Prior Coaches. Good, Bad and all else

beast of the east

beast of the east

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[quote="OLV72" post=359820]Seriously, I wasn't thinking about numbers. Pointer came out and made the best of his final year. There was more to it than just playing a different position. He reached his potential in that final season.

I can see Heron do the same thing this season.[/quote]

Say what you want about Lavin (remember Keady was still on this bench). In year one he radically changed roles and the lineup by benching Boothe and Evans in favor of Hardy and Brownlee. Hardy played out of position at the point, but his fair ball handling never cost us. Brownlee had a great year until he broke his finger, and DJ Kennedy was relegated to third wheel where he also excelled, filling out a scoresheet with rebounds, points, and assists.

Pointer was turned into a point of sorts, pushing the ball up court on every possession. The team strategy was changed to maximize Pointer's athleticism, and Pointer didn't disappoint - blocked shots, steals, transition baskets, and free up Harrison and Greene to shoot from the wings. When you think about up, until Harrison got banged up badly, this was a dark horse team to go deep in the tourney.

The decision to play Pointer the way he did maximized Pointer's abilities to the Nth degree and almost got him to the NBA.

Say anything you want about Lavin, but his two best seasons were derailed by key injuries that wrecked our post season chances (including the season ending injury to Kennedy in the BET.) Well that and a thick haze of smoke around Obekpa.

Both seasons included strategic decisions that both work out very well and although injuries are a part of the game, Lavin could still be here.
 
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I don't think there is any question that Heron's junior season at St. John's was uneven at best, and as a result would be a C plus at best.

He has enormous upside where even last season could go off for 28 points one night, but struggle to score the next. The low point was capped by his horrendous performance in the ncaa play in game. The real Heron shows up at his best and we coast into the first round.

Fully expect him to score between 16 and 21 ppg but more importantly have a consistent season where he will be productive game in and out.

Agree that last season was not completely of his doing and that it got into his head. Numbers alone weren't bad but most agree he can be much better.
 
[quote="usguard" post=360130]Are you saying the school jumped to fast and we should have stayed with Lsvin[/quote]

I'm ambivalent about Lavin's departure. Considering how weak the next season's squad shaped up to be, the decision seemed sound. We surveyed redmen.com users at the end of Lav's last season and more than 80% said to retain him. He had a penchant though for pulling rabbits out of hats, and he could have retained Obekpa possibly, but I think Jordan had already decided to leave while Lavin was coach. His rosters were too damned thin and too short, and it didn't seem to bother him

But on strategic decisions alone, I cannot remember a coach making such bold moves in the paying rotation as Lavin did and have them pay off with 2 ncaa bids.

On topic though, Anderson's team at the very least appear to be very hard working recruiters.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=360166][quote="usguard" post=360130]Are you saying the school jumped to fast and we should have stayed with Lsvin[/quote]

I'm ambivalent about Lavin's departure. Considering how weak the next season's squad shaped up to be, the decision seemed sound. We surveyed redmen.com users at the end of Lav's last season and more than 80% said to retain him. He had a penchant though for pulling rabbits out of hats, and he could have retained Obekpa possibly, but I think Jordan had already decided to leave while Lavin was coach. His rosters were too damned thin and too short, and it didn't seem to bother him

But on strategic decisions alone, I cannot remember a coach making such bold moves in the paying rotation as Lavin did and have them pay off with 2 ncaa bids.

On topic though, Anderson's team at the very least appear to be very hard working recruiters.[/quote]

Poll? 80%?
 
[quote="Knight" post=360175][quote="Beast of the East" post=360166][quote="usguard" post=360130]Are you saying the school jumped to fast and we should have stayed with Lsvin[/quote]

I'm ambivalent about Lavin's departure. Considering how weak the next season's squad shaped up to be, the decision seemed sound. We surveyed redmen.com users at the end of Lav's last season and more than 80% said to retain him. He had a penchant though for pulling rabbits out of hats, and he could have retained Obekpa possibly, but I think Jordan had already decided to leave while Lavin was coach. His rosters were too damned thin and too short, and it didn't seem to bother him

But on strategic decisions alone, I cannot remember a coach making such bold moves in the paying rotation as Lavin did and have them pay off with 2 ncaa bids.

On topic though, Anderson's team at the very least appear to be very hard working recruiters.[/quote]

Poll? 80%?[/quote]

Yes. On here.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=360187][quote="Knight" post=360175][quote="Beast of the East" post=360166][quote="usguard" post=360130]Are you saying the school jumped to fast and we should have stayed with Lsvin[/quote]

I'm ambivalent about Lavin's departure. Considering how weak the next season's squad shaped up to be, the decision seemed sound. We surveyed redmen.com users at the end of Lav's last season and more than 80% said to retain him. He had a penchant though for pulling rabbits out of hats, and he could have retained Obekpa possibly, but I think Jordan had already decided to leave while Lavin was coach. His rosters were too damned thin and too short, and it didn't seem to bother him

But on strategic decisions alone, I cannot remember a coach making such bold moves in the paying rotation as Lavin did and have them pay off with 2 ncaa bids.

On topic though, Anderson's team at the very least appear to be very hard working recruiters.[/quote]

Poll? 80%?[/quote]

Yes. On here.[/quote]

I said this at the time, so it's not a second guess:

Lavin either should have been let go after all of his guys were juniors (the Robert Morris NIT game), or he had to be allowed to stick around, and clean up the mess.

You could see two seasons out, that this was going to be an issue with that team. Letting Lavin go when they did, made the job totally undesirable. That's how you wind up with a coach like Mullin. While I think President Bobby had Mullin lined up when he let Lavin go, if he didn't, either Lavin would have stayed, and been forced to recruit (which I think might have worked, with a step back in 15-16), or we would have had another ugly search process, most likely.

It wasn't firing Lavin that was the mistake. It was when they did it, that was a problem, IMO.
 
Lavin gave us two fun seasons lets just leave it at that. He stopped trying on the recruiting trail, and so did Mullin. I am hoping Mike A maintains the hard work he has shown throughout his tenure. Tired of coaches getting burnt out and giving up
 
[quote="SJU61982" post=360188]
....... It wasn't firing Lavin that was the mistake. It was when they did it, that was a problem, IMO.[/quote]

The hirings associated with Coaches Roberts, Lavin and Mullin, and the firing of Jarvis reflect the lack of experienced professionals managing the athletic department at StJohn’s at the time of those events.

Cragg’s hiring was the best thing to happen to StJohn’s athletic department in a number of decades.
 
[quote="otis" post=360192][quote="SJU61982" post=360188]
....... It wasn't firing Lavin that was the mistake. It was when they did it, that was a problem, IMO.[/quote]

The hirings associated with Coaches Roberts, Lavin and Mullin, and the firing of Jarvis reflect the lack of experienced professionals managing the athletic department at StJohn’s at the time of those events.

Cragg’s hiring was the best thing to happen to StJohn’s athletic department in a number of decades.[/quote]

Jarvis was begging to get fired. He was angry with the school when as a condition for him taking the Charlotte NBA job Michael Jordan had offered him tried to guarantee that SJU would hire junior. He then declared he wasn't going to deal with AAU handlers in recruiting, then when his team got off to a losing start declared that he was a teacher and that losses didn't matter to him. The mistake was firing him in season, and not augmenting the staff with an interim assistant. Jarvis became an embittered, nasty guy who just had to go.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=360193]The mistake was firing him in season, and not augmenting the staff with an interim assistant. Jarvis became an embittered, nasty guy who just had to go.[/quote]

Yeah, I think that's what Otis was alluding to. The correct move would have been to fire him after the previous season. Team stunk. He was obviously not doing a good job. But the team rode Hatten to the NIT title. Damn you Marcus. The in season firing and the Pittsburgh fiasco probably all could have been avoided thereby not requiring a Norm hire. Now I'm not saying the admin would have got that hire right a year earlier but they couldn't have done worse, unless they hired Doh..
 
[quote="Knight" post=360175][quote="Beast of the East" post=360166][quote="usguard" post=360130]Are you saying the school jumped to fast and we should have stayed with Lsvin[/quote]

I'm ambivalent about Lavin's departure. Considering how weak the next season's squad shaped up to be, the decision seemed sound. We surveyed redmen.com users at the end of Lav's last season and more than 80% said to retain him. He had a penchant though for pulling rabbits out of hats, and he could have retained Obekpa possibly, but I think Jordan had already decided to leave while Lavin was coach. His rosters were too damned thin and too short, and it didn't seem to bother him

But on strategic decisions alone, I cannot remember a coach making such bold moves in the paying rotation as Lavin did and have them pay off with 2 ncaa bids.

On topic though, Anderson's team at the very least appear to be very hard working recruiters.[/quote]

Poll? 80%?[/quote]

I remember the poll having more people wanting him to stay, but I think it was closer than 80/20.
 
Jarvis was a disgrace. How many forfeited games is he responsible for?
 
[quote="Knight" post=360231]Jarvis was a disgrace. How many forfeited games is he responsible for?[/quote]

We have not had a professional, committed, totally engaged coach since Louie except for two guys who should have remained assistants, Mahoney and Roberts. NONE of the others were “Good” in any meaningful, program building sense. None of them left a legacy that could be built on. IMO, outside of the two aforementioned, they all “stole money.” The other two at least gave honest effort, albeit very futilely. BTW, we have one now; and yes, Monte, I definitely agree results await before declaring his hire a success, but he is a hard working pro in every sense of those words.
 
Our big error was not hiring Bob McKillop all those years ago. All will remember the fateful comments that Ron Rutledge made that McKillop was basically too white and couldn’t recruit 125th Street. We probably wouldn’t have been in this scenario many coaching mistakes later.

Bob McKillop? Still winning... he’s got a handful of seasons below third place in his conference since 1989 and figured out how to scout and recruit an nba MVP. Even this year, 30 years after starting at Davidson and in a tougher league, they’re picked near the top of the A-10 polls. Forget Mark Few and Gonzaga. SJU very well could have had the same consistency and things might have been very different. Instead we’ve torn down our program a multitude of times.

Biggest mistake began and ended right there.
 
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[quote="MCNPA" post=360257]Our big error was not hiring Bob McKillop all those years ago. All will remember the fateful comments that Ron Rutledge made that McKillop was basically too white and couldn’t recruit 125th Street. We probably wouldn’t have been in this scenario many coaching mistakes later.

Bob McKillop? Still winning... he’s got a handful of seasons below third place in his conference since 1989 and figured out how to scout and recruit an nba MVP. Even this year, 30 years after starting at Davidson and in a tougher league, they’re picked near the top of the A-10 polls. Forget Mark Few and Gonzaga. SJU very well could have had the same consistency and things might have been very different. Instead we’ve torn down our program a multitude of times.

Biggest mistake began and ended right there.[/quote]

The ironic thing is neither could Ron Rutledge. Louie and staff were good but never got anywhere near that next level consistently and their recruiting was just that, good, not great.
 
My memory is of Francesa noting on air that Jarvis was a “no show “ at annual President’s dinner and was trying to get fired to avoid losing season.
 
[quote="MCNPA" post=360257]Our big error was not hiring Bob McKillop all those years ago. All will remember the fateful comments that Ron Rutledge made that McKillop was basically too white and couldn’t recruit 125th Street. We probably wouldn’t have been in this scenario many coaching mistakes later.

Bob McKillop? Still winning... he’s got a handful of seasons below third place in his conference since 1989 and figured out how to scout and recruit an nba MVP. Even this year, 30 years after starting at Davidson and in a tougher league, they’re picked near the top of the A-10 polls. Forget Mark Few and Gonzaga. SJU very well could have had the same consistency and things might have been very different. Instead we’ve torn down our program a multitude of times.

Biggest mistake began and ended right there.[/quote]

McKillop is a fine coach. He'd have been a good hire, but I think the biggest mistake we made hiring a coach was hiring Jarvis and not Jay Wright.
 
Lavin started off with a bang, but faded quickly. It's still clear as day in my head that he had no clue how to coach. Anyone remember that UCLA fan post about how he's basically a snake oil salesman? About how he had a great vocabulary and looked the part, but was just not a good coach and how no players develop? That was 100% true. Pointer was good his Senior year, but he showed pretty much nothing his first 3 years. He woke up at the 11th hour. Lavin had a tendency to recruit pretty high level recruits, however they almost always had problems off the court. It seemed like for every good class, half of the kids were ineligible. Jordan is in jail, we threw punches at Notre Dame after getting whipped, Obekpa couldn't put a blunt down, Keith Thomas scandal, etc. Glad those days are over.

Remember the weave? We'd literally just pass the ball in a weave on offense until there was 5 seconds left on the shot clock then chuck and pray. And usually miss. That was our offense. Defense was decent. But we could never score outside of a few games vs. Fordham and Cuse where we couldn't miss. I remember watching games under Lavin where we had no clue what we were doing, no system, no development, and you went into almost every game very nervous instead of confident. Mike Anderson may not be the answer either (hope he is) but at least he's a legitimate college basketball coach who has a real track record of winning, developing, has a system, and puts in effort. The key to him will be how well he can recruit. If he can routinely get those high level 3 star guys with some 4's mixed in and some real big men consistently, he can do very well here IMO. Time will tell, because you can't keep getting 2 star kids like have been for next year and beyond.
 
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