Do we really need a center?

Until we hear from the NCAA regarding his waiver I think we need a back up to Keita.
It's one thing for Mullin to have all the pieces next season with Heron, Ponds, Simon, Figueroa etc. but let's see if he can mold them them into a "team" and play defense.
If he can't do that with these players he never will.
 
[quote="Class of 72" post=288080]Until we hear from the NCAA regarding his waiver I think we need a back up to Keita.
It's one thing for Mullin to have all the pieces next season with Heron, Ponds, Simon, Figueroa etc. but let's see if he can mold them them into a "team" and play defense.
If he can't do that with these players he never will.[/quote] How are we going to get a backup to Keita at this stage of the game, w no scholies left?
 
[quote="richard A Steinfeld" post=288081][quote="Class of 72" post=288080]Until we hear from the NCAA regarding his waiver I think we need a back up to Keita.
It's one thing for Mullin to have all the pieces next season with Heron, Ponds, Simon, Figueroa etc. but let's see if he can mold them them into a "team" and play defense.
If he can't do that with these players he never will.[/quote] How are we going to get a backup to Keita at this stage of the game, w no scholies left?[/quote]
They won’t
 
[quote="Paultzman" post=288082][quote="richard A Steinfeld" post=288081][quote="Class of 72" post=288080]Until we hear from the NCAA regarding his waiver I think we need a back up to Keita.
It's one thing for Mullin to have all the pieces next season with Heron, Ponds, Simon, Figueroa etc. but let's see if he can mold them them into a "team" and play defense.
If he can't do that with these players he never will.[/quote] How are we going to get a backup to Keita at this stage of the game, w no scholies left?[/quote]
They won’t[/quote] You never know . Maybe there is an Andre Drummond type player out there who will walk on :) It doesn’t cost any money to dream.
 
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[quote="richard A Steinfeld" post=288081][quote="Class of 72" post=288080]Until we hear from the NCAA regarding his waiver I think we need a back up to Keita.
It's one thing for Mullin to have all the pieces next season with Heron, Ponds, Simon, Figueroa etc. but let's see if he can mold them them into a "team" and play defense.
If he can't do that with these players he never will.[/quote] How are we going to get a backup to Keita at this stage of the game, w no scholies left?[/quote]

We are St. John's! We don’t need no stinkin' scholies as long as we have a player to sacrifice.

tumblr_mj3frzAhAH1s5vvgpo1_400.gif
[/quote]
 
In my opinion, a month ago, this roster had a huge whole and the off-season was a huuuuge fail. I felt strongly the only thing that could remedy the disaster was a BE-ready big man. What I didn't consider, was landing a 5-star talent like Heron. Heron could mitigate the big man void, but no one knows if he will be eligible. As far as the newbies go, it is more likely that they will not be high impact players in their first BE season.

From a philosophical stand point, the devaluing of big bodies drives me nuts. I am tired of being out-rebounded and pushed around in the paint. I am patiently awaiting word on the hardship waiver. But, in response to the thread's title......yes, every teams needs muscle.
 
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Muscle, but not necessarily a center. Last year our only true muscle was Clark and Bashir, both forwards.
 
You also need height for low post defense against talented tall bigs. If we ask Clark to primarily defend those guys, he will spend more time on the bench in foul trouble than on the court. This is where Ketia has to come in. There may be games where based on other teams personnel we can get by with Clark playing the five, but there will be games where that won't work.
I know it's an extreme example, but we would never have beaten Duke last year w/o the 6'11 Owens to defend against the twin towers Bagley and Carter for 37 minutes. Clark played only 21 minutes and fouled out in that game. I think we can get by with one true center, but we do need that one guy to play big minutes against the teams that have offensively talented and tall bigs.
 
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We obviously are talking about two drastically different teams with or without Heron. I put the players next to each other. You can debate who will start and who will be the first guys off the bench will be but what stands out is that we are replacing Ahmed and Owens with Keita and Figueroa. I will let others pass judgment on this exchange but we need to hope it is at least as effective. Our bench now adds forwards Williams and Earlingon instead of Amar and Keita when he was allowed to play which has to be an upgrade but how much remains to be seen. The big upgrade is at guard with Dixon and Williams. This season the team starts without Lovett which will help and it played competitively without him most of the time so I definitely see an improvement particularly with the softer schedule and a likely weaker conference. This could be an NCAA team but I wouldn't bet the house on it. Now when you add Heron who is a proven star and will be one of the best players in the conference. Besides the numbers he gives you there is every reason to believe that he will make all of the other players on the team better including Keita and the reserves. Now Dixon and Figueroa stand out as the start of a strong bench and there is a lot less pressure on the other guys.

I saw Keita play 3 minutes in the elite eight game at the Garden and while that clearly is not enough time to make any real evaluation, he looked like an athletic big that should fit in quite nicely, particularly on the team in the last column where we mostly need him to rebound and make a few dunks and layups. The team with Heron should make the NCAA's and could be a tough out in the early rounds if thinks gel. I agree with the poster who said we need to get something out of Williams even if its a few minutes a game.

As for the center debate, of course we would be a better team in either scenario with a solid fifth year guy that can play a little but most teams hoping to make the NCAA's have flaws.
Ponds Ponds Ponds
Simon Simon Simon
Clark Clark Clark
Ahmed Figueroa Heron
Owens Keita Keita

Trimble Trimble Trimble
Amar Roberts Roberts
Keita Earlington Earlington
Dixon Dixon
Williams Williams
Figueroa
 
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[quote="NCJohnnie" post=288124]You also need height for low post defense against talented tall bigs. If we ask Clark to primarily defend those guys, he will spend more time on the bench in foul trouble than on the court. This is where Ketia has to come in. There may be games where based on other teams personnel we can get by with Clark playing the five, but there will be games where that won't work.
I know it's an extreme example, but we would never have beaten Duke last year w/o the 6'11 Owens to defend against the twin towers Bagley and Carter for 37 minutes. Clark played only 21 minutes and fouled out in that game. I think we can get by with one true center, but we do need that one guy to play big minutes against the teams that have offensively talented and tall bigs.[/quote] Keata is a lot stronger than Owens and I don’t think he will be insisting on being the focal point of our offense. IMO he will help us more as an inside presence and being able to guard opponents Centers. That said, it would have been nice if Owens stayed.
 
I had a neighbor who played college ball, and whose son was a pretty good HS player in his own right. I remember running into him on the AAU circuit once, and watching a game together he commented, "Basketball is a game that is pretty unforgiving when it comes to lack of height"

Yes, the game has evolved. Big men can handle the ball in the open court, shoot from three, and play away from the basket. In college, great teams with some depth can get away with not going 6'8 and above across their front line, and can create problems for opposing defenses that aren't as agile.

All that being said, the preference is to have big guys who can rebound, and who aren't giving away 40 pounds and 6 inches against 6ft 11" centers . Ponds may have outrebounded Owens, but other than saying Ponds was a good rebounder for his size, size less about Ponds and more about Owens inability to be dominant paint player.

Yes, you can win with a deep and talented team without dominant big men, but the preference is to have a center who has size, strength, and some ability.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=288134]I had a neighbor who played college ball, and whose son was a pretty good HS player in his own right. I remember running into him on the AAU circuit once, and watching a game together he commented, "Basketball is a game that is pretty unforgiving when it comes to lack of height"

Yes, the game has evolved. Big men can handle the ball in the open court, shoot from three, and play away from the basket. In college, great teams with some depth can get away with not going 6'8 and above across their front line, and can create problems for opposing defenses that aren't as agile.

All that being said, the preference is to have big guys who can rebound, and who aren't giving away 40 pounds and 6 inches against 6ft 11" centers . Ponds may have outrebounded Owens, but other than saying Ponds was a good rebounder for his size, size less about Ponds and more about Owens inability to be dominant paint player.

Yes, you can win with a deep and talented team without dominant big men, but the preference is to have a center who has size, strength, and some ability.[/quote]

You definitely can't coach height. I would have to go back through recent history to find teams that were small and successful in college. In the NBA the Warriors play most of the game without a true center. I realize Durant is at least 6'9 and has a wingspan of a 7' but he certainly isn't a center. The other four that get most of the minutes are Green 6'7, Iguedala 6'6, Thompson 6"7 and Curry 6"3. I think that is how Mullin sees the game.
 
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You can't consider us a small team.Ft line can go 6-5- 6-8,6-9 6-10 guards 6-2 6-6 6-4 We have so many good shooters that really rebound well,that a true center will not be an issue. Many true centers become a liabilty in speed ,ball handling and foul shooting etc
 
You can win small, you can win big; it is about players, not size. Does a tall player who can play have certain advantages, certainly. My favorite team of all time, the NY Knicks of 1969-1970 -

Starting 5 -
Willis Reed 6'9''
Dave Debusschere 6'6''
Bill Bradley 6'5'
Walt Frazier 6'4'''
Dick Barnett 6'4''

Principal reserves
Cazzie Russell 6'5''
Mike Riordan 6'4''
Dave Stallworth 6'7''

Other reserves (got some court time)
Nate Bowman 6'10''
Don May 6'4''

Very small team by any standard - league with Chamberlain, Jabbar to throw out a couple of names. Height is a good thing, not arguing it isn't, but having players who can play and play as a team is much more important. There are others, Cowens' Celtic teams were small with forwards who couldn't jump but could rebound just to name another. The first UCLA championship team with Walt Hazzard was very small if I remember right. Aging myself with the teams I reference but there it is....................................
 
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Logen wrote: You can win small, you can win big; it is about players, not size. Does a tall player who can play have certain advantages, certainly. My favorite team of all time, the NY Knicks of 1969-1970 -

Starting 5 -
Willis Reed 6'9''
Dave Debusschere 6'6''
Bill Bradley 6'5'
Walt Frazier 6'4'''
Dick Barnett 6'4''

Principal reserves
Cazzie Russell 6'5''
Mike Riordan 6'4''
Dave Stallworth 6'7''

Other reserves (got some court time)
Nate Bowman 6'10''
Don May 6'4''

Very small team by any standard - league with Chamberlain, Jabbar to throw out a couple of names. Height is a good thing, not arguing it isn't, but having players who can play and play as a team is much more important. There are others, Cowens' Celtic teams were small with forwards who couldn't jump but could rebound just to name another. The first UCLA championship team with Walt Hazzard was very small if I remember right. Aging myself with the teams I reference but there it is...................................

Logen, that 1969-1970 Knick team is also my favorite team of all time. In fact, the only other sports team that comes close to SJU in terms of my allegiance over the years is the Knicks. It's probably been harder being a Knick fan than a Johnnie for the past 18 or so years, but neither has been great. I have fond memories of watching the Knicks - Bullets playoff series that year on cable TV in a bar on the East side of NYC just over the 59th street bridge from Queens as an underage 17 year old.

In terms of the whole do you need a center argument though I'd say this. Willis Reed was 6'9 and 235 lbs and while he was undersized in comparison to Wilt & Kareem (everyone was), he was a center by position all through college and the pros and comparable in size to the Knicks two biggest Eastern Conference rival centers during his best years , Russell/Cowens for the Celts and Wes Unseld for the Bullets. Reed played 38 mpg that year and Nate Bowman another 6'10 natural center played 9 mpg - in other words, you had natural centers playing virtually the whole game. Of course those were the days where you had classic position players C, PF, SF, SG & PG, which is not as much the case these days. However, while I agree small ball can work in the college game, I think of small ball as 4 wings/guards and a legitimate big (such as Keita). I just am not aware of any recent examples of successful college teams comprised of only wings and guards. Maybe I am mistaken and not trying to be argumentative.
 
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[quote="usguard" post=288141]You can't consider us a small team.Ft line can go 6-5- 6-8,6-9 6-10 guards 6-2 6-6 6-4 We have so many good shooters that really rebound well,that a true center will not be an issue. Many true centers become a liabilty in speed ,ball handling and foul shooting etc[/quote]

Am I missing someone? Who is 6'10"?

Josh Roberts 6'8"
Sedee Kieta 6'9"
 
[quote="JohnnyFan" post=288164][quote="usguard" post=288141]You can't consider us a small team.Ft line can go 6-5- 6-8,6-9 6-10 guards 6-2 6-6 6-4 We have so many good shooters that really rebound well,that a true center will not be an issue. Many true centers become a liabilty in speed ,ball handling and foul shooting etc[/quote]
V
Am I missing someone? Who is 6'10"?
Josh Roberts 6'8"
Sedee Kieta 6'9"[/quote]

The 6’10” guy is the mystery Grad Big we never got...but we did get a terrific 6’5” 5* guard/wing instead!
 
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you can win small but you absolutely cant win when your rebound numbers are disgusting.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. We sucked rebounding and in assists.

That flat out needs to change
 
[quote="mjmaherjr" post=288166]you can win small but you absolutely cant win when your rebound numbers are disgusting.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. We sucked rebounding and in assists.

That flat out needs to change[/quote]

Think assists will go up, and expect that to really go up if Heron is eligible. Just having more scorers should make that total go higher.
 
[quote="mjmaherjr" post=288166]you can win small but you absolutely cant win when your rebound numbers are disgusting.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. We sucked rebounding and in assists.

That flat out needs to change[/quote]

Oh we agree on that Mike.
Last year, we had a -5.9 rebounding gap per game, And i think ranked 335th of 351 Div 1 teams.
Putrid.
I think Keita will be a significant improvement over Owens in that regard, and I expect Figgy and (hopefully) Heron to position themselves much better in 2018-19, than Clark or Ahmed or Owens did last season.
The rebounding gap should be less lethal, given hotter shooting, more intense D (by Figgy & Heron & Simon & Ponds & Clark & Williams & Trimble), and more helping out by a flurry of guards / wings, including Ponds, Simon, Heron, Figueroa, Dixon, Trimble & Williams.
Could be an incredibly exciting year.
Sure the heck hoping that'll be the case at any rate!
Lets go Johnnies.
 
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