I couldn’t agree more on both paragraphs.
Mets Hot Stove Talk--2025-2026
- Thread starter BrooklynRed
- Start date
I haven't seen any sign of load management from the Mets or other teams (other than maybe the Dodgers now?). Limiting pitches isn't enough.
Why do teams let key arms pitch 4 meaningless innings when they fall behind huge early? Everyone knows that is a finite resource. Let's say you have 170 innings in a guy....you're going to waste 15-20 a year on games you have a 5% chance of winning?
At the first sign of fatigue or soreness, put them on the 10 day IL. Skip a start here and there or stack two pitchers in one day.
If good teams proactively give 20 starts a year to Megill type pitchers, they are still probably going to win half of those games.
https://www.si.com/more-sports/2009/06/15/james-pitchcounts
Bill James:
"Baseball is a better game for the fans when you have two starting pitchers engaged in a duel, rather than each pitching five innings and turning it over to a long series of interchangeable relievers. Joe Wood vs. Walter Johnson, man. Nobody reminisces about Clint Brown vs. Al Benton."
Nolan Ryan threw 26 complete games in back-to-back years -- 1973 and 1974 -- and he threw 300 innings in each of those years. As far as I know, nobody counted pitches then, but can you even IMAGINE the number of pitches Nolan Ryan must have thrown in, say, 1974? The guy set the modern record that year with 383 strikeouts -- here we are, 35 years later, and that record still stands. But Ryan also walked 204 batters that year -- nobody has come CLOSE to that number in the last 35 years. According to Tom Tango's pitch-count estimator, Ryan AVERAGED 134 pitches per start that year, and almost certainly threw more than 200 pitches on a couple of occasions.
To point about meaningless innings, teams also don’t want to blow out their bullpen because like starting pitchers, they are on pitch counts and can’t pitch more than one inning. Again not training to let them go multiple innings and no one carries a long reliever anymore.I can6 speak for the Mets, but the Yankees have had pitchers push back a start or miss a start or two to recover better. This year of the top of my head that included Schmidt (who still needed season ending surgery), Fried and Schlittler.
There is a lack of starting pitching in the MLB which is why you have teams now doing “bullpen” games started (by the Rays) even in post season games.
The piggybacking or tandem bit is using two of your five starters in one game and is just another version of “five and fly”. Pitchers (both starters and relievers) need to be conditioned to go longer. I think it is ridiculous that you have a so called No. 1 starter or ace that you can’t rely on to go 8 innings and possibly give your bullpen a rest.
RedmanMike
Well-known member
The issue isn't pitch counts or innings limits - it's mechanics.
Why is it that Gibson, Seaver, Ryan, Clemens, Palmer, Carlton etc (the list goes on an on) can pitch more than 4,000 innings in their major league career (with many more innings in the minors) and never have Tommy John surgery, and now pitchers routinely get it in high school and college? It's because pitchers today have poor mechanics. When the front shoulder turns to the plate and the front foot lands, the throwing elbow has to be up. Today, almost all pitchers' arms are still flat at that point, and often the wrist is still turned to centerfield and not toward the plate. That's because for many years kids were taught the Power T (and told to "show the ball to centerfield"). That was a terrible way to teach kids to throw. It lead to poor mechanics, and to arms injuries.
Look at all the pitchers I mentioned above - they all had different motions, but when the front foot lands, the elbow is up and the arms isn't flat.
It's as simple as that.
Why is it that Gibson, Seaver, Ryan, Clemens, Palmer, Carlton etc (the list goes on an on) can pitch more than 4,000 innings in their major league career (with many more innings in the minors) and never have Tommy John surgery, and now pitchers routinely get it in high school and college? It's because pitchers today have poor mechanics. When the front shoulder turns to the plate and the front foot lands, the throwing elbow has to be up. Today, almost all pitchers' arms are still flat at that point, and often the wrist is still turned to centerfield and not toward the plate. That's because for many years kids were taught the Power T (and told to "show the ball to centerfield"). That was a terrible way to teach kids to throw. It lead to poor mechanics, and to arms injuries.
Look at all the pitchers I mentioned above - they all had different motions, but when the front foot lands, the elbow is up and the arms isn't flat.
It's as simple as that.
The biggest fallacies in modern baseball, and there are many others, are pitch counts and launch angles, both driven by the advent of analytics; weird science augmented by those who never put on a glove or held a bat.
IMO, the criticisms of Mendoza and Boone, and I have certainly been right there criticizing Mendoza, in hindsight and with the rooting emotion absent, are largely whistling in the dark because they are not making decisions and moves based on instinct and reactions in the moment but merely by looking at pieces of paper in order to do what they have “been told” by the geeks and their computers in the background.
Complete games and small ball are largely dead because the baseball powers that be decided to kill them.
IMO, the criticisms of Mendoza and Boone, and I have certainly been right there criticizing Mendoza, in hindsight and with the rooting emotion absent, are largely whistling in the dark because they are not making decisions and moves based on instinct and reactions in the moment but merely by looking at pieces of paper in order to do what they have “been told” by the geeks and their computers in the background.
Complete games and small ball are largely dead because the baseball powers that be decided to kill them.
I used to agree with the not wasting the bullpen logic, but a paradigm shift seems long overdue there. There are plenty of AAA and AAAA caliber players that can give you competitive innings. Keep a healthy taxi squad with minor league options. The Mets ended up doing that in a reactionary way this past season instead of doing it proactively. Sometimes guys would get shelled but there were a ton of really competitive outings.
I hate that guys can't pitch 200 innings just as much as everyone else. I think we are all in the same boat there. There just aren't a lot of CC and Bartolo types around anymore. Cease may be one of the last. So it's time to adapt. Every team in baseball will have a 6-man rotation in 5 years.
You have to have your top arms fresh and healthy for September/October -- just reverse engineer it from there. Again, I think there is a ton of value in guys like Senga and Peterson that can give you 24-25 starts and 135 innings at an all-star level. Trying to get 180 innings out of them is like trying to get blood from a stone and result in 50 innings of slop.
Most people don’t realize, especially when bitching about pitching changes, is that most of that is “pre-determined”, at organization meetings that happen EVERY day with the Manager AND the “analytics” people. Mendoza has mentioned these meetings on several occasions. It’s not the “information” exchange that bothers me it’s the rigidity to adhering to something that may be moving against what was planned.
Most of the in-game decisions are not coming from the dugout anymore.
To our discussion, here are the innings pitched for the rotations of the four remaining teams:
Dodgers:
Yamamoto - 173.2 (2.49 ERA)
Kershaw - 112.2 (3.36 ERA)
May - 104.0 (4.85 ER)
Glasnow - 90.1 (3.19 ERA)
Sheehan - 73.1 (2.82 ERA)
Snell - 61.1 (2.35 ERA)
Mariners
Woo - 186.2 (2.94 ERA)
Castillo 180.2 (3.54 ERA)
Gilbert 131.0 (3.44 ERA)
Kirby 126.0 (4.21 ERA)
Miller 90.1 (5.68 ERA)
Hancock 90.0 (4.90 ERA)
Brewers
Peralta - 176.2 (2.70 ERA)
Priester - 157.1 (3.32 ERA)
Quintana -131.2 (3.96 ERA)
Patrick - 119.2 (3.53 ERA)
Misiorowski - 66.0 (4.36 ERA)
Woodruff - 64.2 (3.20 ERA)
Blue Jays
Gausman - 193.0 (3.59 ERA)
Bassitt - 170.1 (3.96 ERA)
Berrios - 166.0 (4.17 ERA)
Lauer - 104.2 (3.18 ERA)
Scherzer - 85.0 (5.19 ERA)
Francis - 64.0 (6.05 ERA)
Look at the innings pitched for the 3rd and 4th starters. Why not target these innings going in? Lots of guys like Berrios had pretty stark 1st and 2nd half splits (3.75 ERA v 5.15). Get a few horses to throw 170-180 like Holmes (especially next year) and McLean. Maybe Dylan Cease? Treat the rest of the guys with extreme care. Senga and Peterson have proven they can give you 2.90 ERAs in limited innings. Schedule that. 5+ days or rest. Scheduled piggyback outings to keep the overall innings in check. Skipped starts. 10 day IL trips at the first sign of any issue. They go down early...pull them and put in a non-essential AAAA caliber guy to eat innings.
If you get blown out and don't have to use any of your A or B relievers, is that really a terrible thing?
Dodgers:
Yamamoto - 173.2 (2.49 ERA)
Kershaw - 112.2 (3.36 ERA)
May - 104.0 (4.85 ER)
Glasnow - 90.1 (3.19 ERA)
Sheehan - 73.1 (2.82 ERA)
Snell - 61.1 (2.35 ERA)
Mariners
Woo - 186.2 (2.94 ERA)
Castillo 180.2 (3.54 ERA)
Gilbert 131.0 (3.44 ERA)
Kirby 126.0 (4.21 ERA)
Miller 90.1 (5.68 ERA)
Hancock 90.0 (4.90 ERA)
Brewers
Peralta - 176.2 (2.70 ERA)
Priester - 157.1 (3.32 ERA)
Quintana -131.2 (3.96 ERA)
Patrick - 119.2 (3.53 ERA)
Misiorowski - 66.0 (4.36 ERA)
Woodruff - 64.2 (3.20 ERA)
Blue Jays
Gausman - 193.0 (3.59 ERA)
Bassitt - 170.1 (3.96 ERA)
Berrios - 166.0 (4.17 ERA)
Lauer - 104.2 (3.18 ERA)
Scherzer - 85.0 (5.19 ERA)
Francis - 64.0 (6.05 ERA)
Look at the innings pitched for the 3rd and 4th starters. Why not target these innings going in? Lots of guys like Berrios had pretty stark 1st and 2nd half splits (3.75 ERA v 5.15). Get a few horses to throw 170-180 like Holmes (especially next year) and McLean. Maybe Dylan Cease? Treat the rest of the guys with extreme care. Senga and Peterson have proven they can give you 2.90 ERAs in limited innings. Schedule that. 5+ days or rest. Scheduled piggyback outings to keep the overall innings in check. Skipped starts. 10 day IL trips at the first sign of any issue. They go down early...pull them and put in a non-essential AAAA caliber guy to eat innings.
If you get blown out and don't have to use any of your A or B relievers, is that really a terrible thing?
And to highlight how the game has changed so much, here are the innings pitched from 2000 Mets season:
Hampton - 217.2 innings (3.14 ERA)
Leiter - 208.0 innings (3.20 ERA)
Rusch - 190.2 innings (4.01 ERA)
Reed - 184.0 innings (4.11 ERA)
Jones - 154.2 innings (5.06 ERA)
Those guys made a combined 151 starts! *Patrick Mahomes' dad made 5*
Hampton - 217.2 innings (3.14 ERA)
Leiter - 208.0 innings (3.20 ERA)
Rusch - 190.2 innings (4.01 ERA)
Reed - 184.0 innings (4.11 ERA)
Jones - 154.2 innings (5.06 ERA)
Those guys made a combined 151 starts! *Patrick Mahomes' dad made 5*
Pretty proud dad moment for me...my 12 year old son corrected me on how long deGrom and Alonso were teammates. Last year he couldn't name 3 Mets and now he's yelling from the other room "Papa, did you know the Mets traded Tom Seaver AND Nolan Ryan!"
Welcome aboard the misery train, little man.
Welcome aboard the misery train, little man.
RedmanMike
Well-known member
Raising your kid to be a Mets fan is basically child abuse at this point. (My little guy was singing "Meet the Mets" at two years old...)
Chriscin33
Well-known member
Add the Jets and ACS should be living in your house!
It’s a good thing my son is 22 now or I probably would be reported.Add the Jets and ACS should be living in your house!
I am ok with the Mets part because he is from Queens but the Jets can damage anyone.
I love how limits for things always coincide with multiples of 10's. It's the 3rd time around the order is when they get beat up.
All of these relievers were starters at one time. I think you should just have 2 pitchers go 2 times around the lineup and then hand it off to your closer. You could carry less pitchers and specialized players (Pinch Runner/Hitter/Defensive replacements). Bet you the analytics would prove me right.
All of these relievers were starters at one time. I think you should just have 2 pitchers go 2 times around the lineup and then hand it off to your closer. You could carry less pitchers and specialized players (Pinch Runner/Hitter/Defensive replacements). Bet you the analytics would prove me right.
Spocky Ramone
Well-known member
The Goose is the poster child for this argument.