(NCAA-WEST/Providence) #10 Arkansas, Sat., Mar. 22, 2:40p, CBS

Marillac2 said:
Not much to say on this one. Absolutely gutted by the loss. I've always felt like there was some inertia involved with winning and losing programs. Uconn showed us the winning side this tournament and we showed the losing end. Hopefully we've overcome the inertia of 20 years of losing with this trip.

It's horrible to lose with your best player only getting 16 minutes. That last foul was an easy no call. You have to be more aware as an official.

Pitino said all year not to count misses and then he pulls RJ for going 3-17? He barely missed most of those too. Practice what you preach, Coach. You live and you die with an All-American -- especially with Kadary out.

I am convinced we would have won with Kadary playing the last 4 minutes. He's so good. We were robbed.
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Fans should formally file a complaint with the NCAA Commission. It was not just Kadari's fifth foul that was misjudged. The Referee changed the winner and loser. St. John's not only lost the game, but also lost academic effects, economic effects and it made people angry caused fans to lose their health. If St. John's convert these into money, St. John's lost HUGE money because of referee's misjudge.
 
mjmaherjr said:
I still think the key was 6 fouls on our guards in the first half and Kadary fouling out and hardly playing. He has a calming influence and he makes others better. He plays the last 5 minutes I think we are booking our tix to San Francisco
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Exactly. The problem was that without Kadary available good decisions did not get made and the ball did not get to where it needed to be. Which was to continue feeding Zuby or making smart drives to the rim (Prey's being a good example). Kadary was able to get there as well but unfortunately had another "nothing will fall" game early and didn't get a chance to try late.
 
this is kind of a moot point because he fouled out but Kadary's midrange jumper died out around late -February and he never really got it back. Was a huge red flag but we kept winning so I didn't care too much. But in hindsight now, we really needed that added layer to our offense
 
kranmars said:
I absolutely understand your point.

But I also know how I would have felt if one of our two best player’s head was not fully engaged, when he was needed more than at any other moment in the season, with our other best player had already fouled out.
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You guys keep using that same old tired argument. Where was that attitude ALL year when he played that way at times and you were all falling over yourselves praising him? You act like this was new behavior, heretofore unseen play. The difference, SJU won all year, so no one really cared. The modern world, a stoned a$$ hero on Friday, Bum of the Month on Saturday.
 
logen said:
You guys keep using that same old tired argument. Where was that attitude ALL year when he played that way at times and you were all falling over yourselves praising him? You act like this was new behavior, heretofore unseen play. The difference, SJU won all year, so no one really cared. The modern world, a stoned a$$ hero on Friday, Bum of the Month on Saturday.
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Some of us were consistently critical of that play style because some of us have watched enough basketball to know that things that work against Seton Hall, DePaul, Butler and Omaha were not going to go well against Arkansas (or Auburn, Florida, Michigan, etc take your pick).
 
Game is over and we lost. I'm not sure what else there is to say. Did Rick make a mistake? Maybe, but I think RJ was just completely in his own head and Rick thought he couldn't help the team anymore. The bigger issue was Kadary fouling out with 6ish minutes left and the momentum swinging in our direction. That was the play of the game as far as I'm concerned, and it sucks.

RJ is a good kid and a gifted athlete. He did not have it that day; we all have bad days. It isn't right to bash him or besmirch his name because it felt like he just tried to do way too much. I hope he comes back and learns to play a more Kadary like game. He has the talent to get 3 feet from the basket anytime he wants, but he just needs to learn to recognize when to go for a shot or when to dump it to a big or a shooter in the corner. If he can be that type of player next year, then we'll have an even more special player on our team.
 
Critical mistakes, bad calls, missed assignments, NO assists (too much Hero Ball, per NCJ) shooting even worse than at CA against Butler, you will not win a game on a neutral court against a stout opponent with that recipe.

Without Zuby's play maybe a 15-20 point loss. Scott gave it everything. Devion too, but he made some shake your head plays down the stretch.

Should Rick have gone after the refs a little more, maybe, Cal did (and Boeheim and Hurley style) but not Rick's style so much.

Loved being in PVD, loved seeing my guys and so many Johnny Fans, loved the send-offs from the Hotel, unfortunate for those like NCJohnnie who came for Saturday only, they didn't get to see our single NCAA win.

Overall, getting a W the first day, made it good for a day at least, but we all expected a minimum of two wins the first weekend. Successful season with a sad end to it is the way I sum it up. No recriminations here. We accomplished tremendous things this year just not in the big Dance.

[Tip to beer lovers: Long Live Brewery a little off of the downtown area is a great hazy IPA brewery, all their beers were great].
 
logen said:
You guys keep using that same old tired argument. Where was that attitude ALL year when he played that way at times and you were all falling over yourselves praising him? You act like this was new behavior, heretofore unseen play. The difference, SJU won all year, so no one really cared. The modern world, a stoned a$$ hero on Friday, Bum of the Month on Saturday.
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Ooof. No one is calling him “bum of the month.” Holy hyperbole Batman!

It was just this one moment. And there may have been other factors like I mentioned previously, that between Zuby and the assistant coaches, they also saw that RJ’s head was not in it. Again, if ever you want RJ to be engaged fully is when Kadary fouled out.

Zuby for example was 100 percent into it.

Anyway, forget it. Game is long over, and so is my desire to discuss this.
 
GardenCity62 said:
This tournament has been so boring the most exciting event is the benching of RJ. We would all live to get the whole story from Pitino but that’s not going to happen. Did RJ say something to Pitino or the asst coaches that influenced his decision?
Perhaps a better question is what happened to the remaining SJU players?
With the exception of Zuby they seemed incapable of throwing the ball in the ocean.
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Completely agree.
But we all know young men make harsh decisions based on current feelings. Would like to see RJ one more year — a huge Pitino fan but no one is perfect and we all make mistakes. Most of our comebacks this year were because of KR and RJ. One was gone and a sub with very little playing time was inserted - We all witnessed what happened.
Even if Lefty came in and hit 4 threes to win the game the decision would still be second guessed if RJ leaves.
 
lawmanfan said:
RJ has a total of 3 offensive moves:

1. Drive into the paint and score or get fouled based on superior athleticism.
2. Get an offensive rebound and score based on superior athleticism.
3. Shoot a 3 off a feed from a teammate.

He has zero recognition of idea that you can draw the defense and then pass the basketball.

So in this game options 1 and 2 were not working because when matched up with equal athletic talent (which he did not face at any point in league play), the only thing that's left is for him to go stand in the corner and shoot a 3.

It would have been reasonable for Pitino to play him on that basis - don't put the ball on the floor, just stay on the perimeter and if you get a good look take the shot - but then you lose his offensive rebounding and you probably can't trust him not to revert to type and drive the lane anyway.

One of the problems with this team from the beginning was that it had no reliable offense outside of Zuby playing heroic basketball every night and "give the ball to RJ and he'll make something happen." Kadary can't shoot. Wilcher and Scott were inconsistent at best. Deivon Smith was hurt and he's also not the most structured basketball player in the world. Dunlap out for the year. Glover unable to defend and then hurt, out for the year. Liotopoulos, same problem as Glover until late in the season.

I think Pitino rode the horse he had as far as he could - and they STILL could have won that game despite the Kadary issue and RJ struggles if they just hit a few more layups or free throws.
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Well first, three tricks is definitely more than one. :) And second, take the ball to the basket, offensive rebound putback and three off a feed from a teammate are the way about 95% of all buckets are scored, so those are three pretty valuable skills! Also, as a reminder, RJ had been shooting over 40% from three since early January.

Look, I share your frustration with Luis' inability to use his ballhogging to his advantage and find an open teammate every once in a while. But you're making your arguments in a vaccuum. Whether or not options one or two had worked up until that point is not the question. The only question is: who was more likely to do any of those three things (or even facilitate for a teammate), Luis or someone less talented? The answer is clearly Luis, even if he had played like crap until then.

OK, enough about that. TO THE PORTAL!
 
lawmanfan said:
I don't think Pitino benched him to send him a message.

Pitino benched him because he decided that RJ was not going to help him win the game. RJ is largely a one-trick pony and that trick had not worked and there was no evidence that it was going to work (unless you count turning the ball over as "working").

There's no way to know whether Pitino was right or wrong, but I'm inclined to agree that he was right. It was definitely not "asinine." And it was not selfish unless you consider trying to win games - basically the only thing Pitino cares about - as selfish.

If you want to say that there was nobody on the bench Pitino could play that was likely be a positive contributor, you can say that. But he obviously reached the conclusion that (at least for this game) RJ was a negative contributor and even a net neutral would be an improvement. And it was a fair conclusion.
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RJ is one of our best foul shooters and he just sunk 2. He was a better defender and rebounder than any of subs. He had 9 points and 7 rebounds in the game Could have had a double / double.
I think he needed a motivational talk that this is your time - 5 minutes left and you can help bring us to the next round not a punishment.
Too much ego of the coach and will have to apologize at some point — unless RJ did something wrong .
He is being criticized all morning from good basketball minds.
It also brought so much attention to RJ and definitely hurt is draft stock. I just hope he and Pitino have cleared the air —.
 
So, my last words for a while, bummed about the loss, as we all are, but the circumstances make it doubly so.
I am sure there are those on here who maybe could cite examples but I don’t have at my fingertips an example where a player of Luis’ stature was voluntarily benched by a coach in a game of that magnitude.
That so many agree with the move after Luis had many, many clutch moments down the stretch of so many close games blows my mind but to each his own.
You dance with who you “brung” and Luis earned the respect to be on that court with the year he had, but do be it.
 
lawmanfan said:
Some of us were consistently critical of that play style because some of us have watched enough basketball to know that things that work against Seton Hall, DePaul, Butler and Omaha were not going to go well against Arkansas (or Auburn, Florida, Michigan, etc take your pick).
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As Moose implied, fans didn't say anything because RJ was scoring and we were winning. I know myself and a few others were saying things re: RJ's chaotic forays to the basket early in the season AND early on in the conference season. He was nailing the midrange most of the season and caught fire behind the arc late in the season which added a dimension to his game. There were still times he'd play outta control, but we kept winning and he kept scoring, so it was ignored. You just hoped he wouldn't revert back to bad habits or RJ, along with our team, would do enough to where we'd overcome it.

I, myself, would've inserted him back into the during the latter minutes, but I can understand the "other side" of the argument as well. As I said during the game, "RJ is a mess." He was totally out of it.
 
Redenbacher said:
That is not "proof." You cannot PROVE that leaving Luis in would have led to better results, you are simply ASSUMING that it would have.
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Well we know one thing for sure. Plan B without RJ did not work out so well. Based on experience he would have not done worse but could have done much better - but we will never know.
Without RJ and KD presence on the court we lacked threats.
You may have seen another all American Clayton kill UConn in the last 4 minutes.
Thanks for all the debates but I hope this decision and Ricks post game does not send the kid packing.
I know we can buy someone else but he has 2 years in the system.
Ps I have watched every Pitino game since he came back to the country. It was a bad decision. Period. !!!
 
redstorm to redmen said:
Fans should formally file a complaint with the NCAA Commission. It was not just Kadari's fifth foul that was misjudged. The Referee changed the winner and loser. St. John's not only lost the game, but also lost academic effects, economic effects and it made people angry caused fans to lose their health. If St. John's convert these into money, St. John's lost HUGE money because of referee's misjudge.
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The NCAA beats us easier than a PG going at Vince for 30 feet away from the basket.
 
mjmaherjr said:
I still think the key was 6 fouls on our guards in the first half and Kadary fouling out and hardly playing. He has a calming influence and he makes others better. He plays the last 5 minutes I think we are booking our tix to San Francisco
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I agree we win if KR is on the Court for the last 4 minutes , without RJ

But, I do believe we win the game if RJ is on the
Court for the last 4 minutes , without KR .

Luis had just made 2 free throws to get us to within 2 points . Why pull him ?

Putting in Lefty was a awful Coaching decision to replace RJ. Why wasn’t it Ayo ?

Nobody has mentioned Smith in all this controversy .
He missed a few critical free throws and made the most egregious error in passing the ball straight to the Arkansas player who was not even near him ,
They scored and that was the ball game !

As for RJ , Smith drives equality as out of control to the basket as anyone and misses bunny after bunny . Like he did Saturday and he doesn’t run the offense like KR ,

Scott was way off too . 1-10 in a Championship level game isn’t going to get it done

Coming back to Smith , he doesn’t get Zuby the ball anywhere near as well as KR

To my way of thinking and it’s only a opinion , there was a lot wrong on Saturday and I’m disbelieving the crap being thrown on RJ , as if it was all his fault .


And , while no one here wants to admit it , Cal outcoached Pitino . His plan was to take KR out of the game and did so . Rick had no counter move , benching Kadary for 24 minutes , before he fouled out on a questionable call .

Even Lappas said, “ you have to let your Star 5 th year player take his chances in the Court, regardless of the foul situation .”

Cal rolled the dice with his Players in foul trouble , Rick did not .

And , lastly , Rick’s presser was a disgrace . He was just short of belligerent with the Reporter and his answer on Luis benching was a low blow But , he’s shot his mouth off before, when he loses a game .
Last year , he threw his whole team under the Bus and his staff too , for poor recruiting .

Remember no lateral quickness , or athletic , etc ?

Pitinio is a great Coach and did a great job for St John’s all year . He has restored a competitive status to the BB program in 2 years .

Saturday was not his finest performance . In many ways . Giving him a pass on the RJ situation with a very poor answer isn’t a good move .
 
I think I’ll hold off on a hot take until we find out with exactly what happened. Unfortunately Rick ain’t talking. So far I haven’t heard RJ say anything specific.

Some who actually watched the Vice series may recall that RP was pissed when RJ didn’t run the play he wanted in our loss at Creighton. With a Coach like Rick we don’t know if their was a play or plays in this game that the Coach wanted run that the player did not follow.

I admit I am just speculating but I think some would be mindful to look before you leap.
 
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