HOF elections - Jim Kaat?
- Thread starter beast of the east
- Start date
In regard to Golden Glove awards, they did not start until 1957 (one for both leagues starting in 1958 one for each league) from what my dad who grew up a Brooklyn Dodger fan believed, Hodges was the best he saw defensively until Keith Hernandez,BrookJersey Redmen post=445843 said:
The Hall of Fame in general has been watered down. The previous approach with the veterans committee got players buddies in. This new approach will help guys who stay around the game like Kaat and also the need to address diversity. I thought these committees were suppossed to address the outlier that was missed not put in 6 guys at a time. The Hall of Fame will become more questionable if Bonds and Clemens don't get in and we continue to see players who were clearly not their equals admitted.
Last note, as analytics take over the game, compilers who put up numbers (like Sutton and Yastremski) are rewarded far more than those who were the best for a shorter period (Dale Murphy and Don Mattingly). I personally like the guys who were the best if even for a shorter period of time and don't hit Historical measuring sticks like 3000 hits or strikeouts.
Last edited:
beast of the east
Active member
Kaat won about 54% of his games.section10 post=445911 said:
I'm not sure you know Sandy Koufax' journey with the Dodgers. Koufax was a bonus baby, signed in 1955, which required he be put on a major league roster right away for the season. Walter Alston was irate that here he was trying to win a pennant and they sent him a 20 year old kid who didn't pitch in college or high school (he was a first baseman at Lafayette HS and at Cincinnati) When pitchers went down to injury his freshman year, he begged his coach to let him pitch, but the coach declined. The next spring his coach relented, and before he threw an inning, scouts heard about this amazing arm and a bidding war ensued Alston hated Koufax and was likely anti-Semitic based on comments attributed to him. The first three years Koufax hardly pitched. There were games he threw great, and then Alston wouldn't use him again for 2 weeks and he'd be wild. Until 1960 he was still used as a spot starter and in relief. At the end of that season he went to Dodger management and said to either make him a starter or trade him, else he would retire. Koufax was totally someone who would stand up to his word.
The Yankees had recruited him, and they sent a Jewish scout to try to influence him to sign with them. Koufax was so upset, he wanted nothing to do with the Yankees, and instead signed with the Dodgers.
Once a starter from 1961-1966 Koufax was by far the best in baseball in that period.
Here's a trivia question: How many inning did Sandy Koufax pitch in HS, college, and the minor leagues. Answer: Zero
beast of the east
Active member
Jane Leavy wrote an excellent biography on Koufax, but doesn't give credit to Sherry for improving control. She attributed early wildness to irregular use. Thanks for pointing that out.
Kaat was a fine pitcher, nothing more. Not an all time great.
FWIW, Bill janetshek, SJU chair of BOT, also part owner of the Marlins, is a major donor of the baseball HOF. I think there is a video of him and his dad on their website.
Many of us appear to be baseball purists. Cooperstown has almost a sacred feel to it, but now also maybe a bit of nostalgia for older fans.
For many of us. Our youth was consumed in part by long days of unorganized pickup ball, baseball in greener places, softball where asphalt ruled. For less than 2 bucks you could get admission to a major league park, pack a lunch, travel subways without parental oversight, and enjoy glorious days keeping score, rooting, soaking up sun and almost inhaling fresh cut swaths of grass and perfect beautiful infield. We didn't care so much if the Mets or Yankees were good or bad, they were our heroes and we consumed and memorized their stats off the backs of cardboard cards.
We were smart enough to know that we were in the presence of baseball royalty when Clemente, McCovey, Banks. Kaline, Yaz. or a host of others came to town.
When we ventured into opposing enemy lairs of Yankee or Shea Stadium it was hard to hate a Mantle, Seaver, Koosman, Hodges, Maris, etc. They were big league stars and we admired them.
All this seems to matter less in an era of streaming video content and social media. Maybe just maybe we were born at the right time, when the right things mattered but we all aspired for a better world.
Kaat was a fine pitcher, nothing more. Not an all time great.
FWIW, Bill janetshek, SJU chair of BOT, also part owner of the Marlins, is a major donor of the baseball HOF. I think there is a video of him and his dad on their website.
Many of us appear to be baseball purists. Cooperstown has almost a sacred feel to it, but now also maybe a bit of nostalgia for older fans.
For many of us. Our youth was consumed in part by long days of unorganized pickup ball, baseball in greener places, softball where asphalt ruled. For less than 2 bucks you could get admission to a major league park, pack a lunch, travel subways without parental oversight, and enjoy glorious days keeping score, rooting, soaking up sun and almost inhaling fresh cut swaths of grass and perfect beautiful infield. We didn't care so much if the Mets or Yankees were good or bad, they were our heroes and we consumed and memorized their stats off the backs of cardboard cards.
We were smart enough to know that we were in the presence of baseball royalty when Clemente, McCovey, Banks. Kaline, Yaz. or a host of others came to town.
When we ventured into opposing enemy lairs of Yankee or Shea Stadium it was hard to hate a Mantle, Seaver, Koosman, Hodges, Maris, etc. They were big league stars and we admired them.
All this seems to matter less in an era of streaming video content and social media. Maybe just maybe we were born at the right time, when the right things mattered but we all aspired for a better world.
Beast - Baseball has always been my favorite sport. It is the chess of athletics. I am a little younger then you but I played softball on concrete with an occasional fight breaking out and stickball in parking lots where we hit a lot of cars. Eventually we got smart enough to paint a strike zone on a park wall to simulate a real at bat. It was kind of like an early video game. I remember playing this at a relatively young age even after it got dark and the light was dim (our eyesight was much better then) while other kids were drinking beer and smoking pot.
I played high school baseball in the PSAL and while I wasn't on great teams, I occasionally got to play against some talented players which was really enjoyable as several got drafted and moved on to the minor leagues I could have played Division III baseball but made the decision to focus on school and other activities like drinking, joining a fraternity and chasing girls. I still played intramural softball every year and we would win the championships. Even after college I played in softball leagues and later had the opportunity to coach my son play. I taught him to keep score when he was very little and a lot of people gave strange looks as there was this seven year old with a scorecard. Sometimes I wish that we had the training methods they have today and the weather to play organized baseball all year round like they do in California.
As for going to games. I started out at a Yankee fan and when I moved to Queens at an early age eventually gravitated towards the Mets as getting to Shea Stadium was a lot easier. I would take the bus and subway with my brother as a very young kid like you said. I loved Shea Stadium as ugly and dysfunctional as it was and had so many great days there with so many great people. I didn't care if I sat in the top row of the stadium, or if we could "sneak" down to the box seats. The colors of the seats Orange, Blue, Green and Red will always stick with me. I also always enjoyed the occasional trip to beautiful Yankee Stadium.
I have been fortunate to have the money as an adult to attend many games at Citified which is a palace in my opinion and travel the country to take in major league games and attend more minor league games then I can even recall and to my wife's discontent. Unfortunately with COVID and some health problems, I only attended one Met game this season and one Cyclones game. I hope I can get back to the stadiums more often as even with the awful shifts, the strikeout or home runs mentality, the lack of African American players and so many other negative changes it is still one of my greatest joys.
While this is a redmen basketball forum and I love the team and the game, I am always happy to engage in a good baseball conversation. So it doesn't matter what our opinions on Jim Kaat who I was very fond of are, it is still a lot of fun so thank you to everyone who participates in these conversations. I will leave you with one of my favorite Springsteen songs, particularly its first verse.
I played high school baseball in the PSAL and while I wasn't on great teams, I occasionally got to play against some talented players which was really enjoyable as several got drafted and moved on to the minor leagues I could have played Division III baseball but made the decision to focus on school and other activities like drinking, joining a fraternity and chasing girls. I still played intramural softball every year and we would win the championships. Even after college I played in softball leagues and later had the opportunity to coach my son play. I taught him to keep score when he was very little and a lot of people gave strange looks as there was this seven year old with a scorecard. Sometimes I wish that we had the training methods they have today and the weather to play organized baseball all year round like they do in California.
As for going to games. I started out at a Yankee fan and when I moved to Queens at an early age eventually gravitated towards the Mets as getting to Shea Stadium was a lot easier. I would take the bus and subway with my brother as a very young kid like you said. I loved Shea Stadium as ugly and dysfunctional as it was and had so many great days there with so many great people. I didn't care if I sat in the top row of the stadium, or if we could "sneak" down to the box seats. The colors of the seats Orange, Blue, Green and Red will always stick with me. I also always enjoyed the occasional trip to beautiful Yankee Stadium.
I have been fortunate to have the money as an adult to attend many games at Citified which is a palace in my opinion and travel the country to take in major league games and attend more minor league games then I can even recall and to my wife's discontent. Unfortunately with COVID and some health problems, I only attended one Met game this season and one Cyclones game. I hope I can get back to the stadiums more often as even with the awful shifts, the strikeout or home runs mentality, the lack of African American players and so many other negative changes it is still one of my greatest joys.
While this is a redmen basketball forum and I love the team and the game, I am always happy to engage in a good baseball conversation. So it doesn't matter what our opinions on Jim Kaat who I was very fond of are, it is still a lot of fun so thank you to everyone who participates in these conversations. I will leave you with one of my favorite Springsteen songs, particularly its first verse.
Last edited:
There's stats and then there's the smell test for those who we saw guys play. Being a Yankee fan growing up, I saw more American league pitchers. Jim Kaat definitely did not pass the smell test. I'd argue that Don Sutton didn't either, but his stats put him in rare territory, so he deserves to be in IMO. There are always exceptions to the stat bars. I remember when the conversation came up about whether or not Dave Kingman would merit consideration for the hall if he hit 500 homers. Then considered automatic for election. The answer; Absolutely not!!!
Last edited:
beast of the east
Active member
Andrew post=445976 said:
What frat were you in?
Nolan Ryan is both the most overrated pitcher of all time and the most underappreciated.
No one would pick him to secure a Game 7. He'd strike out 15 and walk 10.
But his durability is the stuff of legend - a career that will never be repeated again, certainly not in this age of baseball.
No one would pick him to secure a Game 7. He'd strike out 15 and walk 10.
But his durability is the stuff of legend - a career that will never be repeated again, certainly not in this age of baseball.