HS who could never get any become the new "bad boys" with their Yale degrees giving them a near celebrity status once girls grow up and realize Mr. James Dean won't pay the bills or stick around. Go Poindexter, go!

Wasn't there a letter last year from a female Princeton alum who strongly suggested that a primary reason fro women to attend Ivy league schools is to nail down a Princeton husband (and high earning potential) while still in school?

 

[Pleasedontbanmeagain]

Does a Catholic university have an obligation to make sure that each and every one of their students (and their parents) FULLY understand the implications, consequences and legal obligations of taking on "outsized" student loan debt, particularly in this "new normal" economic enviornment ?

About 40% of the St. John's undergrad population come from families with a Household AGI of $50K or below. Should this financially challenged group of young men and women be EXPLICITLY discouraged from attending St. John's if they MUST take out $35K in student loan debt.

I picked $35K out of "the air". Needless to say, you can choose your own amount of student loan debt.

In your opinion, how much student loan debt is "enough"?

What amount of student loan debt would you discourage your son, daughter, brother, sister, cousin, etc. from taking on ?

It goes without saying that everyone's situation is different. But, the fact remains that on average a person earns $1.5m more over the course of their lifetime if they have a bachelors than if they've only graduated high school.

Where you get that degree, and how much debt you should take on, that's up for debate. But even taking out $35k or more, on average, it easily pays off.

I think it's worth it to go to a reputable private school if they have better connections than some crappy SUNY (Buffalo/Brockport/Cortland/Cobleskill/Fredonia) and better internship opportunities. For example, Marist has very close ties with ESPN, NBC Universal, and IBM (some joke our relationship with the company is so close that it stands for I Bought Marist). Students routinely get internships at these places and some even get offered jobs. You just won't see that at the schools I mentioned before. IMO the only truly good SUNY's are Stony Brook, Geneseo, and Binghamton. The other schools give you that 13th grade feeling...it doesn't seem like students are as serious about going places and doing well academically. I remember looking at CUNY Hunter and their honor's program required something like an 85 average and the orientation was full of rude, immature idiots acting like goons...so much so that the speaker even had to tell them multiple times to be respectful. Needless to say I walked out and felt like I was in high school again.

I say, as long as you have a plan to get into a career that makes legitimate money (i.e. starting around $60k or so) and can get some assistance from family, then go to the best school you can get into whether that be Columbia or wherever. I have a family member who went to Columbia for education and they were worried it would be too much money, but I urged them to go, because the name "Columbia" on your resume and degree is priceless. After they graduated Columbia, they got a job offer making $70k to teach right away while the Dowling and St. Joe's grads were being rejected. The name on your degree does definitely mean something. The prestige factor is definitely there.

Not to mention the pack of columbia guys wearing the same colored columbia shirts together get all the girls at the boardy barn

It's always funny to see women go from their bad boy stage to wanting to settle down with an established guy with an education and a good job. I love watching the nerds in HS who could never get any become the new "bad boys" with their Yale degrees giving them a near celebrity status once girls grow up and realize Mr. James Dean won't pay the bills or stick around. Go Poindexter, go!

Wasn't there a letter last year from a female Princeton alum who strongly suggested that a primary reason fro women to attend Ivy league schools is to nail down a Princeton husband (and high earning potential) while still in school?

Yes, exactly as you stated. I remember reading it and seeing the reaction of feminists. Feminism really has ruined women, and killed families for that matter but that's a wholeeeee other topic so I'll quit while I'm ahead >-)

As to someone who asked "Should SJU and other catholic schools explain the impact of these loans"? Yes. Will they? No. These days it's all about the mula. Money is over everything unfortunately...even people's well-being.

 

[mjmaherjr]

Does a Catholic university have an obligation to make sure that each and every one of their students (and their parents) FULLY understand the implications, consequences and legal obligations of taking on "outsized" student loan debt, particularly in this "new normal" economic enviornment ?

About 40% of the St. John's undergrad population come from families with a Household AGI of $50K or below. Should this financially challenged group of young men and women be EXPLICITLY discouraged from attending St. John's if they MUST take out $35K in student loan debt.

I picked $35K out of "the air". Needless to say, you can choose your own amount of student loan debt.

In your opinion, how much student loan debt is "enough"?

What amount of student loan debt would you discourage your son, daughter, brother, sister, cousin, etc. from taking on ?

It goes without saying that everyone's situation is different. But, the fact remains that on average a person earns $1.5m more over the course of their lifetime if they have a bachelors than if they've only graduated high school.

Where you get that degree, and how much debt you should take on, that's up for debate. But even taking out $35k or more, on average, it easily pays off.

I think it's worth it to go to a reputable private school if they have better connections than some crappy SUNY (Buffalo/Brockport/Cortland/Cobleskill/Fredonia) and better internship opportunities. For example, Marist has very close ties with ESPN, NBC Universal, and IBM (some joke our relationship with the company is so close that it stands for I Bought Marist). Students routinely get internships at these places and some even get offered jobs. You just won't see that at the schools I mentioned before. IMO the only truly good SUNY's are Stony Brook, Geneseo, and Binghamton. The other schools give you that 13th grade feeling...it doesn't seem like students are as serious about going places and doing well academically. I remember looking at CUNY Hunter and their honor's program required something like an 85 average and the orientation was full of rude, immature idiots acting like goons...so much so that the speaker even had to tell them multiple times to be respectful. Needless to say I walked out and felt like I was in high school again.

I say, as long as you have a plan to get into a career that makes legitimate money (i.e. starting around $60k or so) and can get some assistance from family, then go to the best school you can get into whether that be Columbia or wherever. I have a family member who went to Columbia for education and they were worried it would be too much money, but I urged them to go, because the name "Columbia" on your resume and degree is priceless. After they graduated Columbia, they got a job offer making $70k to teach right away while the Dowling and St. Joe's grads were being rejected. The name on your degree does definitely mean something. The prestige factor is definitely there.

Not to mention the pack of columbia guys wearing the same colored columbia shirts together get all the girls at the boardy barn

It's always funny to see women go from their bad boy stage to wanting to settle down with an established guy with an education and a good job. I love watching the nerds in HS who could never get any become the new "bad boys" with their Yale degrees giving them a near celebrity status once girls grow up and realize Mr. James Dean won't pay the bills or stick around. Go Poindexter, go!

yep thats why you dont get married early right after school. Especially as girls get closer to 30 the girl wealth pool increases dramatically

 

[19854ever]

an excellent article by Mr. Taibbi IMHO SJU based on the Vincentian Mission they espouse has a moral obligation to its students and families to discuss the loan implications of an sju degree. Fr. Levesque please read the rolling stone article and the discussion chain below. SJU as a Vincentian school should be the national leader in tuition reform and creating real reform for future SJU graduates.

 

[beast of the east]

an excellent article by Mr. Taibbi IMHO SJU based on the Vincentian Mission they espouse has a moral obligation to its students and families to discuss the loan implications of an sju degree. Fr. Levesque please read the rolling stone article and the discussion chain below. SJU as a Vincentian school should be the national leader in tuition reform and creating real reform for future SJU graduates.

I hate to say it, but no way in hell this will ever happen. Does a car dealer ask what else you have to sacrifice if our loan is approved? Does a bank tell you that you will be house poor if you take on a big mortgage? No. The products they sell are dependent on financing. St. John's has a product to sell - education - and it is financed through these loans. Let the buyer beware is the attitude I am sure.

 

[austour]

Agree. Last time I bought a car I looked across the table and expected the Priest to say to me, Jesus Christ what are you thinking buying this jalopy? He said nothing of the sort.

 

[19854ever]

Beast great point, if you are Syracuse or RPI, both secular colleges, but SJU is a Vincentian school dedicated to the poor. The school is being hypocritical if they are not honest with students and their families about the long term debt obligations involved if they attend SJU.

 

[Pleasedontbanmeagain]

Beast great point, if you are Syracuse or RPI, both secular colleges, but SJU is a Vincentian school dedicated to the poor. The school is being hypocritical if they are not honest with students and their families about the long term debt obligations involved if they attend SJU.

You really think the big business guys today care about being hypocritical? Hell, they will lie right to your face and smile while taking your money. We live in a country today where money is #1...I agree with you that the school should in theory warn youth about the true implications of these loans, but in reality it will never happen. Then again, big tobacco companies making cigarettes should in theory just stop making cancer sticks that kill countless millions if not billions, but the green dollar signs will always blind them.

 

[ras]

When making a decision to go to college both the student and parents must look at costs. IE if one wants to be a social worker the salary doesn't justify a large debt burden. That is why state schools are becoming more attractive to students, Schools like UF,Michigan,Rutgers,UNC are very cost effective. I mentioned in the past I now live in FL. My daughter graduated college from FSU, relatively reasonable. She is now going to grad school at Columbia, I can use the money saved towards her advanced degree.

 

[beast of the east]

Beast great point, if you are Syracuse or RPI, both secular colleges, but SJU is a Vincentian school dedicated to the poor. The school is being hypocritical if they are not honest with students and their families about the long term debt obligations involved if they attend SJU.

I wasn't justifying their position, I'm just saying it will never happen, Vincentian school or not. Revenue fuels the machine, and student loan revenue is the same color as Pell grants, and the same color as cash out of pocket. I'm sure there are many in a position of responsibility that feel that an SJU education is a great value, and more than justifies the debt.

Richard Steinfeld just made a great point of evaluating ROI based on the expected income a degree will generate. If your chosen career path will pay an average of $50,000 per year in the NYC metro area, is it worth it to put yourself $100,000 in debt for that degree, especially if available at a state or CUNY school?

President Obama today spoke of introducing legislation that will tie federal grants to universities to the ability to offer lower tuition. Considering that it is federal low interest student loans in large part enlarging the pool of students to private universities, it is the federal government itself that is largely responsible for tution increases far in excess of CPI.

 

[Pleasedontbanmeagain]

Beast great point, if you are Syracuse or RPI, both secular colleges, but SJU is a Vincentian school dedicated to the poor. The school is being hypocritical if they are not honest with students and their families about the long term debt obligations involved if they attend SJU.

I wasn't justifying their position, I'm just saying it will never happen, Vincentian school or not. Revenue fuels the machine, and student loan revenue is the same color as Pell grants, and the same color as cash out of pocket. I'm sure there are many in a position of responsibility that feel that an SJU education is a great value, and more than justifies the debt.

Richard Steinfeld just made a great point of evaluating ROI based on the expected income a degree will generate. If your chosen career path will pay an average of $50,000 per year in the NYC metro area, is it worth it to put yourself $100,000 in debt for that degree, especially if available at a state or CUNY school?

President Obama today spoke of introducing legislation that will tie federal grants to universities to the ability to offer lower tuition. Considering that it is federal low interest student loans in large part enlarging the pool of students to private universities, it is the federal government itself that is largely responsible for tution increases far in excess of CPI.

True...the student must have a plan if he/she plans on attending an expensive private school. I literally looked up the bare minimum starting salary I could expect when I eventually get a job in my field. I knew a starting salary of approx. $60-70k and 6 figures within 10-12 years would eventually pay it off somewhat reasonably if I'm smart with my money. I'm still shocked to hear that people do not have plans as to what they specifically want to do. If you asked me what the biggest difference between the people my age doing well and the people falling behind was, I'd say the well-off ones planned well and the worse-off ones just did whatever was easiest and found out it led to no money.

I literally have friends who are barely making 30k in business for headhunting. They hate it and talk about possibly switching fields and going back to school but then they say they don't want more debt and just settle for their current crappy job. Sometimes more debt is necessary for a much bigger salary. Gotta pay some to get some I always said. One thing I've noticed is that my friends in union jobs are doing quite well while my friends in the private sector are struggling...the only one doing well is a Cornell grad.

 

[mjmaherjr]

Beast great point, if you are Syracuse or RPI, both secular colleges, but SJU is a Vincentian school dedicated to the poor. The school is being hypocritical if they are not honest with students and their families about the long term debt obligations involved if they attend SJU.

I wasn't justifying their position, I'm just saying it will never happen, Vincentian school or not. Revenue fuels the machine, and student loan revenue is the same color as Pell grants, and the same color as cash out of pocket. I'm sure there are many in a position of responsibility that feel that an SJU education is a great value, and more than justifies the debt.

Richard Steinfeld just made a great point of evaluating ROI based on the expected income a degree will generate. If your chosen career path will pay an average of $50,000 per year in the NYC metro area, is it worth it to put yourself $100,000 in debt for that degree, especially if available at a state or CUNY school?

President Obama today spoke of introducing legislation that will tie federal grants to universities to the ability to offer lower tuition. Considering that it is federal low interest student loans in large part enlarging the pool of students to private universities, it is the federal government itself that is largely responsible for tution increases far in excess of CPI.

True...the student must have a plan if he/she plans on attending an expensive private school. I literally looked up the bare minimum starting salary I could expect when I eventually get a job in my field. I knew a starting salary of approx. $60-70k and 6 figures within 10-12 years would eventually pay it off somewhat reasonably if I'm smart with my money. I'm still shocked to hear that people do not have plans as to what they specifically want to do. If you asked me what the biggest difference between the people my age doing well and the people falling behind was, I'd say the well-off ones planned well and the worse-off ones just did whatever was easiest and found out it led to no money.

I literally have friends who are barely making 30k in business for headhunting. They hate it and talk about possibly switching fields and going back to school but then they say they don't want more debt and just settle for their current crappy job. Sometimes more debt is necessary for a much bigger salary. Gotta pay some to get some I always said. One thing I've noticed is that my friends in union jobs are doing quite well while my friends in the private sector are struggling...the only one doing well is a Cornell grad.

BTW Joe I have meant to tell you this for a while since I have read like a thousand of your posts as much as I think you get crazy as a fan I have to tell you that as someone who has managed money for a long time I appreciated your due diligence as far as spending money etc and your long term outlook on finances.

I still think your nuts but you are a good kind of nuts. More people your age should think long term in life so early

 

[McGarry2]

MJMAHER,Jr

My kids could talk the talk in their early 20s like so many. It is only later we learn the truth.

 

[beast of the east]

MJMAHER,Jr

My kids could talk the talk in their early 20s like so many. It is only later we learn the truth.

Damnit McGarry, can't you let someone give Joe some heartfelt credit once in a while without spoiling it.