In The end, It All Makes Sense

R

Ray Morgan

Well-known member
As fans, most were thrilled with the Lavin hire, with a bunch of sweet sixteens and elite eights. We read the blogs, followed the high school rankings, and watched Lavin hitting the recruiting target every time. A 3rd or 4th ranked first recruiting class. So 3 don't qualify and 1 transfers, and we're up against it. But it makes the next year, when Sampson re-signs and joins us, something to be excited about. The blogs say we beat out Kansas for him. We also get Branch, a lock down defender and top 50 in HS. Then Branch is hobbling and Harrison is suspended, so we're up against it. But Sanchez is cleared. We hear the coach-speak and the blogs. He would start on some NBA teams. Jordan picks us over Temple and UCLA, and we get excited for next year. Also Max transfers to SJU. He can't miss from 3 on yuotube, so we get excited for next year. We struggle early this year against some mediocre opposition. Many say we are just going through the motions, as it's tough to get up for lesser competition.

We get the better opposition, and lose to them all. And it all makes sense. I hang with an older crowd. Some former college players who knocked around the game for years, assistants in junior college. No big deal, but they know the game. I talk up our talent, and who Lavin beat out to get them. They laugh. If these guys were as good as you say, they tell me, they would be at Kentucky, Duke or Kansas. But we out recruited Kansas for Sampson. They laugh again, and say that if Kansas really coveted Sampson, he would be at Kansas. They need to fill out their bench too, and why not take a flyer on a high level athlete that can sit and learn from a good staff, and not be asked for much. So, they say, they and their handlers know that what Lavin is selling sounds good-they can start at SJU and be the man. But what about NBA ready Sanchez? They laugh at the story that he just wants to experience college life. They say he probably needs a season of college to showcase what he has for a chance at a career in Europe. If he was NBA ready, he would have signed years ago. We talk of Branch and Hooper. Couldn't get minutes at Texas A&M at Harvard? Forget the reasons you read. They couldn't get minutes because they weren't good enough.

So I ask them to watch some games. They would rather play bocce or go to the casino, but they watch to humor me. They say the same thing. Team is poorly coached and has no shooters. What did you expect from Lavin, they say. Couldn't coach then, can't coach now. And please don't make me watch them again, they say. Not good basketball.

And now, it all makes sense. But we are fans, so we lost objectivity. So what's the answer? Their advice-hire a coach with local roots that knows how to win and emphasizes the three point shot. No shooters want to come here, they say, since using the long ball has never been a part of the school's game plan. Shooters want to play for a coach that stresses ball movement and freeing up shooters for open shots. Can't win without shooters with the 3 point shot being part of the college game. Even marginal ex coaches in their 60's and 70's know that.
 
I think you should go out and get a set of balls and play bocce with your 80 year old friends. You'll probably have more fun playing with them.

We aren't Kansas, aren't Duke, aren't UNC. We never have been, so laughing that we don't recruit like them, isn't genius, is it Ray?

Ask them if they know what Norm Roberts record was for 6 years here. No wait I'll tell you 81-101.
Ask them if they know that norm Roberts had a 32-70 record in conference at St. John's. That's right, Ray. 42 games under .500.
Ask them if they know that Lavin inherited the worst roster management this side of Isaiah Thomas. Why? Because "nice guy" Norm could give two craps about 2011, when he was trying to save his own job in 2010.
Ask your friends how Jay wright did his first three seasons at Villanova, ray. I'll tell you 52-46. His conference record? 21-27! Yes, the universally respected Jay Wright, who turned down Kentucky. You would have run him out of town after three seasons.


Ask them how Sampson won BE ROY. Ask them what they thought of Mo Harkless being the 15th pick in the draft after 1 year at SJU. Ask them where else Rysheed Jordan was recruited, and and if they know he is the 17th ranked incoming freshman. Ask them if other schools thought so little of Nurideen Lindsay before he chose St. John's and that he had broken Wilt Chamberlain scoring records at Overbrook HS. Ask them if they know that Branch played 18 minutes a game as a freshman at Texas A&M, and looked like a poised top 8 point guard against us when we played them. Ask them if Chris Obekpa really didn't lead the nation in blocked shots. they seem to know an awful lot for guys who don't watch our games.

While your at it, ask them if they thought voting for Richard Nixon in 72 was a bad idea after all. After all, hindsight is perfect. Your friends probably bet on the dogs after the race is over, picking a winner every time.

Yes, the team isn't Kentucky. clap clap clap. We really thought they were, didn't we? Who were the idiots predicting the conference title this year, when coaches picked us 5th? And for that matter, who are the idiots giving up after 3 conference games. You must have been a riot when your kid brought home his first marking period report card and you declared him learning disabled.
 
As fans, most were thrilled with the Lavin hire, with a bunch of sweet sixteens and elite eights. We read the blogs, followed the high school rankings, and watched Lavin hitting the recruiting target every time. A 3rd or 4th ranked first recruiting class. So 3 don't qualify and 1 transfers, and we're up against it. But it makes the next year, when Sampson re-signs and joins us, something to be excited about. The blogs say we beat out Kansas for him. We also get Branch, a lock down defender and top 50 in HS. Then Branch is hobbling and Harrison is suspended, so we're up against it. But Sanchez is cleared. We hear the coach-speak and the blogs. He would start on some NBA teams. Jordan picks us over Temple and UCLA, and we get excited for next year. Also Max transfers to SJU. He can't miss from 3 on yuotube, so we get excited for next year. We struggle early this year against some mediocre opposition. Many say we are just going through the motions, as it's tough to get up for lesser competition.

We get the better opposition, and lose to them all. And it all makes sense. I hang with an older crowd. Some former college players who knocked around the game for years, assistants in junior college. No big deal, but they know the game. I talk up our talent, and who Lavin beat out to get them. They laugh. If these guys were as good as you say, they tell me, they would be at Kentucky, Duke or Kansas. But we out recruited Kansas for Sampson. They laugh again, and say that if Kansas really coveted Sampson, he would be at Kansas. They need to fill out their bench too, and why not take a flyer on a high level athlete that can sit and learn from a good staff, and not be asked for much. So, they say, they and their handlers know that what Lavin is selling sounds good-they can start at SJU and be the man. But what about NBA ready Sanchez? They laugh at the story that he just wants to experience college life. They say he probably needs a season of college to showcase what he has for a chance at a career in Europe. If he was NBA ready, he would have signed years ago. We talk of Branch and Hooper. Couldn't get minutes at Texas A&M at Harvard? Forget the reasons you read. They couldn't get minutes because they weren't good enough.

So I ask them to watch some games. They would rather play bocce or go to the casino, but they watch to humor me. They say the same thing. Team is poorly coached and has no shooters. What did you expect from Lavin, they say. Couldn't coach then, can't coach now. And please don't make me watch them again, they say. Not good basketball.

And now, it all makes sense. But we are fans, so we lost objectivity. So what's the answer? Their advice-hire a coach with local roots that knows how to win and emphasizes the three point shot. No shooters want to come here, they say, since using the long ball has never been a part of the school's game plan. Shooters want to play for a coach that stresses ball movement and freeing up shooters for open shots. Can't win without shooters with the 3 point shot being part of the college game. Even marginal ex coaches in their 60's and 70's know that.
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Great post. I believed what your pals told you while Lavin was recruiting these players. You organized it great. This years Kansas team is not it's best, but just look at those guys. Our kids look like HS players. Coach Steve sold what he had. Playing time and New York. I don't so much agree with the Steve can't coach part, but don't rule out your pals being more right then me. I like the idea of Lavs being able to recruit nationally. I hope coach stays and gets us shooters. I also like guys who rip down boards while snot runs from their nose. The gimme's our kids missed Saturday ruined them. If those go in Nova chasing us and fouling, and we win that game. Steve helped Sampson get off to a good start last year, but comes a point the player himself gatta want it.
 
It all makes sense......... 4 years ago UCLA fans warned us. "No hes older & wiser" we said, "he aquired more b-ball IQ while away" we said, "you guys are just bitter" we said.


They were right. We were just desperate homers who needed to believe that the long awaited turnaround was finally here (some still in denial).
 
I think you should go out and get a set of balls and play bocce with your 80 year old friends. You'll probably have more fun playing with them.

We aren't Kansas, aren't Duke, aren't UNC. We never have been, so laughing that we don't recruit like them, isn't genius, is it Ray?

Ask them if they know what Norm Roberts record was for 6 years here. No wait I'll tell you 81-101.
Ask them if they know that norm Roberts had a 32-70 record in conference at St. John's. That's right, Ray. 42 games under .500.
Ask them if they know that Lavin inherited the worst roster management this side of Isaiah Thomas. Why? Because "nice guy" Norm could give two craps about 2011, when he was trying to save his own job in 2010.
Ask your friends how Jay wright did his first three seasons at Villanova, ray. I'll tell you 52-46. His conference record? 21-27! Yes, the universally respected Jay Wright, who turned down Kentucky. You would have run him out of town after three seasons.


Ask them how Sampson won BE ROY. Ask them what they thought of Mo Harkless being the 15th pick in the draft after 1 year at SJU. Ask them where else Rysheed Jordan was recruited, and and if they know he is the 17th ranked incoming freshman. Ask them if other schools thought so little of Nurideen Lindsay before he chose St. John's and that he had broken Wilt Chamberlain scoring records at Overbrook HS. Ask them if they know that Branch played 18 minutes a game as a freshman at Texas A&M, and looked like a poised top 8 point guard against us when we played them. Ask them if Chris Obekpa really didn't lead the nation in blocked shots. they seem to know an awful lot for guys who don't watch our games.

While your at it, ask them if they thought voting for Richard Nixon in 72 was a bad idea after all. After all, hindsight is perfect. Your friends probably bet on the dogs after the race is over, picking a winner every time.

Yes, the team isn't Kentucky. clap clap clap. We really thought they were, didn't we? Who were the idiots predicting the conference title this year, when coaches picked us 5th? And for that matter, who are the idiots giving up after 3 conference games. You must have been a riot when your kid brought home his first marking period report card and you declared him learning disabled.
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Root root for the home team. If they don't win it's a shame. I'm all for that. Keep making excuses, if you think that makes you a more loyal fan. You spend a fortune on the coach and staff, you should expect results. Next year, you will be excited again. Sampson will have another year of experience. Harrison will be playing for the NBA scouts and have a great year. Jordan will be over his home sickness and be ready to take us to great new heights. I will keep my expectations reasonable. I will root for the team with all of their faults. I will watch and wait and hope. But I won't be fooled.
 
I think you should go out and get a set of balls and play bocce with your 80 year old friends. You'll probably have more fun playing with them.

We aren't Kansas, aren't Duke, aren't UNC. We never have been, so laughing that we don't recruit like them, isn't genius, is it Ray?

Ask them if they know what Norm Roberts record was for 6 years here. No wait I'll tell you 81-101.
Ask them if they know that norm Roberts had a 32-70 record in conference at St. John's. That's right, Ray. 42 games under .500.
Ask them if they know that Lavin inherited the worst roster management this side of Isaiah Thomas. Why? Because "nice guy" Norm could give two craps about 2011, when he was trying to save his own job in 2010.
Ask your friends how Jay wright did his first three seasons at Villanova, ray. I'll tell you 52-46. His conference record? 21-27! Yes, the universally respected Jay Wright, who turned down Kentucky. You would have run him out of town after three seasons.


Ask them how Sampson won BE ROY. Ask them what they thought of Mo Harkless being the 15th pick in the draft after 1 year at SJU. Ask them where else Rysheed Jordan was recruited, and and if they know he is the 17th ranked incoming freshman. Ask them if other schools thought so little of Nurideen Lindsay before he chose St. John's and that he had broken Wilt Chamberlain scoring records at Overbrook HS. Ask them if they know that Branch played 18 minutes a game as a freshman at Texas A&M, and looked like a poised top 8 point guard against us when we played them. Ask them if Chris Obekpa really didn't lead the nation in blocked shots. they seem to know an awful lot for guys who don't watch our games.

While your at it, ask them if they thought voting for Richard Nixon in 72 was a bad idea after all. After all, hindsight is perfect. Your friends probably bet on the dogs after the race is over, picking a winner every time.

Yes, the team isn't Kentucky. clap clap clap. We really thought they were, didn't we? Who were the idiots predicting the conference title this year, when coaches picked us 5th? And for that matter, who are the idiots giving up after 3 conference games. You must have been a riot when your kid brought home his first marking period report card and you declared him learning disabled.
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I'm not giving up after 3 games. I am like the team, Coach Lavin, and Randall P. McMurphy.. Just warming up, Beast, just warming up.
 
Should we dig up the old thread where Ray Morgan praised Lavin.

What was the title of the thread?

"dumb fans blame the coach"???
 
Should we dig up the old thread where Ray Morgan praised Lavin.

What was the title of the thread?

"dumb fans blame the coach"???
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Not the title of the thread. And I didn't turn around and bash the coach. Just passing along some thoughts from guys who can be objective. I still believe that it's a players game. My knock on Lavin is that if you recruit athletes that are behind the curve in the skills department, you better be able to coach them up. I'm not seeing that yet.
 
I think Ray's post is right on. Unfortunately, Coach Lavin is not a good game coach and the offense is non existent. No less than John Wooden said years ago that with the addition of the 3 point shot in college basketball, if he were coaching he would change his offense to incorporate a lot of 3's and on freeing up shooters. We don't have shooters or an offense. I'm staying the course because that's what St. John's fans do. I'll give Lavin a little slack because of the changes. The recruiting situation was as bad as it could be when he got here, some of his first recruits didn't qualify, he got sick, his dad passed away during the season, coach Dunlap left, Harkless left early. That's a lot of changes. But at some point you gotta develop players and they gotta play better. You have to come up and install a cohesive offense, players have to improve on their weaknesses. If you need a Dunlap like assistant to make that happen, go get one. It worked once. Lavin is obviously an excellent recruiter, but we're in year 4. He has one more year on his deal and decisions have to be made on whether he's coming back for more years. Nobody would want to work on the last year of their deal without knowing if they're coming back. Recruiting would really suffer. So the decision has to be made by the end of this year. The idea is that the team will gell by February is another crazy, maddening thought. If we don't have a 20 win season and a tourney bid in year 4 where are we? I never thought, like some posters, that we were headed for a 26 win season. 20 wins in year 4 with these players and a softer of conference schedule was within reach.

The team's effort on defense was better against Villanova. If Ray's buddy's saw the Georgetown game they would have been a lot more critical than they were. The most alarming thing is that players are not improving. We're in a tough league with good coaching. The last coach couldn't get top recruits because he had no history of getting players into the NBA. Lavin has that history. It can work here too. I'd love to see it work out and have him stay, but I'm skeptical about whether we're going to win at the level we need to.
 
Your right the players arnt improving. Which player is better this year than last. W the exception of DLOs attitude problem, but he is still a volume shooter w a mediocre FG%.IMO Lavins coaching ability is no better than average.
 
As fans, most were thrilled with the Lavin hire, with a bunch of sweet sixteens and elite eights. We read the blogs, followed the high school rankings, and watched Lavin hitting the recruiting target every time. A 3rd or 4th ranked first recruiting class. So 3 don't qualify and 1 transfers, and we're up against it. But it makes the next year, when Sampson re-signs and joins us, something to be excited about. The blogs say we beat out Kansas for him. We also get Branch, a lock down defender and top 50 in HS. Then Branch is hobbling and Harrison is suspended, so we're up against it. But Sanchez is cleared. We hear the coach-speak and the blogs. He would start on some NBA teams. Jordan picks us over Temple and UCLA, and we get excited for next year. Also Max transfers to SJU. He can't miss from 3 on yuotube, so we get excited for next year. We struggle early this year against some mediocre opposition. Many say we are just going through the motions, as it's tough to get up for lesser competition.

We get the better opposition, and lose to them all. And it all makes sense. I hang with an older crowd. Some former college players who knocked around the game for years, assistants in junior college. No big deal, but they know the game. I talk up our talent, and who Lavin beat out to get them. They laugh. If these guys were as good as you say, they tell me, they would be at Kentucky, Duke or Kansas. But we out recruited Kansas for Sampson. They laugh again, and say that if Kansas really coveted Sampson, he would be at Kansas. They need to fill out their bench too, and why not take a flyer on a high level athlete that can sit and learn from a good staff, and not be asked for much. So, they say, they and their handlers know that what Lavin is selling sounds good-they can start at SJU and be the man. But what about NBA ready Sanchez? They laugh at the story that he just wants to experience college life. They say he probably needs a season of college to showcase what he has for a chance at a career in Europe. If he was NBA ready, he would have signed years ago. We talk of Branch and Hooper. Couldn't get minutes at Texas A&M at Harvard? Forget the reasons you read. They couldn't get minutes because they weren't good enough.

So I ask them to watch some games. They would rather play bocce or go to the casino, but they watch to humor me. They say the same thing. Team is poorly coached and has no shooters. What did you expect from Lavin, they say. Couldn't coach then, can't coach now. And please don't make me watch them again, they say. Not good basketball.

And now, it all makes sense. But we are fans, so we lost objectivity. So what's the answer? Their advice-hire a coach with local roots that knows how to win and emphasizes the three point shot. No shooters want to come here, they say, since using the long ball has never been a part of the school's game plan. Shooters want to play for a coach that stresses ball movement and freeing up shooters for open shots. Can't win without shooters with the 3 point shot being part of the college game. Even marginal ex coaches in their 60's and 70's know that.
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While I do agree with you, lets take a step back and put all of this in perspective.

Lavin walked into a tough spot. he got given a team filled with all seniors and had zero time to recruit anyone. Also, NO ONE wanted to come to SJU and no AAU coach wanted to send anyone to SJU thanks to Jarvis and Norm. So yes he took what he could and has talked up the program in every way possible. Lavin also knows his flaws as a coach and IMO has rectified this by going out and surrounding himself with a great staff. Lets not forget that NBA players now come to SJU from time to time to train due to our player development coach. In the past 4 years including the year he battled cancer, the team has progressed leaps and bounds no matter which way you look at it.

The problem is that this is NY and if we are not the top dog (Yankees, Giants) then who gives a shit right, this is a city where good enough is bullshit, where second place is the first loser.

Also keep in mind that in changing the country's mind to start sending their players here Laving has talked up this program in such a way where yes this team is thought of as much better than it really is.

Putting everything in perspective, we might not be #1 but we are in way better shape with Talent, recruiting, media attention, and overall state of the program than we have been in the past 15 years. So when you bitch and moan put everything in perspective and realize that things are getting better and its going to take more than 4 years to get back to 1985-1987 and I truly see a National championship here in the next 10 years 2024. This team IS getting better, this team WILL go on a win streak starting tomorrow.


Norm Roberts
2004–2005 9-18 3-13 13th
2005–2006 12-15 5-11 T-13th
2006–2007 16-15 7-9 11th
2007–2008 11-19 5-13 14th
2008–2009 16-18 6-12 13th CBI, First Round
2009–2010 17-16 6-12 13th NIT, First Round

Steve Lavin
2010–2011 21–12 12–6 5th NCAA Second Round
2011–2012 13–19 6–12 T–11th
2012–2013 17–16 8–10 11th NIT Second Round
2013-2014 9 - 6 0 - 3

Lavin's worst year so far is better than 3 out of 6 of Norm's years.
 
Why is Norm the basis of comparison? Just because Lavin is exceeding Norm's results, that doesn't mean he's doing a good job.

Not being crappy shouldn't be a defense for coach Lavin.

If my car is broke and I take it to a mechanic who gets it to start but the car still stalls out if you take it out of neutral ... has he done his job? Has he fixed my car? No.

Being better than bad isn't the same as doing well.
 
As fans, most were thrilled with the Lavin hire, with a bunch of sweet sixteens and elite eights. We read the blogs, followed the high school rankings, and watched Lavin hitting the recruiting target every time. A 3rd or 4th ranked first recruiting class. So 3 don't qualify and 1 transfers, and we're up against it. But it makes the next year, when Sampson re-signs and joins us, something to be excited about. The blogs say we beat out Kansas for him. We also get Branch, a lock down defender and top 50 in HS. Then Branch is hobbling and Harrison is suspended, so we're up against it. But Sanchez is cleared. We hear the coach-speak and the blogs. He would start on some NBA teams. Jordan picks us over Temple and UCLA, and we get excited for next year. Also Max transfers to SJU. He can't miss from 3 on yuotube, so we get excited for next year. We struggle early this year against some mediocre opposition. Many say we are just going through the motions, as it's tough to get up for lesser competition.

We get the better opposition, and lose to them all. And it all makes sense. I hang with an older crowd. Some former college players who knocked around the game for years, assistants in junior college. No big deal, but they know the game. I talk up our talent, and who Lavin beat out to get them. They laugh. If these guys were as good as you say, they tell me, they would be at Kentucky, Duke or Kansas. But we out recruited Kansas for Sampson. They laugh again, and say that if Kansas really coveted Sampson, he would be at Kansas. They need to fill out their bench too, and why not take a flyer on a high level athlete that can sit and learn from a good staff, and not be asked for much. So, they say, they and their handlers know that what Lavin is selling sounds good-they can start at SJU and be the man. But what about NBA ready Sanchez? They laugh at the story that he just wants to experience college life. They say he probably needs a season of college to showcase what he has for a chance at a career in Europe. If he was NBA ready, he would have signed years ago. We talk of Branch and Hooper. Couldn't get minutes at Texas A&M at Harvard? Forget the reasons you read. They couldn't get minutes because they weren't good enough.

So I ask them to watch some games. They would rather play bocce or go to the casino, but they watch to humor me. They say the same thing. Team is poorly coached and has no shooters. What did you expect from Lavin, they say. Couldn't coach then, can't coach now. And please don't make me watch them again, they say. Not good basketball.

And now, it all makes sense. But we are fans, so we lost objectivity. So what's the answer? Their advice-hire a coach with local roots that knows how to win and emphasizes the three point shot. No shooters want to come here, they say, since using the long ball has never been a part of the school's game plan. Shooters want to play for a coach that stresses ball movement and freeing up shooters for open shots. Can't win without shooters with the 3 point shot being part of the college game. Even marginal ex coaches in their 60's and 70's know that.
Click to expand...

While I do agree with you, lets take a step back and put all of this in perspective.

Lavin walked into a tough spot. he got given a team filled with all seniors and had zero time to recruit anyone. Also, NO ONE wanted to come to SJU and no AAU coach wanted to send anyone to SJU thanks to Jarvis and Norm. So yes he took what he could and has talked up the program in every way possible. Lavin also knows his flaws as a coach and IMO has rectified this by going out and surrounding himself with a great staff. Lets not forget that NBA players now come to SJU from time to time to train due to our player development coach. In the past 4 years including the year he battled cancer, the team has progressed leaps and bounds no matter which way you look at it.

The problem is that this is NY and if we are not the top dog (Yankees, Giants) then who gives a shit right, this is a city where good enough is bullshit, where second place is the first loser.

Also keep in mind that in changing the country's mind to start sending their players here Laving has talked up this program in such a way where yes this team is thought of as much better than it really is.

Putting everything in perspective, we might not be #1 but we are in way better shape with Talent, recruiting, media attention, and overall state of the program than we have been in the past 15 years. So when you bitch and moan put everything in perspective and realize that things are getting better and its going to take more than 4 years to get back to 1985-1987 and I truly see a National championship here in the next 10 years 2024. This team IS getting better, this team WILL go on a win streak starting tomorrow.


Norm Roberts
2004–2005 9-18 3-13 13th
2005–2006 12-15 5-11 T-13th
2006–2007 16-15 7-9 11th
2007–2008 11-19 5-13 14th
2008–2009 16-18 6-12 13th CBI, First Round
2009–2010 17-16 6-12 13th NIT, First Round

Steve Lavin
2010–2011 21–12 12–6 5th NCAA Second Round
2011–2012 13–19 6–12 T–11th
2012–2013 17–16 8–10 11th NIT Second Round
2013-2014 9 - 6 0 - 3

Lavin's worst year so far is better than 3 out of 6 of Norm's years.
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..and I don't think anyone in their right mind expected us to be top dog(or #1). I would have settled for Top 25 dog.
 
So let's get this straight - Lavin can't RECRUIT or COACH? I guess you guys who are upset are really stupid not to see that sometime between 2010 and now, right? I'm glad you finally figured it out, so you can be quiet when the team starts winning a few games.

If the focus of this post was, wow, I can't believe my expectations were so high, I'd be okay with the post. Instead, the focus is that some 80 year old former players would rather play canasta and shuffleboard because our players suck and Lavin puffed them up. The post essentially ripped every player that was mentioned as if these old men have some expertise. Well maybe they do, but the post essentially sounds like a not-so-old retiree smelling 80 year old jock straps and being glad the jocks talk to him as they go off to the casino and he stays home to watch basketball.
 
As fans, most were thrilled with the Lavin hire, with a bunch of sweet sixteens and elite eights. We read the blogs, followed the high school rankings, and watched Lavin hitting the recruiting target every time. A 3rd or 4th ranked first recruiting class. So 3 don't qualify and 1 transfers, and we're up against it. But it makes the next year, when Sampson re-signs and joins us, something to be excited about. The blogs say we beat out Kansas for him. We also get Branch, a lock down defender and top 50 in HS. Then Branch is hobbling and Harrison is suspended, so we're up against it. But Sanchez is cleared. We hear the coach-speak and the blogs. He would start on some NBA teams. Jordan picks us over Temple and UCLA, and we get excited for next year. Also Max transfers to SJU. He can't miss from 3 on yuotube, so we get excited for next year. We struggle early this year against some mediocre opposition. Many say we are just going through the motions, as it's tough to get up for lesser competition.

We get the better opposition, and lose to them all. And it all makes sense. I hang with an older crowd. Some former college players who knocked around the game for years, assistants in junior college. No big deal, but they know the game. I talk up our talent, and who Lavin beat out to get them. They laugh. If these guys were as good as you say, they tell me, they would be at Kentucky, Duke or Kansas. But we out recruited Kansas for Sampson. They laugh again, and say that if Kansas really coveted Sampson, he would be at Kansas. They need to fill out their bench too, and why not take a flyer on a high level athlete that can sit and learn from a good staff, and not be asked for much. So, they say, they and their handlers know that what Lavin is selling sounds good-they can start at SJU and be the man. But what about NBA ready Sanchez? They laugh at the story that he just wants to experience college life. They say he probably needs a season of college to showcase what he has for a chance at a career in Europe. If he was NBA ready, he would have signed years ago. We talk of Branch and Hooper. Couldn't get minutes at Texas A&M at Harvard? Forget the reasons you read. They couldn't get minutes because they weren't good enough.

So I ask them to watch some games. They would rather play bocce or go to the casino, but they watch to humor me. They say the same thing. Team is poorly coached and has no shooters. What did you expect from Lavin, they say. Couldn't coach then, can't coach now. And please don't make me watch them again, they say. Not good basketball.

And now, it all makes sense. But we are fans, so we lost objectivity. So what's the answer? Their advice-hire a coach with local roots that knows how to win and emphasizes the three point shot. No shooters want to come here, they say, since using the long ball has never been a part of the school's game plan. Shooters want to play for a coach that stresses ball movement and freeing up shooters for open shots. Can't win without shooters with the 3 point shot being part of the college game. Even marginal ex coaches in their 60's and 70's know that.
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While I do agree with you, lets take a step back and put all of this in perspective.

Lavin walked into a tough spot. he got given a team filled with all seniors and had zero time to recruit anyone. Also, NO ONE wanted to come to SJU and no AAU coach wanted to send anyone to SJU thanks to Jarvis and Norm. So yes he took what he could and has talked up the program in every way possible. Lavin also knows his flaws as a coach and IMO has rectified this by going out and surrounding himself with a great staff. Lets not forget that NBA players now come to SJU from time to time to train due to our player development coach. In the past 4 years including the year he battled cancer, the team has progressed leaps and bounds no matter which way you look at it.

The problem is that this is NY and if we are not the top dog (Yankees, Giants) then who gives a shit right, this is a city where good enough is bullshit, where second place is the first loser.

Also keep in mind that in changing the country's mind to start sending their players here Laving has talked up this program in such a way where yes this team is thought of as much better than it really is.

Putting everything in perspective, we might not be #1 but we are in way better shape with Talent, recruiting, media attention, and overall state of the program than we have been in the past 15 years. So when you bitch and moan put everything in perspective and realize that things are getting better and its going to take more than 4 years to get back to 1985-1987 and I truly see a National championship here in the next 10 years 2024. This team IS getting better, this team WILL go on a win streak starting tomorrow.


Norm Roberts
2004–2005 9-18 3-13 13th
2005–2006 12-15 5-11 T-13th
2006–2007 16-15 7-9 11th
2007–2008 11-19 5-13 14th
2008–2009 16-18 6-12 13th CBI, First Round
2009–2010 17-16 6-12 13th NIT, First Round

Steve Lavin
2010–2011 21–12 12–6 5th NCAA Second Round
2011–2012 13–19 6–12 T–11th
2012–2013 17–16 8–10 11th NIT Second Round
2013-2014 9 - 6 0 - 3

Lavin's worst year so far is better than 3 out of 6 of Norm's years.
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For the record, 2011-2012 is on Dunlap, not Lavin. It was such a poor performance coaching that Dunlap got an NBA job at the end of that season. So then in Lavin's two years as head coach, he won more games in his worst season than Norm won in conference any single season of 6. His record of 20-16 compares with Jay Wrights early record at Nova.
 
Why is Norm the basis of comparison? Just because Lavin is exceeding Norm's results, that doesn't mean he's doing a good job.

Not being crappy shouldn't be a defense for coach Lavin.

If my car is broke and I take it to a mechanic who gets it to start but the car still stalls out if you take it out of neutral ... has he done his job? Has he fixed my car? No.

Being better than bad isn't the same as doing well.
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I dont really agree with your analogy, don;t think it relates as much as you do here. I'm not saying Laving is a Pitino, Boeheim, Wooden or even Lou C but he is way better than the Norm Roberts of the CBB world. I would put Lavin somewhere in the Jay Wright range but more eloquent.
 
I think Lavin is an excellent recruiter but average coach regarding stategy, game prep etc. I never said we should fire him. Truth is there is a lot of BB to be played this year. We will see. I hope we are a perennial top 20 team and next year I and others will be singing Lavins praise.He hasn't demonstrated that he is in the Jay Wright class, so far IMO and he was not hired and paid all that money to be comparable to Roberts.
 
I think Lavin is an excellent recruiter but average coach regarding stategy, game prep etc. I never said we should fire him. Truth is there is a lot of BB to be played this year. We will see. I hope we are a perennial top 20 team and next year I and others will be singing Lavins praise.He hasn't demonstrated that he is in the Jay Wright class, so far IMO and he was not hired and paid all that money to be comparable to Roberts.
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Right. It makes no sense to use Roberts as the baseline when you are paying Lavin triple (or quadruple, according to some) the amount of money.
 
So let's get this straight - Lavin can't RECRUIT or COACH? I guess you guys who are upset are really stupid not to see that sometime between 2010 and now, right? I'm glad you finally figured it out, so you can be quiet when the team starts winning a few games./
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Yeah I agree Lavin is this great recruiter, but one question Beast why only 1 recruit for 13, and none so far for next?
Shouldn`t he want a balanced roster of all classes, maybe he wants an extention before signing more recruits?
Do we give it to him? I hope not.

I`d rather a much better coach that would get 3 star recruits, atleast he could coach them up and make them better in a few years.
Instead of a top recruiter that can`t coach good and can`t coach them up.

To someone else who said maybe we`ll be a top20 team next year, with what? The same exact team as this year minus Sanchez?
Yeah we could do that but our only shot at that is to get a top X`s and O`s coach at the level of Dunlap. Whitesell is no Dunlap.
I know I`ll hear oh these kids will improve more next year, but how? Will we bring in a guru that will teach these kids how to shoot?
 
Lavin is not going anywhere. He was put into a difficult spot with having to recruit
almost an entire team. That alone requires 6 - 7 years to get your numbers back on track.
It's not just one cycle. He is great with the NYCity media and his players. Honestly, he may need
some help with x's and o's but he is a very good face for SJU and our program.

Show some respect to Steve Lavin and his program and St. John's. No one should ever call for someone to be fired
because of a few losses. Think positive. Three losses to ranked teams and were in the game but didn't finish.
They will make a run. Hardest thing to do is to be patient.
 
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